Update: My drummer speeds up during every song. Found an App!

stephen.wood125 · May 2019

With the light based metronome, maybe best to ensure no one has any susceptibility to photo sensitive epilepsy, otherwise that may not be an extra energetic drum solo he's gone into.

steven70 · May 2019

Edit, edit, Oh b_llocks removed that cos I dont know what I'm going on about and didn't read the orig post properly....ignore. sorry folks Keep my trap shut on this one now...coat gotten

TheBigDipper · May 2019

Playing to a strict tempo is fine if the music being played rewards that discipline or the composition requires that approach. Having several strict tempos to keep to as part of the composition is equally fine if that's what the composition requires (the 105 to 160 to 150bpm example quoted above).

But it isn't always the drummers job to be the metronome that everyone else plays to. I'm playing songs where the guitar part is the timekeeper and the drummer plays around me - pushing or dragging for musical effect. I also like music where the time ebbs and flows a little according to the mood of the music and the whole band goes with it. They have to listen to each other, mind...

There's more than one way of playing as a band and sounding good.

There's definitely a million ways of playing as a band and sounding dreadful. But one persons dreadful is another persons delight.

steven70 · May 2019

TheBigDipper said:

Playing to a strict tempo is fine if the music being played rewards that discipline or the composition requires that approach. Having several strict tempos to keep to as part of the composition is equally fine if that's what the composition requires (the 105 to 160 to 150bpm example quoted above).

But it isn't always the drummers job to be the metronome that everyone else plays to. I'm playing songs where the guitar part is the timekeeper and the drummer plays around me - pushing or dragging for musical effect. I also like music where the time ebbs and flows a little according to the mood of the music and the whole band goes with it. They have to listen to each other, mind...

There's more than one way of playing as a band and sounding good.

There's definitely a million ways of playing as a band and sounding dreadful. But one persons dreadful is another persons delight.

except to second that

koneguitarist · May 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:

ICBM said:

fastonebaz said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

Defo. Can't be any other way. The drummers prime job is to set and maintain the tempo.

Not sure I agree with that. A really good drummer doesn't just press go and set off like a clockwork toy, they listen to the rest of the band and work together to adjust the tempo if necessary.

Well, I disagree with your disagreement

In one of our new songs our drummer goes from 105bpm to 160bpm for only 4 quarter notes and then back to 150bpm for the rest of the song.

I mapped this out based on about 10 different performances we did in the practice room. He was very consistent.

Consistency is the key. Using a click doesn't imply you never stray from the pulse, or change it altogether. It just implies that you're working on being consistent with your clocking.

It shouldn't be necessary to monitor the tempo on the fly in case of drastic changes. The drummer should know what the hell he is doing so that the rest of the band can follow.

A band shouldn't really be going up on stage to play Mustang Sally or whatever, and constantly starting or ending with different speeds. That just isn't professional. It's sloppy. This is completely different to having known and expected shifts in the time.

A band also shouldn't be held to ransom by it's worst performing member either.

I find musicians who are anti-clicks really aggravating. They love to pretend that if they did use a click, it would ruin their vibe, their jive, their groove, etc... it's bullshit. Complete bullshit. It's just an excuse to avoid work and remain as a sloppy musician.

Fundamentally, I have high expectations for this kind of thing. Musicians get better when they practice to a click.

A click is for bands (note Bands) that cant keep time, or if they are using it in conjunction with lighting effects and part of a stage show. Not against clicks, I have always looked to solve problem than mask it.

fastonebaz · May 2019

Well this has been a stimulating debate but no one has recommended the kind of app I was thinking of. Maybe it's too tricky to accurately gauge just via a phone mic.

TheBigDipper · May 2019

fastonebaz said:

Well this has been a stimulating debate but no one has recommended the kind of app I was thinking of. Maybe it's too tricky to accurately gauge just via a phone mic.

I don't know of an App that does what you're looking for. I use AnyTune for analysis and practice. That analyses the audio file and tells you what the average bpm of the track is, but that averages out any faster or slower bits and is calculated from the file, not in real time as you play the file back.

It would be difficult to build, I think. I don't know if you've ever compared your vehicle speedo against the sat nav speed when driving/riding. The speedo gives you the actual speed as it changes up and down (but over-reads). The sat nav gives you a more accurate speed over time, because it averages it out as it samples the changing satellite positions. When you accelerate, it's slow to catch up and the same when slowing down. If you cruise at a constant speed, it seems quite accurate. I think you need the same thing and it will have the same problems. What would the software use to assess the bpm? The kick drum? Snare?

