Fishman Ellipse Matrix or LR Baggs Anthem?

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

Hi All

Probably a question discussed many times...

I'm looking to install a blended mic system in my latest dreadnought build to try to at least capture the essence of the acoustic tone through an amp

My previous three acoustic builds have used the Shadow Doubleplay - which is fine if you want just an amplified sound...but it's more electric than acoustic.

My present contenders are both mic blend systems, the Fishman Ellipse Matrix and the LR Baggs Anthem. With the mic type and fixing position being so different, any views to which gives the most 'natural' sound?

Also, there seems to be a trend towards dropping the piezo bit altogether and blending with transducers, etc.. Again, any views, folks?

Teyeplayer · July 2019

I had the LR baggs lyric (so the mic half of the anthem) on a Martin 000 a while back. It was ok, although I found very few sound men who could eq it accurately and as a result, I never felt I was getting the best of it -it was always a little too boxy.

Will be be very interested to see what you go with and how you feel about it when installed as I’ve toyed with the same dilemma for my Eastman.

jiff41 · July 2019

I've had an Anthem fitted to my Martin D35 for a while & it sounds great, very natural. Our lady vocalist has a Fishman undersaddle & mic (Can't remember the name of it?) fitted to her Martin which she isn't very happy with & asked me to see if I could make it sound better I tried moving the mic around as it's a gooseneck sort but it didn't make much difference so in the end I gave up & now she uses her old acoustic with a Piezo bug in it & she prefers the sound so I would say the L R Baggs is better?,, Purely a personal view!

Fuengi · July 2019

What's the K&K one that seems to get universally good reviews, the Pure Mini I think?

GTC · July 2019

I recently acquired an IK Multimedia Acoustic Stage pro - which provides a microphone / transducer which clips onto the soundhole of virtually any guitar. It also provides a digital as well as an analogue amp output. Sound quality is very good IMO, with a genuine acoustic tone.

I fitted a K&K Pure Mini (transducer style) to my BSG A-Pro, and that is very good if you want a simple fixed, battery free solution.

I have an LR Baggs Anthem on My K.Yairi Parlour - and I do not find the acoustic tone as natural as either of the above

Lewy · July 2019

Teyeplayer said:

I had the LR baggs lyric (so the mic half of the anthem) on a Martin 000 a while back. It was ok, although I found very few sound men who could eq it accurately and as a result, I never felt I was getting the best of it -it was always a little too boxy.

Exactly my experience with the Lyric too. Weird mid frequencies that are fiddly to do anything with.

If you specifically want a mic blend, I’d go with the K&K one because at least with that system, the thing that’s getting blended with the mic also sounds good (I.e. bridgeplate transducers, not nasty sounding under saddle piezos).

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

Some very helpful views and experiences here, folks. Much appreciated!

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

The K&K Pure Mini is certainly an impressive transducer system and I agree does seem to have the most natural sound of them all.

Never thought about it before, but presumably in the same way that it can be incorporated with a mic through, say, the Trinity preamp system, do you reckon it could be used instead of the undersaddle piezo in the L R Baggs Anthem system?

Clearly I would need to make sure they are not both fighting for the same real-estate on the bridge-plate...but I suppose that is the advantage of building your own

I could even build in the L R Baggs piezo in anyway and fit a mini jack to the Pure Mini so I can plug in either and compare the piezo with the Pure Mini then use whichever sounds best.

Probably a certain kind of madness but I'm thinking maybe no harm in trying? What do you reckon?

TimmyO · July 2019

iirc the Anthem electronics mix them.suchbthatbtue mic low end is dumped hence not so boomy as the lyric alone - you effectively get the piezoelectric for the low end (where they sound fine - no quack at those frequencies) and the mic for higher freqs

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

TimmyO said:

iirc the Anthem electronics mix them.suchbthatbtue mic low end is dumped hence not so boomy as the lyric alone - you effectively get the piezoelectric for the low end (where they sound fine - no quack at those frequencies) and the mic for higher freqs

Yes - good point. Maybe I'm trying to solve a problem that isn't there in the first place...wouldn't be a first time

The other (pricey) option, might be to actually go for the K&K Trinity system - that is, the Pure Mini mixable with a K&K matched mic. But once I'm at that kind of price level, would and alternative of a side mounted 3 ch EQ preamp system from Fishman or L R Baggs (also generally pricey) be able to tame the overall sound? Dunno

I'm probably barking up the wrong tree, but it's just that - on all the acoustics, hybrids and electrics with piezo bridges I've owned - it has always been the piezo that has been limited and yet unduly influenced the overall sound. Might just be me, of course...

