Update: My drummer speeds up during every song. Found an App!

koneguitarist · May 2019

TheBigDipper said:

koneguitarist said:

youtu.be/TowCiqVQMmw

first track Burning love is my last gig, tempo fairly even throughout, showing drummer can keep time.
2nd song Call me the Breeze, starts off slow, but by listening to beginning and jumping forward to end of song tempo changes a lot? whose fault?

youtu.be/EM-7m6XZdcw

Only listened to the start of the keys solo. The singer seems to have a tempo that makes musical sense on a casual first listen, so I'd suggest the rest listen to him and follow it. He’ll be the one the audience is listening to. The drummer does seem to be pushing, but he might be playing at the right tempo and the singer is dragging the band.

Good luck when you play that to the whole band! The question for me is what is the tempo you've agreed on. And do people practice their parts at that tempo?

From memory, JJ recorded it a bit faster than you're playing it, but I like the slower tempo, myself.

Think JJ Cale used a drum machine on his version? one of the early ones.
We never practised tempo's (actually we never practised) just played it to tempo on whoever starts it. Not always the same person.

darthed1981 · May 2019

I genuinely thought the OP had started a thread about replacing his drummer with an app...

JMP220478 · July 2019

couple of questions based on what I've read so far

1. is he consistently playing with tempos on all songs ? - if not what songs tempos or arrangements does he suffer with and why ? and likewise what makes him play well on others ? does he like material he plays well etc

2. is it live or at rehearsal too ? - stage volume monitoring venue adrenaline if live only?

3. have you asked another drummer / mate to step in for a few songs discretely and had improvements? if yes to former and no to latter then perhaps not just drummer ?

4. serious line up or mates band ? attitude is key p=c x a² where p=performance c=capability a=attitude ; if hes not taking it seriously then is that his perception of band or just him ..

5. Have you any sight of material from his former drumming gigs ? did he keep time then ?

6. have you played well to a drum track in his absence - record and play back to him ?

7. is he your mate ; relative of your other half ; brothers best man ; bassists auntie ? how important is great band vibe vs 100% timing - latter can be worked on ?

8. do you have great band vibe or are you looking for reason to move him on ? is there a personality clash that is influencing others playing and exacerbating timing issue ?

Whenever I've had lineups that had issues with "musicianship" - its not always been consistent and some of the above questions in quiet reflection / soul searching could be at root of the "timing" ..

good luck

jpfamps · July 2019

Drum fills are one major source of tempo problems. I think the problem is that drummers only practice fills at one tempo, so when they perform a fill it gravitates to that tempo.

Incidentally I see this a lot with guitar players. They have obviously practiced a solo or lick at a certain tempo and then gravitate to that live. I have been guilty of this in the past.

Even if you practice with a metronome this can still be a problem if the song is being played at a tempo you haven't practiced the fill / lick at.

Practicing at slightly different tempi is very useful, and there is plenty of software out there that can slow down and speed up tracks slightly without changing the pitch if that's how you like to practice rather to a 'nome.

Freebird · July 2019

Slightly off-topic, but does anybody know of any VST drum software that automatically speeds up and slows down as you go along?

jpfamps · July 2019

koneguitarist said:

youtu.be/TowCiqVQMmw

first track Burning love is my last gig, tempo fairly even throughout, showing drummer can keep time.
2nd song Call me the Breeze, starts off slow, but by listening to beginning and jumping forward to end of song tempo changes a lot? whose fault?

youtu.be/EM-7m6XZdcw

Song sped up noticeably when the drummer went to the ride cymbal at around 2.40 on the video. Could be that the keyboard player was rushing too.

Starts of solos are often a problematic area.

Ché · July 2019

As a drummer myself I've been guilty of this, it happens to all of us, mainly at gigs when adrenaline and excitement kick in.

Practicing (as in the drummer practicing by himself) to a click is of the upmost importance. Hearing a recording of yourself playing back was a major one for me as I could hear exactly where and how I was increasing in tempo.

I've always said a good drummer can change your life, they can literally make or break and band and, in Buddy Rich's case, are the band. His advice was if your drummer can't cut it, get one who can. Sad but true.

Listen to "Chameleon" by Herbie Hancock and the Headhunters. Listen to the opening tempo then fast forward to the end of the song where they go back to that groove. Notice a difference?

WiresDreamDisasters · July 2019

Freebird said:

Slightly off-topic, but does anybody know of any VST drum software that automatically speeds up and slows down as you go along?

That's more of a DAW feature tbh. Because VST's are at the whim of the clock coming from the DAW. Ableton Live has a plugin that can track a live drummer. It started out as a Max4Live project called BeeKeeper but the final name is totally escaping me right now.