Maybe you need another musician to sit in on your sessions and tap a metronome app in time with the band and tell you what they've found. Someone who doesn't need to stay friendly with anyone afterwards!

stickyfiddle · May 2019

I think it's more complicated than just "clicks are good" or "clicks are bad". They're absolutely necessary for the sort of shows that U2 or Coldplay or Muse do - it would be fucked if they weren't in time with the light show. Equally there's no click behind Back in Black, or Nevermind, or Revolver, or Exile on Main Street etc etc, and the timing on all of those is really fluid and they're all fantastic records that would almost certainly be worse if put on rigid tempo.

I'm quite sure that practising with a click is a good thing for drummers - I'm starting to do this myself - but for recording and live it's not a case of "click tracks absolutely make music better". Clearly they'll make the timing more accurate to a predefined bpm, but they also remove an element of flow and connection between players. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not.

lukedlb · May 2019

This quantized john bonham video neatly shows the dangers of too strict a time keeping. Sort of rock vs disco analogy:
https://youtu.be/hT4fFolyZYU

poopot · May 2019

There’s one song we do live where we have a few samples going, all triggered by the drummer, all from the start of the track through to the end.

he has a little flashing light on his sampler that pulses the tempo...

it sucks all all of the soul and feel out of the track... all of it... we may as well be miming... we can’t stray off of that click... it’s stiff and turgid!...

ICBM · May 2019

This is exactly like the argument between old-school 'guitar volume control only' players and modern 'tap dancing pedalboard' players - each thinks the other is lazy and shows a lack of musicianship or willingness to learn how to do something properly.

Which is not true. Each requires a different set of learning and skills, but neither is inherently skilful or lazy, or better or worse musicianship - they're just different approaches with different opportunities and different limitations.

LastMantra · May 2019

stickyfiddle said:

I think it's more complicated than just "clicks are good" or "clicks are bad". They're absolutely necessary for the sort of shows that U2 or Coldplay or Muse do - it would be fucked if they weren't in time with the light show. Equally there's no click behind Back in Black, or Nevermind, or Revolver, or Exile on Main Street etc etc, and the timing on all of those is really fluid and they're all fantastic records that would almost certainly be worse if put on rigid tempo.

I'm quite sure that practising with a click is a good thing for drummers - I'm starting to do this myself - but for recording and live it's not a case of "click tracks absolutely make music better". Clearly they'll make the timing more accurate to a predefined bpm, but they also remove an element of flow and connection between players. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not.

There was a documentary about the making of Nevermind where Dave Grohl said he was asked to play to a click for one of the songs (can't remember which one). Says he was pretty pissd off but did it anyway and was happy after.

stickyfiddle · May 2019

LastMantra said:

stickyfiddle said:

I think it's more complicated than just "clicks are good" or "clicks are bad". They're absolutely necessary for the sort of shows that U2 or Coldplay or Muse do - it would be fucked if they weren't in time with the light show. Equally there's no click behind Back in Black, or Nevermind, or Revolver, or Exile on Main Street etc etc, and the timing on all of those is really fluid and they're all fantastic records that would almost certainly be worse if put on rigid tempo.

I'm quite sure that practising with a click is a good thing for drummers - I'm starting to do this myself - but for recording and live it's not a case of "click tracks absolutely make music better". Clearly they'll make the timing more accurate to a predefined bpm, but they also remove an element of flow and connection between players. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes not.

There was a documentary about the making of Nevermind where Dave Grohl said he was asked to play to a click for one of the songs (can't remember which one). Says he was pretty pissd off but did it anyway and was happy after.

The intro to Lithium, apparently - http://www.burntout.com/nirvana/articles/article5.html

WiresDreamDisasters · May 2019

lukedlb said:

This quantized john bonham video neatly shows the dangers of too strict a time keeping. Sort of rock vs disco analogy:
https://youtu.be/hT4fFolyZYU

That video shows the dangers of too strict an editing job. Not too strict a time keeping. I've got tracks played to a click, and if I mute the click the drummer has humanity to his playing in spades. If I go through and edit every single hit on the kick, snare, and toms, then yes... it's going to be robbed of the natural quality of his playing.

