Do you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

ElectroDan · April 2014

@GuyBoden I've played a lot of gigs with some great bands, and I'm at the point where my co-ordination and dexterity allow me to play almost anything I need to. I've never properly learned all the notes over the whole fretboard, because instead of that I honed in on the tone of the playing instead (picking accuracy, bending, vibrato).

This approach has made me perfectly able to do what I enjoy, which is play stuff I already know, really well. If I have to come up with an original solo over a song, I create it in my mind first, then teach it to my fingers which works for me.

Now one of the downsides is I'm not really good at improvising, or instantly working out where inversions are. I remember visually where i'm supposed to be, which I feel would be supported by knowing the notes. And lately I have been thinking of making more of an effort to do just that.

So the answer to your question is: It depends what kind of player you want to be. I see lot's of guys who know infinitely more theory than I do, that can't play as well as I do.... I wouldn't swap with them for anything. The trick is to use knowledge and technique together like Guthrie, Pete Thorne, Steve Lukather and other great guitarists.

octatonic · April 2014

frankus said:

octatonic said:

It is certainly helpful and not very hard to learn.

I'd be interested how you'd advise it - the last two, three.. err more than three attempts have not met with success the rest of the lessons were shiny but the fretboard knowledge ouch - some mental block!

It's not like these guys were dufii either, in fact very very much the reverse - you'll know three of them straight away and the fourth is a local jazzer of good repute.

.. so what am I doing wrong?

Quitting too soon, perhaps?

It takes a while to get things under your belt.

I did it just through playing and being obsessed.

I did everything I could to memorise the fretboard- writing it out all the time, thinking about it, playing scales & arpeggios, playing the Metheny game.

The Metheny game is quite simple.

Think of a note- lets say Eb.

You then have to play all the Eb notes that you can find, cleanly.

Try not to rush but don't do it too slow.

I try to get people to do it in pitch order but you don't have to.

Then do it again with a different note, and repeat and repeat.

Do this every time you pick up the guitar.

I heard about it from a Pat Metheny interview, hence the name.

How much playing do you do?

How do you structure your time?

Bellycaster · April 2014

I think you should do it, you can get very good playing "by ear", but I find a "Road Map" helps a lot and unlocks your potential.

YMMV on this, but I'll share the route I have taken. I know some others on here may hate this advice or method, but it's worth sticking my 2p 'orth in as you might click with it.

For me finding the notes on the Neck has been made easier by learning Scale Patterns/Intervals, also by learning about Arpeggios, Chord Structure and Chord Intervals, Chords to me are "A Pattern Within a Scale" in "Road Map" terms, but they are also "Notes Stacked on Top of Each Other" in building block terms.

If you want to do it this way, you will have to learn the 5 Minor and 5 Major Pentatonic Scale Patterns and The 5 Major Scale Patterns all over the neck (CAGED SYSTEM) ignore that term for now. This is not as daunting as it sounds, because once you have learned these scales in one Key, you have learned them in every key, just about everything is movable on the Guitar and it can be done a lot quicker than you think, I kid thee not.

Your first port of call should be Justin Sandercoe (Justinguitar.com) for excellent teaching.

Scales helped me understand that I will be playing in a certain "Key", they made me understand what the ROOT NOTE was and which notes resolved best to the ROOT NOTE and which notes sounded better over which chords within the KEY.

The experience will come from you playing and playing and playing, then playing some more over songs/backing tracks "in a given key" and you will recognise which notes sound best over different chords. The irony is that it can become a "playing by ear" thing in this scenario, but it's made easier by knowing which notes not to play, because they sound horrendous and are not in that Key/Scale.

The game changes when you have to solo over a progression that introduces mixed chords that are in different keys or chord progs that contain altered chords and there are lots and lots of songs like this and not just in Jazz.

This is where your learning of CHORD STRUCTURE comes in by taking the progression apart into it's building blocks "The Chords" and either looking at each chord as being embedded within a certain scale or looking at the chord in it's building block's "It's Notes" which could be described as before as the Chord's "Intervals".

Lo and Behold both Scales and Chords have intervals, the Intervals of a given chord within a given scale are called the "Chord Tones", playing all the chord tones in sequence up and down will mean you have just played the Arpeggio of that Chord.

Bellycaster · April 2014

CONTINUED!

It helps a lot to know where the notes are on your neck, your root notes are in all positions of scales. Understanding Intervals also helps you to name chords you find you like and to understand a Chord's Quality (Major, Minor, Dominant)and what 7th's, 9th's, 11th's and 13th's are (extensions). "There's that root note again helping me find the 9th on the High "E" string, My Root is "A" so I Know the 9th is "B".

It does require that you knuckle down a bit to grasp the concept, but it will be worth the headaches. I'm making slow progress with this latter bit with altered chords and unusual progs, but I know the more time and effort I put in will be worth it and it'll slowly get easier. At this level at the moment I would find it easier to construct rather than improvise, but one step at a time, that applies to both of us.

I hope you don't already know all this cos my fingers are hurting from typing.

;-)

So, go get a few packets of Anadin and strap yourself in for the ride.