Freebird · July 2019

Ché said:

As a drummer myself I've been guilty of this, it happens to all of us, mainly at gigs when adrenaline and excitement kick in.
Practicing (as in the drummer practicing by himself) to a click is of the upmost importance. Hearing a recording of yourself playing back was a major one for me as I could hear exactly where and how I was increasing in tempo.

I've always said a good drummer can change your life, they can literally make or break and band and, in Buddy Rich's case, are the band. His advice was if your drummer can't cut it, get one who can. Sad but true.

Listen to "Chameleon" by Herbie Hancock and the Headhunters. Listen to the opening tempo then fast forward to the end of the song where they go back to that groove. Notice a difference?

Every great band has a great drummer.

Freebird · July 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Freebird said:

Slightly off-topic, but does anybody know of any VST drum software that automatically speeds up and slows down as you go along?

That's more of a DAW feature tbh. Because VST's are at the whim of the clock coming from the DAW. Ableton Live has a plugin that can track a live drummer. It started out as a Max4Live project called BeeKeeper but the final name is totally escaping me right now.

Is this it?

https://maxforlive.com/library/device/4917/ru-bees

Can't VST drum apps offset the main DAW clock like the delay and glitch plugins do? I envisage a graph where you could enter the values or draw in the tempo variations, a bit like what you can do with velocity.

Grunfeld · July 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:

That video shows the dangers of too strict an editing job. Not too strict a time keeping....

100%.

And there are comments that the video's creator, Rick Beato, made a sloppy job of determining the tempo of Bonham's playing -- and that's exactly what I think has happened here too. Beato has said the tempo is 170 bpm let's quantise to that. Well, it wasn't 170 bpm so no wonder the adjusted version sounded off. You can see this happening as Bonham's original appears to fall behind a 170 click. No it doesn't! The click should have been a bit slower.

WiresDreamDisasters · July 2019

Freebird said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Freebird said:

Slightly off-topic, but does anybody know of any VST drum software that automatically speeds up and slows down as you go along?

That's more of a DAW feature tbh. Because VST's are at the whim of the clock coming from the DAW. Ableton Live has a plugin that can track a live drummer. It started out as a Max4Live project called BeeKeeper but the final name is totally escaping me right now.

Is this it?

https://maxforlive.com/library/device/4917/ru-bees

Can't VST drum apps offset the main DAW clock like the delay and glitch plugins do? I envisage a graph where you could enter the values or draw in the tempo variations, a bit like what you can do with velocity.

Nah that's not it. I'll have to do some hunting.

WiresDreamDisasters · July 2019

Grunfeld said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

That video shows the dangers of too strict an editing job. Not too strict a time keeping....

100%.
And there are comments that the video's creator, Rick Beato, made a sloppy job of determining the tempo of Bonham's playing -- and that's exactly what I think has happened here too. Beato has said the tempo is 170 bpm let's quantise to that. Well, it wasn't 170 bpm so no wonder the adjusted version sounded off. You can see this happening as Bonham's original appears to fall behind a 170 click. No it doesn't! The click should have been a bit slower.

He did just go off one or two bars as I recall. You'd want to tap the tempo over the whole song to arrive at an average figure, and then edit to that.

More to the point, many songs that get edited to the grid so to speak, still have tempo changes in them. So tempo isn't really enough information anyway I wouldn't say.

DAW's like Reason and Ableton allow you to setup groove maps, so you can edit the hell out of your content and then conform it to a groove. This groove doesn't have to be metronomic. It could be that you take 16 bars of Bonham playing and make all of your midi conform to that timing.

The possibilities are endless. But good time keeping is essential in my view.

TeleMaster · September 2019

Clicks for live bands without reason, no. For recordings I would say due to the nature of recording these days, mostly yes.

A drummer that speeds up continuously to the point of it being unbearable is like a guitarist that constantly plays the wrong notes. I’d probably be looking for another drummer.

fastonebaz · November 2019

I found one. It is an iphone app called LiveBPM and works fantastically well. Shows thr current bpm and a graph trace. This is thr tool I was looking for.

JMP220478 · November 2019

fastonebaz said:

I found one. It is an iphone app called LiveBPM and works fantastically well. Shows thr current bpm and a graph trace. This is thr tool I was looking for.

So how are you going to introduce this to band ( drummer really ) ? run on ipad screen live ?

stickyfiddle · November 2019

jpfamps said:

koneguitarist said:

youtu.be/TowCiqVQMmw

first track Burning love is my last gig, tempo fairly even throughout, showing drummer can keep time.
2nd song Call me the Breeze, starts off slow, but by listening to beginning and jumping forward to end of song tempo changes a lot? whose fault?

youtu.be/EM-7m6XZdcw

Song sped up noticeably when the drummer went to the ride cymbal at around 2.40 on the video. Could be that the keyboard player was rushing too.

