Do you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

GuyBoden · April 2014

Do you think you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

octatonic · April 2014

'Need' is a relative term.

Need for what?

It is certainly helpful and not very hard to learn.

GuyBoden · April 2014

octatonic said:

'Need' is a relative term.
Need for what?

It is certainly helpful and not very hard to learn.

So, is that a no then?

not_the_dj · April 2014

I don't, well not instantly anyway apart from the low E and A strings. I can work out the rest if I need to from where the octave is two strings up. That gets me by. They'll be others that have stuck in my memory I guess.

octatonic · April 2014

From me, actually it is a yes.

I urge people to learn the notes if they want to be versatile players, want to understand their instrument and want to be able to play all over the neck.

Some people don't want to do that though and 'need' is very much based on what you want to do.

It certainly won't hurt to know them and frankly if someone is too lazy to learn the notes then they are probably too lazy to do all the other stuff it takes to get good on the guitar.

But again, none of this is compulsory.

GuyBoden · April 2014

octatonic said:

From me, actually it is a yes.
I urge people to learn the notes if they want to be versatile players, want to understand their instrument and want to be able to play all over the neck.

Some people don't want to do that though and 'need' is very much based on what you want to do.

It certainly won't hurt to know them and frankly if someone is too lazy to learn the notes then they are probably too lazy to do all the other stuff it takes to get good on the guitar.
But again, none of this is compulsory.

I see, I get what you're saying, very Zen, basically there is no real need for anything, that's very profound.

mike_l · April 2014

James Hetfield doesn't and is hasn't harmed him.......

I'd say learn them, much easier to work out chords, and scales etc if you can analyse what notes you're playing. And you'll be able to transpose into different keys more easily.

Danny1969 · April 2014

You really do need to know where all the notes are. You need them to build chords, harmonize with others instantly without hitting a whole bunch of duff notes first. And what @Mike_l said as well

I'm an old duffer. When I learnt guitar there was no tab ... so first thing we learnt was where all the notes were so we could play piano score on the guitar.

viz · April 2014

My opinion is: yes. Though as Octa says, it sort of depends on what you want to do. For me, I want to get to the bottom of this guitar thingy, and that means theory, technique, technology, composition, performance, fun with bands, etc, etc. And if I want to progress as far as my abilities will let me, then not knowing the instrument will definitely hold me back. I just had a guitar / music lesson and if I hadn't known the notes it would have been seriously slow progress and very frustrating for him. And very confusing for me. I suppose it's personal. But for me it's a yes.

monquixote · April 2014

Do you have to: Nope

Does it help: Yep

Grunfeld · April 2014

GuyBoden said:

Do you think you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

On your own, no; with other musicians, yes.

Sure, you can get by without knowing your notes but why would anyone do that? This is our language, it's the way we communicate swiftly, accurately, and easily to others.

axisus · April 2014

I know some of the notes up to the first 5 frets. Seriously that's about it. I probably only know then because of bass playing, following root notes.

HAL9000 · April 2014

Definitely yes from me. Having learnt where the notes are, it is easier to construct properly thought out solos and fills. Before I knew the names of the notes everything was just so much mindless pentatonic widdling.

octatonic · April 2014

GuyBoden said:

octatonic said:

From me, actually it is a yes.
I urge people to learn the notes if they want to be versatile players, want to understand their instrument and want to be able to play all over the neck.

Some people don't want to do that though and 'need' is very much based on what you want to do.

It certainly won't hurt to know them and frankly if someone is too lazy to learn the notes then they are probably too lazy to do all the other stuff it takes to get good on the guitar.
But again, none of this is compulsory.

I see, I get what you're saying, very Zen, basically there is no real need for anything, that's very profound.

That isn't what I'm saying.

You need to decide what sort of player you want to be.

Some players can do it without knowing much about the mechanics of music or the instrument.

Most people who try and do it this way are hacks but occasionally some work it out and get to be good or even great musicians.

It is much, much easier if you study guitar like you would study anything else- methodically and from first principles.

But it isn't compulsory.

The universe doesn't care whether you learn guitar or how you learn it.