:-D

koneguitarist · April 2014

I think, if you play Bass it's very very handy to know them, with guitar it's a benefit but not essential, but will make you a better player imho

Jalapeno · April 2014

If you don't you need to have a great ear.

I cant. and I don't

Tab FTW !!!!

)

LastMantra · April 2014

I'd say yes, definitely.....if you are into "painting by numbers".

An painter mixes his paints on his palette, but does he have a colour chart next to him to make sure he is mixing them "correctly"?

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop. You can walk to the shop on your hands if you want. Convention?!

Lazy? ...nah, don't be a dick.

Grunfeld · April 2014

LastMantra said:

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop....

What struck me with this analogy is that "walking to the shops" is equivalent to "listening to music" -- and you are right, you don't need to know the names of bones to be able to walk or the names of notes to enjoy listening to music.

But if you have surgeons talking about the foot then straight away they will be talking about metatarsals, cuboids, particular tendons, and so on. The language of anatomy enables communication about a specialised subject. Similarly, the language of music enables musicians to communicate about their specialised subject.

The depth and level of knowledge required depends on what you need it for. I don't a knowledge of anatomy which an orthopaedic surgeon has, and as a musician I don't need as much knowledge of music as a classical composer. But to chat to other musicians knowing the names of the notes, at the very least, is a great help.

octatonic · April 2014

Grunfeld said:

LastMantra said:

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop....

What struck me with this analogy is that "walking to the shops" is equivalent to "listening to music" -- and you are right, you don't need to know the names of bones to be able to walk or the names of notes to enjoy listening to music.

But if you have surgeons talking about the foot then straight away they will be talking about metatarsals, cuboids, particular tendons, and so on. The language of anatomy enables communication about a specialised subject. Similarly, the language of music enables musicians to communicate about their specialised subject.

The depth and level of knowledge required depends on what you need it for. As a physio I don't need the type of knowledge of anatomy as an orthopaedic surgeon, and as a musician I don't need as much knowledge of music as a classical composer. But to chat to other musicians knowing the names of the notes, at the very least, is a great help.

Very good response.

Wisdom awarded.

LastMantra · April 2014

Grunfeld said:

LastMantra said:

You don't need to be able to name every bone in your foot to walk to the shop....

What struck me with this analogy is that "walking to the shops" is equivalent to "listening to music" -- and you are right, you don't need to know the names of bones to be able to walk or the names of notes to enjoy listening to music.

But if you have surgeons talking about the foot then straight away they will be talking about metatarsals, cuboids, particular tendons, and so on. The language of anatomy enables communication about a specialised subject. Similarly, the language of music enables musicians to communicate about their specialised subject.

The depth and level of knowledge required depends on what you need it for. I don't a knowledge of anatomy which an orthopaedic surgeon has, and as a musician I don't need as much knowledge of music as a classical composer. But to chat to other musicians knowing the names of the notes, at the very least, is a great help.

That's *one* way of looking at it. I'm certainly not saying it's the wrong way. All I'm saying is that you don't need to approach your art in a certain way.

I probably don't spend much time talking to other "musicians" about notes and scales...not my bag.

Roland · April 2014

It might be more useful to answer the question "how does knowing the notes on the fretboard affect your guitar playing".

Knowing the names of the notes is one sort of knowledge. There's also knowing shapes and patterns, and then there's knowing which incidentals work around chord tones.

I learned the names of all the notes within months of starting to play. It took longer to understand which notes fitted together to make the chords and scales I wanted to play, and longer still before my fingers could automatically find the notes I wanted to hear in any situation.

Now if I were playing minor and major blues then the pentatonic shapes, plus a few extra notes, would get me through. It would work for most other types of music too. Similarly, knowing chord shapes and what to play around them will get me through, although it will give a different flavour. In either case I would not need to name the notes I was using.

Knowing the names of all the notes is useful for communication, and for understanding which notes fit together. It also helps to take away 'fear of the unknown', where the dustier end of the fret board doesn't get used because you don't know what you'll find there.

viz · April 2014

I bet almost all the advanced players on here have a deeper understanding of theory than almost all the less advanced players. To me, theoretical knowledge and playing ability go hand-in-hand. And by 'advanced' I don't mean really mean the more mature of us who may have perfected a particular style and feel of playing. I mean people who have mastered many different styles, who can play in many keys and can improvise to different pieces even on first hearing.

GuyBoden · April 2014

My post was really because I see many good players seemingly stuck to using the same areas of the fretboard, but playing some great music, so I questioned is there really a need to know all the notes of the fretboard. Which I think has been answered in the post very well.

I'm 50, I started by playing easy pop records by ear, but then had classical lessons as a teenager, so I had to learn all the notes on the fretboard in each position. later, I used the Caged and then 3 note per string fretboard mappings,.

LastMantra · April 2014

viz said:

I bet almost all the advanced players on here have a deeper understanding of theory than almost all the less advanced players. To me, theoretical knowledge and playing ability go hand-in-hand. And by 'advanced' I don't mean really mean the more mature of us who may have perfected a particular style and feel of playing. I mean people who have mastered many different styles, who can play in many keys and can improvise to different pieces even on first hearing.