Two different things are being discussed here. I'm of the opinion that a musicians inner-clock should be trained very highly, not just left to be pseudo-random.

Creed_Clicks · May 2019

Timing. You either have it or you don't.

koneguitarist · May 2019

Believe me when I say I have played with some bad drummers, seriously try playing crazy little thing called love, starting off with a swing but straight after 30 seconds or so!
I used a drum Machine in a 4 pc band for about 5 years and loved it for its simplicity, lack of volume on stage and playing so many styles it was brilliant, but it depends on the music that I am playing, some of my vids on YT start off slower than they finish, is it a bad thing? Technically yes. did it feel good on the night and did audience enjoy it yes.
The point I am making is, speeding up a bit or slowing down a bit is not a huge sin in my book if whole performance is good. What I will not accept is drastic changes of tempo, like after a fill for instance, that is often down to poor technique by drummer. The speed/Tempo is not always the drummers fault, but can add to a performance from an audience point of view.
Nothing wrong in my book by using a click track as long as its for right reasons.

koneguitarist · May 2019

youtu.be/TowCiqVQMmw

first track Burning love is my last gig, tempo fairly even throughout, showing drummer can keep time.
2nd song Call me the Breeze, starts off slow, but by listening to beginning and jumping forward to end of song tempo changes a lot? whose fault?

youtu.be/EM-7m6XZdcw

TheBigDipper · May 2019

koneguitarist said:

youtu.be/TowCiqVQMmw

first track Burning love is my last gig, tempo fairly even throughout, showing drummer can keep time.
2nd song Call me the Breeze, starts off slow, but by listening to beginning and jumping forward to end of song tempo changes a lot? whose fault?

youtu.be/EM-7m6XZdcw

Only listened to the start of the keys solo. The singer seems to have a tempo that makes musical sense on a casual first listen, so I'd suggest the rest listen to him and follow it. He’ll be the one the audience is listening to. The drummer does seem to be pushing, but he might be playing at the right tempo and the singer is dragging the band.

Good luck when you play that to the whole band! The question for me is what is the tempo you've agreed on. And do people practice their parts at that tempo?

From memory, JJ recorded it a bit faster than you're playing it, but I like the slower tempo, myself.

Jalapeno · May 2019

Call Me The Breeze is great stuff !!!!

However, JJ Cale's playing and his band's style is best described as loose - not a good topic for this thread really. Probably only thing looser would be John Lee Hooker and 13 & 1/4 bar blues approach

Funkfingers · May 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:
Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

This would not work for The Who.

Townshend ruled the timing. Entwistle noodled away in the low register. Moon did the flash, twiddly nonsense on top.

It is possible for a drummer to define the timing without actually playing it in the strict sense.

Vinnie Colaiuta has a floaty feel which sometimes leaves you wondering whether the music has a compound time signature or is swinging broadly in 4/4. Neil Peart also does this - especially after his involvement with the Buddy Rich Orchestra tribute project. There are some Rush compositions for which Alex and Geddy are riffing in a compound, shifting time signature. Neil did the counting and realised that he could sail through all that in 4/4 and still land on the one when the composition returned to 4/4.

Jalapeno · May 2019

Funkfingers said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:
Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

This would not work for The Who.

Nor Fleetwood Mac

WiresDreamDisasters · May 2019

Funkfingers said:

There are some Rush compositions for which Alex and Geddy are riffing in a compound, shifting time signature. Neil did the counting and realised that he could sail through all that in 4/4 and still land on the one when the composition returned to 4/4.

That's a simple poly-rhythmic case. The underlying pulse is still pretty much the same on all instruments, regardless of time signatures.

There is a thing called a "predominant local pulse" which is essentially a measure of the tatum of a piece of audio - the driving pulse you could think of it as, which is usually a 4th, 8th, 16th, or 32nd. This occurs in all rhythmic music and is what our ears tune into in order to clap along. It's a concept that comes from Music Information Retrieval, and is modelled on how the human brain perceives rhythm.

When you get musicians playing tightly together, they're all playing to the same PLP values, within a margin of error. When musicians are out of time with one another, it's because they're not doing that.

I'm not saying that the band has to rigidly follow the drummer. I'm saying that the drummer determines the PLP curve for a song, because that's where you most often hear the tatum. Just because Bonham is a bit loose doesn't mean he's not doing the same thing, and just because a guitarist plays some intro chords also doesn't mean that the drummer doesn't do the same thing once he comes in.