Only YOU matter here- what sort of player do you want to be?

Who are your musical idols?

If you answer this then you can think about whether you need to learn guitar as a craft, or not.

randomhandclaps · April 2014

GuyBoden said:

octatonic said:

From me, actually it is a yes.
I urge people to learn the notes if they want to be versatile players, want to understand their instrument and want to be able to play all over the neck.

Some people don't want to do that though and 'need' is very much based on what you want to do.

It certainly won't hurt to know them and frankly if someone is too lazy to learn the notes then they are probably too lazy to do all the other stuff it takes to get good on the guitar.

But again, none of this is compulsory.
I see, I get what you're saying, very Zen, basically there is no real need for anything, that's very profound.

Quite clearly that wasn't what was being said though was it? With any skill the 'need' is completely relative to the requirements of the individual or the task. If you never plan on jumping in to water then you probably don't 'need' to know how to swim, however it is still a worthy skill to have.

Do you need to know all the notes on the fretboard? If you want to sit in an orchestra pit in the West End then almost certainly yes. If you want to play in your own band playing your own compositions then it's not a necessity. If you are auditioning for Mark E Smith then is probably a major disadvantage.

I put a good deal of work into learning each note and scale position on my guitar, then when I found out how useful it was I learned them on all of my other guitars as well. B-)

daveww · April 2014

If you're going to get beyond playing scale patterns to chord tones and arpeggios etc it's certainly going to be very useful

richardhomer · April 2014

If you are working with other people I'd say it's pretty much essential as it is a straight-forward way of communicating music's structure. With another guitarist or bass player, you can show them the part; with keys or a horn player, you can't.

Some people seem to take pride is their lack of musical knowledge - but as @Octatonic said, this is generally down to laziness.

My musical knowledge is not immense. I'm self-taught but have tried to widen my knowledge base as much as I can. For example, when playing over a blues progression in A, I found playing a B flat over the E chord sounded really good - which was fine but I wanted to understand why, as it is clearly not a note that forms part of the tonic scale.

The answer is that it is the flattened fifth of the 'five' chord, hence, in the context of a blues, it 'should' work. I don't think developing an understanding of these things has any down-side. I certainly don't subscribe to the view that 'feel' players are somehow diminished by knowing more.

Being able to to communicate musical ideas quickly and straight-forwardly with other players is an important skill when it comes to being a rounded player. This is best done by being able to use the 'language' of music....

JAYJO · April 2014

I find it useful to know the notes.

At present im learning to play diatonically in 5 different positions, so im finding the nearest chord to each position with as little movement as possible ou of position.(presently just maj min maj7 min7 the basics)

Knowing the chord formulas and note locations helps me do this. Infact one helps the other ie Looking for the chord notes helps me learn where the notes are on the fretboard.

I got fed up learning scales up and down as the notes where overlooked for the shapes and i hardly ever have cause to race up or down a scale. I do though cling to the pentatonic scale (all 5 positions) but i dont see anything wrong with this theres lots of milage in that scale and i use it as a frame for what im doing now (again viewing shapes rather than notes).

I am self taught and guilty of being proud of the fact in the past but not so much now. I find it inspiring to hear that great players are still having lessons, something i overlooked for many years and not to have had any lessons imo has been a big mistake.

PolarityMan · April 2014

Side question, when you're playing down tuned do you still call the notes by the names they would be if you were standard tuned? I know I do.

randomhandclaps · April 2014

PolarityMan said:

Side question, when you're playing down tuned do you still call the notes by the names they would be if you were standard tuned? I know I do.

Provided the rest of the band are using the same method then it doesn't really matter.

axisus · April 2014

HAL9000 said:

Before I knew the names of the notes everything was just so much mindless pentatonic widdling.

That describes my playing pretty well actually.

frankus · April 2014

octatonic said:

It is certainly helpful and not very hard to learn.

I'd be interested how you'd advise it - the last two, three.. err more than three attempts have not met with success

the rest of the lessons were shiny but the fretboard knowledge ouch - some mental block!

It's not like these guys were dufii either, in fact very very much the reverse - you'll know three of them straight away and the fourth is a local jazzer of good repute.