To me you are describing a session guitarist. Nothing wrong with that, but again...not my bag.

Danny1969 · April 2014

I just worked out where every E was, then every G and then C etc. You then find B by aiming one fret down from the C and so on. The dots on the neck showing the 5th, 7th and 12th frets are a big help obviously.

I would get peeved if I worked with anyone in a band who didn't know the notes ..... it would make communicating musically a lot harder.

GuyBoden · April 2014

Danny1969 said:

I just worked out where every E was, then every G and then C etc. You then find B by aiming one fret down from the C and so on. The dots on the neck showing the 5th, 7th and 12th frets are a big help obviously.

I would get peeved if I worked with anyone in a band who didn't know the notes ..... it would make communicating musically a lot harder.

IMO, If you really want to know the whole fretboard and retain the information, you need a system, CAGED, 3 notes per string etc.

The small patterns make a large pattern, the large patterns make the whole fretboard.

Grunfeld · April 2014

Danny1969 said:

I would get peeved if I worked with anyone in a band who didn't know the notes ..... it would make communicating musically a lot harder.

Agreed. You know that look you see on your drummer's face when you say "It's in E..." -- well, you don't really want to see that look on your guitarist's face.

Or keyboard player -- could you imagine a keyboard player who didn't know where any of the notes were? I think that's incomprehensible. Keyboard players know all the notes, even the useless ones.

viz · April 2014

LastMantra said:

viz said:

I bet almost all the advanced players on here have a deeper understanding of theory than almost all the less advanced players. To me, theoretical knowledge and playing ability go hand-in-hand. And by 'advanced' I don't mean really mean the more mature of us who may have perfected a particular style and feel of playing. I mean people who have mastered many different styles, who can play in many keys and can improvise to different pieces even on first hearing.

To me you are describing a session guitarist. Nothing wrong with that, but again...not my bag.

yep you're probably right, that's what i had in mind without vocalising it properly.

EricTheWeary · April 2014

Having done the send kids to learn an instrument thing its interesting that for reed instruments, at least, the process is learning whats there one note at a time. This is where you put your fingers to play C, this is where you put your fingers to play B,etc,. So learning the mechanics of the instrument and learning the notes are completely linked. I know the range on these instruments is relatively limited compared to a guitar but I dont think you would find many clarinetists who dont know the names of the notes. On a guitar you can find your way around and make a tuneful noise with bugger all musical knowledge or even much idea of the mechanics. However, unless you are amazingly gifted thats going to be very limited. Even well known players like BB king or Steve lukather who say they dont know theory are really protesting too much. What they mean is they dont know theory as well as other musicians do but they know the names of notes, chord types, some scales,etc,etc.

And as incompetent a guitarist as I am I can't imagine being in a band and note being able to name the notes on the fretboard, even if not instantly.

HAL9000 · April 2014

Roland said:

Knowing the names of the notes is one sort of knowledge. There's also knowing shapes and patterns, and then there's knowing which incidentals work around chord tones.

Now if I were playing minor and major blues then the pentatonic shapes, plus a few extra notes, would get me through. It would work for most other types of music too. Similarly, knowing chord shapes and what to play around them will get me through,

I think the trouble with learning shapes is that without some understanding it can be limiting. Yes, it will 'get you through' but knowing where the notes are and how they relate to chords and progressions will make it easier to think outside the (pentatonic) box and be more inventive with solos and fills.

That said, when a solo starts to all come apart at the seams as will inevitably happen from time to time, having the pentatonics to fall back on can be very useful.

I've often regretted learning the minor pentatonic shapes quite early on as like Roland pointed out it would 'get me through' and I didn't feel the need at the time to go much beyond that. However, as I've learnt more theory, positions of notes, etc, I certainly feel that my playing is better thought through, more structured, and I am getting more enjoyment from my playing than before.

Danny1969 · April 2014

Grunfeld said:

Danny1969 said:

I would get peeved if I worked with anyone in a band who didn't know the notes ..... it would make communicating musically a lot harder.

Agreed. You know that look you see on your drummer's face when you say "It's in E..." -- well, you don't really want to see that look on your guitarist's face.

Or keyboard player -- could you imagine a keyboard player who didn't know where any of the notes were? I think that's incomprehensible. Keyboard players know all the notes, even the useless ones.

Yes indeed

Re the keyboard, I'm a keys player and first thing I learnt was where the D note is. The C# and D# form a kennel I was told and the dogs (D note) in the kennel. So you quickly know where every D is on the keyboard, then it's not hard to learn the rest.

Guitarist on the whole are lazy buggers, and tab is the work of the devil

GuyBoden · April 2014

I've been playing since I was a young teenager, I can visualise the whole fretboard in most keys, I changed to P4 tuning about 4 years ago so I had to relearn the fretboard.

For 7 string P4 tuning, I use this system to visualise the whole fretboard , it uses 3 child patterns that make 7 parent patterns that make the whole fretboard:

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Do you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

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