So when I say "Click is the only answer" to the problem of a drummer not being able to maintain a songs PLP curve, I literally mean it. Practicing to a click by yourself literally trains your brain to be better at tapping into these ideal PLP curves.

That's all a long winded way of say that practice makes perfect.

@fastonebaz - your drummer simply needs to practice more, to a click and without the band. Let him count the song in at the start, even if your guitarist starts the song, and your band will sound tighter.

Jalapeno said:

Funkfingers said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:
Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

This would not work for The Who.

Nor Fleetwood Mac

If you listen to 'The Chain' by Fleetwood Mac, you'll hear at the end when the bass does that F1 theme tune thing (lol) the drummer is still keeping time on the hihat... in order to keep the bassist in time.

I don't think anything I'm saying is particularly revolutionary. Drummers keep time. It's their job. A guitarist, bassist, vocalist, keyboard player, etc... can choose to push against it, but the drums are the clock, the timing reference, and the pulse of the song.

Even a solo acoustic performer... the snappy plectrum artifacts of strummed chords act as a percussive element, and define the timing.

WiresDreamDisasters · May 2019

Also, bad drummers ruin great bands.

PolarityMan · May 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:

koneguitarist said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Click is the only answer.

Disagree, drummers are not always the problem, I can make a drummer slow down or speed up if I want to.
Check first who he is following and can he hear them, 2nd, watch a video of yourself playing and listen where bassist plays his notes, on before or just after the beat. Who is dominant guy in band?

When we changed from one bassist to the next, despite bassist being far better, the rhythm was a struggle between drummer and bassist. It really upset the balance. Another drummer always slowed down, so we put a monitor with rhythm guitar up loud in the mix, never slowed down again.

Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

I think this is a myth perpetuated by the fact that there are a lot of drummers with awful timing and since they ahve never either practices with a click or acknowledged that they should be collaboratively arriving at the tempo they are actual unable to keep time to something else.

I think when its a basic groove the drummer ought to be setting the tempo but there are tons of scenarios where the drummer needs to listen to someone else.There should always be a dominant part that is dictating the tempo and that is often but not always the drums.

The reason a click is so good is because it doesn't allow any interpretation about who was right / wrong....except in our band where the drummer insists that the click speeds up and slows down *sigh*

stickyfiddle · May 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Jalapeno said:

Funkfingers said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:
Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

This would not work for The Who.

Nor Fleetwood Mac

If you listen to 'The Chain' by Fleetwood Mac, you'll hear at the end when the bass does that F1 theme tune thing (lol) the drummer is still keeping time on the hihat... in order to keep the bassist in time.

I don't think anything I'm saying is particularly revolutionary. Drummers keep time. It's their job. A guitarist, bassist, vocalist, keyboard player, etc... can choose to push against it, but the drums are the clock, the timing reference, and the pulse of the song.

Maybe he's just on the hihat because it sounds better? Who knows. I'm not

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Also, bad drummers ruin great bands.

I totally agree. That said, I don't think wavering tempo necessarily means bad drumming, if it's intentional and fits the energy of the song.

I've seen a lot of drumming videos that are technically spectacular with great timing yet totally horrible bland drumming.

PolarityMan · May 2019

koneguitarist said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

ICBM said:

fastonebaz said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

Defo. Can't be any other way. The drummers prime job is to set and maintain the tempo.

Not sure I agree with that. A really good drummer doesn't just press go and set off like a clockwork toy, they listen to the rest of the band and work together to adjust the tempo if necessary.

Well, I disagree with your disagreement

In one of our new songs our drummer goes from 105bpm to 160bpm for only 4 quarter notes and then back to 150bpm for the rest of the song.

I mapped this out based on about 10 different performances we did in the practice room. He was very consistent.

Consistency is the key. Using a click doesn't imply you never stray from the pulse, or change it altogether. It just implies that you're working on being consistent with your clocking.

It shouldn't be necessary to monitor the tempo on the fly in case of drastic changes. The drummer should know what the hell he is doing so that the rest of the band can follow.

A band shouldn't really be going up on stage to play Mustang Sally or whatever, and constantly starting or ending with different speeds. That just isn't professional. It's sloppy. This is completely different to having known and expected shifts in the time.

A band also shouldn't be held to ransom by it's worst performing member either.