.. so what am I doing wrong?

carlos · April 2014

It's actually much easier than it seems if you also get a good grasp of where the intervals are on the fretboard. Learning the two together really unlocks the instrument. I'd say it's useful for most if not all styles of guitar playing. Even for basic rock riffing, it's nice to be able to instantly transpose a riff up and octave for instance, whether it's going up and down the neck in close string groups (i.e. going from an A on 6th string 5th fret to an A on the 5th string 12th fret) or by staying in same position more or less and going for different string groups (i.e. going from an A on 6th string 5th fret to an A on the 3rd string 2nd fret).

Cirrus · April 2014

I don't think about the notes under my fingers while I'm playing - I work based on what feels right, a knowledge of patterns on the neck - i.e. if I'm playing this note here, then the octave down is here, the octave up is here, here are the 5ths 3rds etc, if I want to do a maj 7th from where I am now it'll be here. And those intervals are chosen because of how I think they'll feel to play, not because I'm thinking "Now a second bent up to a minor third will be a good choice".

But if you stopped me and said what note are you playing now, I'd answer straight away and I do know which notes correspond to each fret/ string. I just find the knowledge becomes internalised to the point that I don't think about it unless I have to communicate with someone else.

mike_l · April 2014

@frankus ; What worked for me was the "E-F-G" test IE pick 3 note ( eg E-F-G hence the name) and find them across the fretboard on each successive string. I'd start with no sharps or flats and 5-10 minutes per session.

I normally do E-F-G then A-B-C then C-D-E.

RocknRollDave · April 2014

Grunfeld said:

GuyBoden said:

Do you think you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

On your own, no; with other musicians, yes.

Sure, you can get by without knowing your notes but why would anyone do that? This is our language, it's the way we communicate swiftly, accurately, and easily to others.

This.

I've never sat down and "learned" the notes on the fretboard, it just kind of sinks in after playing for so long. I don't know them all straight away, but the ones that don't come instantly are easy enough to work out in a couple of seconds or so.

I don't really see it as something that is learned as an academic exercise, just part of the knowledge that you amass with experience.

digitalscream · April 2014

If you have no need to explain (in words) to others what you're playing, then no.

However, it certainly helps to have an understanding of scale/mode shapes and intervals. In fact, given the way the guitar works, I'd say that was more important than knowing the names of the notes. Let's face it, you can still play most notes in 5 places on the first twelve frets of a guitar anyway; saying "play a G" doesn't really explain what you're doing. "Play a G on the first octave of the bottom string" is a lot more wordy than saying "3rd fret, bottom string".

If you're talking to guitarists and/or bassists, the latter is far more efficient. If you're talking to anyone else, then the more verbose version is probably going to be required.

frankus · April 2014

I don't know - I can see positive usage in chords as they're only voicings and the root can occur on any of the notes ... or it can even be based off a 3rd or stuff so knowing the notes under my fingers when I find a nice voicing tips me off to the inversions I might want to try substituting it for as well.

@mike_l ta, I'll give that a try - tbh Austin Panda Car (I'm not about to namedrop) showed me that and insisted I used a metronome - but I was crap at practicing it. I've got enough metronomes around the house to try that again.

chrisj1602 · April 2014

I started to play in band not long ago, we were working on a song, I told the bass player what note to play and he didn't have a clue, he just said "I don't know the notes, what fret?" I had to to tell him the string and fret and he counted the frets, not even using the markers and then still played wrong. I am not in that band anymore.

Cirrus · April 2014

chrisj1602 said:

I started to play in band not long ago, we were working on a song, I told the bass player what note to play and he didn't have a clue, he just said "I don't know the notes, what fret?" I had to to tell him the string and fret and he counted the frets, not even using the markers and then still played wrong. I am not in that band anymore.

We've all been to that place, only the lucky ones get to leave.

randomhandclaps · April 2014

chrisj1602 said:

I told the bass player what note to play and he didn't have a clue,

Although it's easy to point the finger at the bass player, looking back it was a silly question to ask.... like when people ask their dog who's at the door.

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Do you need to know the notes on the fretboard?

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