Lewy · July 2019

Piezos are the worst and there’s just no need in this day and age to have to make that sound.

Personally I’d just go with the Pure Mini and not worry about a blended system. It’ll sound 90% as good for much less expense and gubbins inside the guitar...

camf · July 2019

Schatten HFN seems to get a lot of love as the fave acoustic pickup de jour. Worth checking out user experiences on https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=534436

camf · July 2019

I'm about to pull the trigger on one as they're quite reasonably priced too.

Teyeplayer · July 2019

Trying to work this out, but isn’t the schatten hfn pretty much the same as the baggs ibeam?

GTC · July 2019

Inspired by this thread I tried blending the input of the IK Multimedia Acoustic Stage Pro clip-on soundhole mic with the output from the fitted K&K Pure Mini (via the Stage Pro Aux input) on my BSG A-Pro. Very impressed with the results and flexibility in tone.

A sort of similar wireless (but significantly more expensive) alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo. I know someone who has got one of these recently and has been raving (positively) about it

TimmyO · July 2019

GTC said:

alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo

I don't think you can actually buy those any more - they started off as a kickstarter thing, got widely reviewed at that point, and now their site lists a limited number of stockists around the world none of whom seem to stock them

TheBigDipper · July 2019

I use the standard K&K Pure Mini on a L'Arrivee and a Brook. I'm playing solo or with another acoustic player. TBH, if you're sitting in an electric band mic, just a magnetic soundhole pickup is a good choice.

Plugging into a preamp helps improve the sound of the K&K from decent to very decent (IMHO). Nothing seems to sound like a guitar in the room except for a guitar in the room, properly mic'd. A non-starter for the gigs I do! I've recently bought a TC Helicon Play Acoustic pedal (for voice effects and guitar effects) and that's looking quite promising. It has a BodyRez feature that augments the sound of the pickup, which is quite pleasing to use.

GTC · July 2019

TimmyO said:

GTC said:

alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo

I don't think you can actually buy those any more - they started off as a kickstarter thing, got widely reviewed at that point, and now their site lists a limited number of stockists around the world none of whom seem to stock them

The person I was referring to ordered one direct from their website about 6 weeks ago and it was delivered (to Slovenia) in a week. On their website, you can still buy direct.

TimmyO · July 2019

GTC said:

TimmyO said:

GTC said:

alternative to the Stage Pro is the CloudVocal iSolo

I don't think you can actually buy those any more - they started off as a kickstarter thing, got widely reviewed at that point, and now their site lists a limited number of stockists around the world none of whom seem to stock them

The person I was referring to ordered one direct from their website about 6 weeks ago and it was delivered (to Slovenia) in a week. On their website, you can still buy direct.

ah, cool

camf · July 2019

Teyeplayer said:

Trying to work this out, but isn’t the schatten hfn pretty much the same as the baggs ibeam?

I don’t know much about the ibeam but the reviews and comments on the Schatten seem very favourable. I’ve worked out a plan B so I probably won’t need to buy one now so I can’t give any personal thoughts on it.

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

OK - maintaining my reputation as being on the crazy side of crackers, I'm going to take a gamble.

Finding the very tempting K&K Trinity Onboard system pretty unobtainable and/or very, very expensive, and then going through dozens of reviews and YouTube clips, of the offerings of L R Baggs and Fishman and a number of others, and then adding to those the learned responses from you fine folk above, I'm going to go 'off-piste'

The guitar is destined for a pro-player, but one who is also not afraid to experiment. He does a lot of studio work and live work - which, in any event, probably will each need a different solution.

So what I've been looking for is a decent internal mic system AND the widely loved K&K Pure Mini - both going through a blendable onboard pre-amp (and hence the Trinity idea had it been a bit more in reach)

So I've then looked at mixing up systems and suppliers. But - either for conceptual or electronics reasons - there may be issues. For example, the Pure Mini may not like going through someone else's pre-amp as a pseudo piezo. So I may need an actual piezo option anyway. Additionally the studio vs live differences might call for the option of both of these different approaches.

So my off-piste gamble is:

The L R Baggs Anthem mic/piezo system and a K&K Pure Mini transducer-pickup

I'll try to get some info from the makers on the relative outputs and impedances of the Pure mini and the Anthem piezo but I plan to either make these two switchable, or - if physics allows - even blendable.

The holy grail stuff probably won't work, but I can always revert to either Pure Mini + Anthem mic, or just the stock Anthem piezo/mic system and all the experiment will have cost me is the cost of the Pure Mini.

