Why is this chord sequence pleasing to me ?

Emp_Fab · January 2019

I haven’t worked out the sequence because I’m in bed right now! But.... knowing very little theory, I’d like to know what the sequence is in terms of I, IV, etc, and whether this is why I like it.

It’s rather neo-classical but there’s something about the chord sequence that lifts my spirits and I’m really curious why that is and if there’s an explanation in music theory.

https://soundcloud.com/synchro505/space-overture-mix-01

roberty · January 2019

It's a nice long sequence like hotel california. Takes several bars to unwind and folds out over a repeating descending pattern

viz · January 2019

I love this question, because it allows us to use the language of theory to explain why and how music works, which is exactly what theory is for and why it’s so important. So thank you for asking! What is the piece by the way?

The reason you love this progression so much, and why it’s so pleasing to the ear, is because it’s based on the most perfect of musical phrases - the ‘perfect cadence’ or V-I resolution. If you want more info about why the V-I is so perfect, we can discuss that later.

Anyway there are 7 such perfect cadences in this progression, which is awesome. Due to the fact that each time you go from the V chord to the I chord you are going down a 5th (or up a 4th), what you are doing is ‘back-cycling’ round the circle of 5ths. It’s an absolutely classic progression and it sticks hauntingly in your mind. And it’s made even more beautiful through the use of inversions, so the chords glide into each other instead of hopping about in leaps of 4ths. We can talk about that too if you wish.

How it plays out is this:

The whole thing is in F# minor, and the first thing that happens is we have a ‘parallel modulation’, just switching from F#m to F#7, setting us up for the first V-I.

Then we resolve up to B. Actually B minor, so it’s a V-i cadence, which is a legitimate perfect cadence.

Then it’s E7 - A, so the Bm - E was a v-I cadence (actually that’s not strictly speaking a perfect cadence because the v is minor, but it still counts as part of the back-cycle because it’s going up a 4th, so I’m counting it as our 2nd perfect cadence). And the E7 - A is our 3rd.

Then it’s D - G, so the move from A to D was our 4th V-I cadence, and the D - G is our 5th.

Then it’s G - C, which is our 6th V-I cadence.

Now, this could go on and on until all 12 keys are done and the circle is complete, but that would be tedious and we’d start to lose track of where home is, so the composer needs to position him/herself to start at F# again, and the way to do that is to somehow get to C#, for a final V-I to F#, ready for the next round; and the way that is done is this:

Firstly the chords go up in tones - from C to D then from D to E. Then from E down a minor 3rd to C#. That’s the final chord in the progression.

So all that’s left to do is resolve from the C# to the F#m, our 7th V-i cadence and we’ve started the whole thing off again.

So to go all the way from F# to C takes us from the bottom of the circle (6pm), anticlockwise right round to the top (noon), which is ace. Actually, if you include the C#, it’s actually from 7pm to noon.

http://i.imgur.com/YMaEZrb.jpg

Other songs that make use of back-cycling:

- Still got the Blues
- Emporte Moi
- Europa
- Nordrach
- Y Volvere
- the MASH theme tune
- All the Things You Are
- the Pink Panther castle/moat scene
- Hello (Lionel Ritchie)
- Can I sit next to you girl (ACDC)
- Brother can you spare a dime
- Blue Bossa
- Parisienne Walkways
- I Will Survive
- Burn (the keyboard solo)
- Autumn Leaves
- Rising Force
- Young Persons’ Guide to the Orchestra
- Fly me to the Moon

toescantalk · January 2019

Any good readable books on music theory as this is fascinating stuff?

viz · January 2019

toescantalk said:

Any good readable books on music theory as this is fascinating stuff?

Well, I’m writing one; that ‘pianorama’ pic of the C of 5 is from it

For this type of analysis you want a book on music harmony really, because you want a mixture of the qualitative and the quantitative. Theory books that focus just on the maths can be rather dry without the accompanying discussion about the actual music.

JAYJO · January 2019

because your in bed with your hands on your sausage? I give in tell me..?

fendergibson · January 2019

viz said:

I love this question, because it allows us to use the language of theory to explain why and how music works, which is exactly what theory is for and why it’s so important. So thank you for asking! What is the piece by the way?