Starts of solos are often a problematic area.

I’d say the drummer was pushing the tempo in both of those, just playing a fraction ahead of the beat all the time, which then encourages others to speed up as well. Add adrenaline/nerves to that and you have the classic “everything speeds up” thing.

The whole feel of that material is in the almost lazy timing, imo, so you want a drummer who sits back into it rather than rushing at any point. But that sort of feel is not something every drummer (Or guitarist, keys player, etc etc) can do well

Handsome_Chris · November 2021

@fastonebaz , how are you getting on with this? Has the app helped to sort out timing issues, and how?

fastonebaz · November 2021

Handsome_Chris said:

@fastonebaz , how are you getting on with this? Has the app helped to sort out timing issues, and how?

@Handsome_Chris well, we ended up getting a different drummer in the end. And a different band. And totally different songs. So in the end it worked out fine

Handsome_Chris · November 2021

fastonebaz said:

Handsome_Chris said:

@fastonebaz , how are you getting on with this? Has the app helped to sort out timing issues, and how?

@Handsome_Chris well, we ended up getting a different drummer in the end. And a different band. And totally different songs. So in the end it worked out fine

@fastonebaz, you are the cure for the blues.

Roland · November 2021

We had a problem with a previous drummer slowing down. Amongst our stage lights we have two which illuminate his kit at a gig. I set them to pulse or flash at whatever bpm I tapped in for the song. Nowadays the lighting controller takes a pulse from the keyboard player.

stratman3142 · November 2021

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

Yes, I'll go with that and go with the tempo set by the drummer.

I think I've been lucky to mostly work with drummers with good time. One drummer friend, who has great time, used to make a sign of revving a motorbike if he thought I was pushing the beat forwards. At least I was out of reach because the bass player got poked with his drumstick

fretmeister · November 2021

Creed_Clicks · November 2021

Timing is one of the most important things I think. I am not sure if there is any cure for speeding up or slowing down.

octatonic · November 2021

Creed_Clicks said:

Timing is one of the most important things I think. I am not sure if there is any cure for speeding up or slowing down.

Yes there is.

It just comes down to experience and intention.

Some people naturally speed up or slow down when playing.
The way you get around it is by practicing with a metronome.

The way to fix any problem with musical practice is

a) identify the problem
b) accept that it needs to be fixed
c) do the work necessary to fix it

That is it.
The problem is a lot of musicians either think that a) isn't happening or b) it is just part of 'their style'.
If you are dealing with either of those two situations then there isn't much you can do.
Then the issue with c) is some people are just lazy and don't want to do the work, or want it to magically go away.
Doesn't work like that.

Some people have natural tendencies- I seem to swing everything, just a bit.
I play in a functions band where that isn't always appropriate so I had to do the work to play straight.
I did the work, it isn't a problem now.

Hootsmon · November 2021

I used to play with a "drummer" who would agitate the shit outta me

Every guitar solo would end up in double time and he would speed up EVERYTHING

At weddings and Wonderful Tonight he would start with racing 16ths on the hi hat and then speed up...he did my nerves in

He thought it his sworn duty to blow everyone off the stage with power and speed

He could go round the drums ala Billy Cobham speed but could not hold a basic groove together if his life depended on it

AB you were a fuckin' nightmare son and i am glad to get this off my chest....you really messed me up and i don't know why I stuck it so long....oh,yes I do...it was the money

Ah, that's better

Stratavarious · December 2021

Joinmyband.com or bandmix?

A drummer that can keep time is the best asset,

TeleMaster · December 2021

Even the best drummers in the world speed up and slow down. There’s a YouTube video showing Charlie Watts speeding up during choruses and slowing down. As long as it’s not drastic and super obvious it really is quite normal and actually adds excitement to a song in relevant places.

But if it’s like this drummer we auditioned who would speed every song up by 20bpm and then another 20 in the chorus, well we thought we were on X2 speed for everything and that was a no go.

DrumBob · January 2022

It's very simple. Insist he start practicing timekeeping with a click track or metronomic device of some kind. I did this for an extended period of time and it worked. Once I started locking in with the click, it became easy to keep tempos solid. Now, they hardly ever wander, unless I'm overly tired.

There are apps for timekeeping. I bought a Roland TR-505 drum machine and learned to program it. I put in a click consisting of a cowbell and bass drum and played it through my stereo system. Practicing with it cured whatever time issues I had. I also stopped smoking weed on gigs. That helped too.

My time improved so much that a recording engineer once used a drum track of mine as a click for another drummer in his studio.

robinbowes · January 2022

DrumBob said:

I also stopped smoking weed on gigs. That helped too.

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Update: My drummer speeds up during every song. Found an App!

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