By the way, the build diary is here, if anyone is interested in such stuff.

I will feed back to you all the sonic results, - be they good or be they bad

Lewy · July 2019

JP Guitars has the Trinity Pro in stock and it's less than the cost of even the SL version of the Anthem plus a Pure Mini....

https://www.jp-guitars.co.uk/sales/pickups_and_amplification/kandk/pickup_and_mic_systems/trinity_pro_mini.htm

TimmyO · July 2019

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place?

Lewy · July 2019

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place?

Very good point!

Teyeplayer · July 2019

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place?

Yes I’d wondered this. Could the k&k transducers be placed nearby and still have the same impact?

Lewy · July 2019

Teyeplayer said:

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place?

Yes I’d wondered this. Could the k&k transducers be placed nearby and still have the same impact?

If you were going to move anything in that scenario, it would probably be better to be the Anthem mic as it's less sensitive to positioning than the K&K sensors (they really need to be in the right place to ensure a balanced sound). If it's anything like the Lyric (my understanding is it's actually the same mic, just dealt with differently in the preamp of each system) then it can be positioned behind the pins and also over to one side of the bridgeplate next to the X brace. It will sound different there, obviously....

https://images.app.goo.gl/sjfhdEiNmTU4eS36A

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

Lewy said:

Teyeplayer said:

TimmyO said:

Don't the anthem mic and k&k transducers go in the same place?

Yes I’d wondered this. Could the k&k transducers be placed nearby and still have the same impact?

If you were going to move anything in that scenario, it would probably be better to be the Anthem mic as it's less sensitive to positioning than the K&K sensors (they really need to be in the right place to ensure a balanced sound). If it's anything like the Lyric (my understanding is it's actually the same mic, just dealt with differently in the preamp of each system) then it can be positioned behind the pins and also over to one side of the bridgeplate next to the X brace. It will sound different there, obviously....

https://images.app.goo.gl/sjfhdEiNmTU4eS36

Yes - agree with many of the comments above. And yes - my preferred option is to put the Pure Mini directly under the saddle as recommended and put the Anthem mic the other side of the pegs.

Because the back is still off, I have the luxury of being able to position everything pretty accurately.

I've abandoned the idea of a blend between the piezo and Pure Mini - I'll probably just put a 'one or the other' switch in.

The bit most likely for me to have got wrong conceptually, is that I am making an assumption that the Pure Mini transducers will be closer electronically to the Anthem piezo element rather than the Anthem mic. And I may be completely wrong about that.

The Anthem has arrived, by the way. It looks a neat package...

ToneControl · July 2019

I'd recommend using an IR from a guitar body in your FX instead, less issues with feedback

I have a K+K trinity, but you can only raise the mic level up a bit

Lewy · July 2019

This has potential to be really quite complicated in practical use - the K&K won't sound good through the same EQ as the piezo, so flicking the "either or" switch is going to have to be accompanied by tweaking everything. The K&K wants to see 500K-1 Meg input impedance to avoid excess bass frequencies - not so a piezo which will likely not sound good with that impedance so that's another thing to deal with....were you thinking of somehow tapping the K&K into the Anthem preamp? There'll be a big mismatch there I'd have thought?

Andyjr1515 · July 2019

Lewy said:

This has potential to be really quite complicated in practical use - the K&K won't sound good through the same EQ as the piezo, so flicking the "either or" switch is going to have to be accompanied by tweaking everything. The K&K wants to see 500K-1 Meg input impedance to avoid excess bass frequencies - not so a piezo which will likely not sound good with that impedance so that's another thing to deal with....were you thinking of somehow tapping the K&K into the Anthem preamp? There'll be a big mismatch there I'd have thought?

That's useful info. The Pure Mini hasn't arrived yet and I'd missed the bit of the product manual on their website covering the very topic you mention...and in quite a bit of detail

Thanks for flagging. In my ignorance, I had gambled that the electronic properties of that type of transducer might be similar to the piezo - clearly, they are completely different

The simpler option (and probably most likely to give acceptable results) is, of course, to go for simply fitting both systems and having two jacks which would leave the option open running one or other or (for, say, studio work) for running a double cable out into two interface or amp channels, following @ToneControl 's comment above.

It's ages before I have to commit - and I can use either system in other projects if I conclude the whole thing is just a really bad idea.

crunchman · July 2019

The simplest option is to go for a straightforward undersaddle piezo and use some digital trickery. The TC Bodyrez can make an undersaddle sound quite good. If you want to spend a bit more there is all the Fishman Aura stuff.

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