The reason you love this progression so much, and why it’s so pleasing to the ear, is because it’s based on the most perfect of musical phrases - the ‘perfect cadence’ or V-I resolution. If you want more info about why the V-I is so perfect, we can discuss that later.

Anyway there are 7 such perfect cadences in this progression, which is awesome. Due to the fact that each time you go from the V chord to the I chord you are going down a 5th (or up a 4th), what you are doing is ‘back-cycling’ round the circle of 5ths. It’s an absolutely classic progression and it sticks hauntingly in your mind. And it’s made even more beautiful through the use of inversions, so the chords glide into each other instead of hopping about in leaps of 4ths. We can talk about that too if you wish.

How it plays out is this:

The whole thing is in F# minor, and the first thing that happens is we have a ‘parallel modulation’, just switching from F#m to F#7, setting us up for the first V-I.

Then we resolve up to B. Actually B minor, so it’s a V-i cadence, which is a legitimate perfect cadence.

Then it’s E7 - A, so the Bm - E was a v-I cadence (actually that’s not strictly speaking a perfect cadence because the v is minor, but it still counts as part of the back-cycle because it’s going up a 4th, so I’m counting it as our 2nd perfect cadence). And the E7 - A is our 3rd.

Then it’s D - G, so the move from A to D was our 4th V-I cadence, and the D - G is our 5th.

Then it’s G - C, which is our 6th V-I cadence.

Now, this could go on and on until all 12 keys are done and the circle is complete, but that would be tedious and we’d start to lose track of where home is, so the composer needs to position him/herself to start at F# again, and the way to do that is to somehow get to C#, for a final V-I to F#, ready for the next round; and the way that is done is this:

Firstly the chords go up in tones - from C to D then from D to E. Then from E down a minor 3rd to C#. That’s the final chord in the progression.

So all that’s left to do is resolve from the C# to the F#m, our 7th V-i cadence and we’ve started the whole thing off again.

So to go all the way from F# to C takes us from the bottom of the circle (6pm), anticlockwise right round to the top (noon), which is ace. Actually, if you include the C#, it’s actually from 7pm to noon.

http://i.imgur.com/YMaEZrb.jpg

Other songs that make use of back-cycling:

- Still got the Blues
- Emporte Moi
- Europa
- Nordrach
- Y Volvere
- the MASH theme tune
- All the Things You Are
- the Pink Panther castle/moat scene
- Hello (Lionel Ritchie)
- Can I sit next to you girl (ACDC)
- Brother can you spare a dime
- Blue Bossa
- Parisienne Walkways
- I Will Survive
- Burn (the keyboard solo)
- Autumn Leaves

Wiz for Viz ! Thanks for posting - very informative and I’ve learned/understood something there

toescantalk · January 2019

viz said:

toescantalk said:

Any good readable books on music theory as this is fascinating stuff?

Well, I’m writing one; that ‘pianorama’ pic of the C of 5 is from it

Let me know if you want me to proof read it!

Emp_Fab · January 2019

viz said:

I love this question, because it allows us to use the language of theory to explain why and how music works, which is exactly what theory is for and why it’s so important. So thank you for asking! What is the piece by the way?

The reason you love this progression so much, and why it’s so pleasing to the ear, is because it’s based on the most perfect of musical phrases - the ‘perfect cadence’ or V-I resolution. If you want more info about why the V-I is so perfect, we can discuss that later.

Anyway there are 7 such perfect cadences in this progression, which is awesome. Due to the fact that each time you go from the V chord to the I chord you are going down a 5th (or up a 4th), what you are doing is ‘back-cycling’ round the circle of 5ths. It’s an absolutely classic progression and it sticks hauntingly in your mind. And it’s made even more beautiful through the use of inversions, so the chords glide into each other instead of hopping about in leaps of 4ths. We can talk about that too if you wish.

How it plays out is this:

The whole thing is in F# minor, and the first thing that happens is we have a ‘parallel modulation’, just switching from F#m to F#7, setting us up for the first V-I.

Then we resolve up to B. Actually B minor, so it’s a V-i cadence, which is a legitimate perfect cadence.

Then it’s E7 - A, so the Bm - E was a v-I cadence (actually that’s not strictly speaking a perfect cadence because the v is minor, but it still counts as part of the back-cycle because it’s going up a 4th, so I’m counting it as our 2nd perfect cadence). And the E7 - A is our 3rd.