I find musicians who are anti-clicks really aggravating. They love to pretend that if they did use a click, it would ruin their vibe, their jive, their groove, etc... it's bullshit. Complete bullshit. It's just an excuse to avoid work and remain as a sloppy musician.

Fundamentally, I have high expectations for this kind of thing. Musicians get better when they practice to a click.

A click is for bands (note Bands) that cant keep time, or if they are using it in conjunction with lighting effects and part of a stage show. Not against clicks, I have always looked to solve problem than mask it.

You dont get to the point where you can keep time without a click unless you practice to one. So I think the argument is that its really good to rpactice and record to one even if you dont play to one live.

WiresDreamDisasters · May 2019

Like I said, there is a margin of error and that is for each beat. Nail it dead on... Static sounding drums... Unrealistic for most drummers to attain anyway. Be very far out... Poor performance.

PolarityMan · May 2019

lukedlb said:

This quantized john bonham video neatly shows the dangers of too strict a time keeping. Sort of rock vs disco analogy:
https://youtu.be/hT4fFolyZYU

I think the problem is that he straightened a swung part, setting up a swing grid first might have got better results.

PolarityMan · May 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Funkfingers said:

There are some Rush compositions for which Alex and Geddy are riffing in a compound, shifting time signature. Neil did the counting and realised that he could sail through all that in 4/4 and still land on the one when the composition returned to 4/4.

That's a simple poly-rhythmic case. The underlying pulse is still pretty much the same on all instruments, regardless of time signatures.

There is a thing called a "predominant local pulse" which is essentially a measure of the tatum of a piece of audio - the driving pulse you could think of it as, which is usually a 4th, 8th, 16th, or 32nd. This occurs in all rhythmic music and is what our ears tune into in order to clap along. It's a concept that comes from Music Information Retrieval, and is modelled on how the human brain perceives rhythm.

When you get musicians playing tightly together, they're all playing to the same PLP values, within a margin of error. When musicians are out of time with one another, it's because they're not doing that.

I'm not saying that the band has to rigidly follow the drummer. I'm saying that the drummer determines the PLP curve for a song, because that's where you most often hear the tatum. Just because Bonham is a bit loose doesn't mean he's not doing the same thing, and just because a guitarist plays some intro chords also doesn't mean that the drummer doesn't do the same thing once he comes in.

So when I say "Click is the only answer" to the problem of a drummer not being able to maintain a songs PLP curve, I literally mean it. Practicing to a click by yourself literally trains your brain to be better at tapping into these ideal PLP curves.

That's all a long winded way of say that practice makes perfect.

@fastonebaz - your drummer simply needs to practice more, to a click and without the band. Let him count the song in at the start, even if your guitarist starts the song, and your band will sound tighter.

Jalapeno said:

Funkfingers said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:
Everyone in the band should be following the drummer. The drummer should be the master clock. IMHO.

This would not work for The Who.

Nor Fleetwood Mac

If you listen to 'The Chain' by Fleetwood Mac, you'll hear at the end when the bass does that F1 theme tune thing (lol) the drummer is still keeping time on the hihat... in order to keep the bassist in time.

I don't think anything I'm saying is particularly revolutionary. Drummers keep time. It's their job. A guitarist, bassist, vocalist, keyboard player, etc... can choose to push against it, but the drums are the clock, the timing reference, and the pulse of the song.

Even a solo acoustic performer... the snappy plectrum artifacts of strummed chords act as a percussive element, and define the timing.

I think this is really interesting..wish I had got to it before my first reply.

It pretty much explains the counter examples I can think of, like when a guitar is playing 1/6ths over a half time feel beat, in that case the tempo should be dictated by the guitarist.

Again when the drums are playing an embellishment, or solo style piece then one or more elements in the rest of the band will be playing the dominant repeated rhythmic elements and hence setting tempo.

TheBigDipper · May 2019

WiresDreamDisasters said:

Also, bad drummers ruin great bands.

Absolutely. Bad anything can ruin a band, as I'm sure you'd agree. Drummers are in short supply. That means the bar for accepting a drummer into a band can often be lower - just because you're grateful to have a drummer at all.

(And then, once they get good, they want to play Jazz.... )

I also totally agree that everyone should practice using a metronome to develop the skill of playing in tempo and not fluctuating. I'm just not so keen on the idea that a musical performance should always be to a click or that the drummer always provides the tempo for the band to follow.

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Update: My drummer speeds up during every song. Found an App!

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