Then it’s D - G, so the move from A to D was our 4th V-I cadence, and the D - G is our 5th.

Then it’s G - C, which is our 6th V-I cadence.

Now, this could go on and on until all 12 keys are done and the circle is complete, but that would be tedious and we’d start to lose track of where home is, so the composer needs to position him/herself to start at F# again, and the way to do that is to somehow get to C#, for a final V-I to F#, ready for the next round; and the way that is done is this:

Firstly the chords go up in tones - from C to D then from D to E. Then from E down a minor 3rd to C#. That’s the final chord in the progression.

So all that’s left to do is resolve from the C# to the F#m, our 7th V-i cadence and we’ve started the whole thing off again.

So to go all the way from F# to C takes us from the bottom of the circle (6pm), anticlockwise right round to the top (noon), which is ace. Actually, if you include the C#, it’s actually from 7pm to noon.

http://i.imgur.com/YMaEZrb.jpg

Other songs that make use of back-cycling:

- Still got the Blues
- Emporte Moi
- Europa
- Nordrach
- Y Volvere
- the MASH theme tune
- All the Things You Are
- the Pink Panther castle/moat scene
- Hello (Lionel Ritchie)
- Can I sit next to you girl (ACDC)
- Brother can you spare a dime
- Blue Bossa
- Parisienne Walkways
- I Will Survive
- Burn (the keyboard solo)
- Autumn Leaves

Thankyou very much for that detailed explanation @viz - much appreciated.

Unfortunately....

I need to do some studying to be able to understand what you've said !

Here's an idea ! - How about you do your Skype lessons for all of us ? :-) We could have an online communal class of forumites all learning from you in an interactive skype session ! I'd certainly bung a few quid in for something like that.

Emp_Fab · January 2019

p.s. - the piece in question is from a guy called Mike Mullen - https://soundcloud.com/synchro505

I only went hunting for it because I could hear it in the background of this Curious Droid video (a great YouTube channel)..

Mark1960 · January 2019

viz said:

I love this question, because it allows us to use the language of theory to explain why and how music works, which is exactly what theory is for and why it’s so important. So thank you for asking! What is the piece by the way?

The reason you love this progression so much, and why it’s so pleasing to the ear, is because it’s based on the most perfect of musical phrases - the ‘perfect cadence’ or V-I resolution. If you want more info about why the V-I is so perfect, we can discuss that later.

Anyway there are 7 such perfect cadences in this progression, which is awesome. Due to the fact that each time you go from the V chord to the I chord you are going down a 5th (or up a 4th), what you are doing is ‘back-cycling’ round the circle of 5ths. It’s an absolutely classic progression and it sticks hauntingly in your mind. And it’s made even more beautiful through the use of inversions, so the chords glide into each other instead of hopping about in leaps of 4ths. We can talk about that too if you wish.

How it plays out is this:

The whole thing is in F# minor, and the first thing that happens is we have a ‘parallel modulation’, just switching from F#m to F#7, setting us up for the first V-I.

Then we resolve up to B. Actually B minor, so it’s a V-i cadence, which is a legitimate perfect cadence.

Then it’s E7 - A, so the Bm - E was a v-I cadence (actually that’s not strictly speaking a perfect cadence because the v is minor, but it still counts as part of the back-cycle because it’s going up a 4th, so I’m counting it as our 2nd perfect cadence). And the E7 - A is our 3rd.

Then it’s D - G, so the move from A to D was our 4th V-I cadence, and the D - G is our 5th.

Then it’s G - C, which is our 6th V-I cadence.

Now, this could go on and on until all 12 keys are done and the circle is complete, but that would be tedious and we’d start to lose track of where home is, so the composer needs to position him/herself to start at F# again, and the way to do that is to somehow get to C#, for a final V-I to F#, ready for the next round; and the way that is done is this:

Firstly the chords go up in tones - from C to D then from D to E. Then from E down a minor 3rd to C#. That’s the final chord in the progression.

So all that’s left to do is resolve from the C# to the F#m, our 7th V-i cadence and we’ve started the whole thing off again.

So to go all the way from F# to C takes us from the bottom of the circle (6pm), anticlockwise right round to the top (noon), which is ace. Actually, if you include the C#, it’s actually from 7pm to noon.

http://i.imgur.com/YMaEZrb.jpg

Other songs that make use of back-cycling:

- Still got the Blues
- Emporte Moi
- Europa
- Nordrach
- Y Volvere
- the MASH theme tune
- All the Things You Are
- the Pink Panther castle/moat scene
- Hello (Lionel Ritchie)
- Can I sit next to you girl (ACDC)
- Brother can you spare a dime
- Blue Bossa
- Parisienne Walkways
- I Will Survive
- Burn (the keyboard solo)
- Autumn Leaves

That's exactly what I was about to say - LOL

viz · January 2019

Emp_Fab said:

Thankyou very much for that detailed explanation @viz - much appreciated.

Unfortunately....

I need to do some studying to be able to understand what you've said !

Here's an idea ! - How about you do your Skype lessons for all of us ? :-) We could have an online communal class of forumites all learning from you in an interactive skype session ! I'd certainly bung a few quid in for something like that.

Try reading it again, really really slowly - not being trite, it’s just quite complex and dense; though quite logical.

That’s actually not a bad idea about the webinar - I could do different grades even

Roysterdoyster · January 2019

Can I ask, do writers tend to write music like the subject by design, as they have all this theoretical knowledge, or do they come up with progressions/melodies as they were in their head/sounded good, and it just so happens to be what the likes of @viz has explained. I always wonder that?

viz · January 2019

I have always thought, compelling music has to come from the heart not the brain; however it is true that building your musical knowledge will expand your compositional scope. But 80% of it is there to explain not inspire, imo.

CarpeDiem · January 2019

Good question @Emp_Fab, and an excellent answer from @viz Every time I learn more about the Circle Of Fifths, it seems even more useful than I had realised.

shrinkwrap · January 2019

Thanks for that Wiz - most excellent.

So did Bach do this quite often or am I just picking up on the inversions that sound Bachian?

viz · January 2019

shrinkwrap said:

Thanks for that Wiz - most excellent.
So did Bach do this quite often or am I just picking up on the inversions that sound Bachian?

Sounds like Bach / Vivaldi but actually I’m not aware of any good examples of progressions beyond 4 chords or so, which are just 6251s. There probably are some. I think the inversions have a lot to do with it, like you say.

bingefeller · January 2019

@viz once again proving he is the forum's resident theory expert.

robinbowes · January 2019

This isn't quite the same, but has a similar sound (and is worth listening to because it's fantastic!):

Emp_Fab · January 2019

viz said:

Emp_Fab said:

Thankyou very much for that detailed explanation @viz - much appreciated.

Unfortunately....

I need to do some studying to be able to understand what you've said !

Here's an idea ! - How about you do your Skype lessons for all of us ? :-) We could have an online communal class of forumites all learning from you in an interactive skype session ! I'd certainly bung a few quid in for something like that.

Try reading it again, really really slowly - not being trite, it’s just quite complex and dense; though quite logical.

That’s actually not a bad idea about the webinar - I could do different grades even

Give it some serious thought mate. I think there would be loads of us who would love to come to a virtual classroom where we could put our virtual hand up and ask relevant questions etc. That makes all the difference - just watching a video is ok but if you don't fully grasp something, you're stuck. Being able to interact with the teacher and the class brings it to life.

Plus, I think it's something the forum itself would benefit hugely from.... A music forum with its own virtual classroom! @digitalscream

Modellista · February 2019

An excellent answer from @viz. ; Very well-explained, it's not hard to understand if you read it step-by-step.

finest1 · February 2019

interesting topic and great effort for the explanation! I happen to post a similar topic. I wonder if that theory applies?

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/150959/whats-this-style-of-blues-called#latest

Emp_Fab · December 2019

@viz ; I also find myself drawn inexplicably to this piece - John Barry's 'The Beyondness of Things'. Is there anything on the theory side that might explain this, like your excellent diagnosis of that first track?

Emp_Fab · December 2019

@viz ;; I also find myself drawn inexplicably to this piece - John Barry's 'The Beyondness of Things'. Is there anything on the theory side that might explain this, like your excellent diagnosis of that first track?

viz · January 2020

Emp_Fab said:

@viz ;; I also find myself drawn inexplicably to this piece - John Barry's 'The Beyondness of Things'. Is there anything on the theory side that might explain this, like your excellent diagnosis of that first track?

Hellooo

well I love Barry but I find this a bit of an ugly progression - it sounds nice enough because it has horns and strings and a flute but the harmonies aren’t nearly as natural as in the other one.

It’s in C major initially and does that very lovely, immense I-v progression, with C major and G minor - I love that, you hear it a lot in space movies. Major tonic with a minor dominant. It’s very mixolydianish because the minor 3rd of the v chord is the minor 7th of the tonic.

Then it does that odd modulation from C to D - initially D major, though he then uses the bVI chord (Bb major), which is borrowed from D minor. Later on he modulates to D minor anyway. Anyhoo, whether he’s in D major or D minor, he uses the Bb. And sometimes he uses the Gm instead of the Bb (which is the iv of D minor) so he can then go up to V of D minor, which is the A7, ready for a resolution to D major (or D minor) - EXCEPT that the first time round he resolves it to the original C again, which I must say sounds bizarre to me! But later on he uses the A7 more conventionally and resolves to D minor.

And it carries on in the same spirit!

Emp_Fab · January 2020

Thanks very much. I can't pretend I understand much of it to be honest. My knowledge of theory is shocking. I was just interested to see if it had a 'magical hook' to it like the previous piece.

viz · January 2020

Theory is really easy - it’s just maths, language and hearing! I think any magic in this piece lies in the mellifluousness of the tune floating over those dodgy chord changes beneath.

If you want gorgeous tunes try this, check it out right until the last note!

https://youtu.be/jManmjjwnTE

ArchtopDave · January 2020

viz said:

Theory is really easy - it’s just maths, language and hearing! I think any magic in this piece lies in the mellifluousness of the tune floating over those dodgy chord changes beneath.

If you want gorgeous tunes try this, check it out right until the last note!

https://youtu.be/jManmjjwnTE

@viz Thanks for posting this video. I have a longstanding love of cello music, and am of such an age that I saw the great french cellist, Paul Tortelier, play on a number of occasions. I don't think I've been aware of these Rachmaninov pieces before, so this CD has just arrived, and is currently playing.

viz · January 2020

ArchtopDave said:

viz said:

Theory is really easy - it’s just maths, language and hearing! I think any magic in this piece lies in the mellifluousness of the tune floating over those dodgy chord changes beneath.

If you want gorgeous tunes try this, check it out right until the last note!

https://youtu.be/jManmjjwnTE

@viz Thanks for posting this video. I have a longstanding love of cello music, and am of such an age that I saw the great french cellist, Paul Tortelier, play on a number of occasions. I don't think I've been aware of these Rachmaninov pieces before, so this CD has just arrived, and is currently playing.

Awesome wow Paul Tortelier

Yes, Vocalise and the Romances are gorgeous aren’t they? (And obviously the cello sonata)

Dominic · February 2020

All of this original explanation ,excluding the Rachmaninov ,is the perfect reason to listen to Baroque music -there is so much to learn from it .When I first went to jazz piano lessons the teacher simply asked if I listened to Bach ......I told him that I hated it and he said "then you will never play Jazz ....go and LISTEN "....that proved so true .
From a time when there was no way to play chords on a piano and everything depended on Arpeggio ,figured Bass and mathematical progression .
Any Fugue is a perpetual striving for extended resolution.
The "Well Tempered Clavier "will investigate each key in such way .
The C minor is my favourite .
Chopin came to elaborate on this in the preludes having the later benefit of polyphony from a piano and thus being able to stretch harmony to the romantic degree.

viz · February 2020

Dominic said:

All of this original explanation ,excluding the Rachmaninov ,is the perfect reason to listen to Baroque music -there is so much to learn from it .When I first went to jazz piano lessons the teacher simply asked if I listened to Bach ......I told him that I hated it and he said "then you will never play Jazz ....go and LISTEN "....that proved so true .
From a time when there was no way to play chords on a piano and everything depended on Arpeggio ,figured Bass and mathematical progression .
Any Fugue is a perpetual striving for extended resolution.
The "Well Tempered Clavier "will investigate each key in such way .
The C minor is my favourite .
Chopin came to elaborate on this in the preludes having the later benefit of polyphony from a piano and thus being able to stretch harmony to the romantic degree.

Indeed, and even Rachmaninov loved playing Bach, particularly the partitas

and he dabbled in Jazz - check out his paganini variations, no. 10

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Why is this chord sequence pleasing to me ?

Comments