Slotted headstocks

bertie · May 2022

malcolmkindness said:

Gandalph said:
Apart from the aesthetics I also like the fact that my wrist sits at a more natural angle when tuning up.

This was my point as well when I said they were easier to use.

certainly wont argue with that bit

Dave_Mc · May 2022

drofluf said:

Of my guitars the one I find hardest to restring is the Telecaster - it has vintage/slotted tuners where you poke the string down the shaft, it's great that there's no sharp end to stab you but I struggle with the plain B & E (actually A & D but that's another story).

Since the last restring I've found a thread on here that seems to make it easier.

I do some kind of locking wrap on those style of tuners. I came across a video on Youtube which explains it pretty well. And yeah the "no sharp end to stab you" is the beauty of those type of tuners!

bertie said:

TheMadMick said:

It's just a bit fiddly. Don't let it put you off if you really want the guitar. It's like so much in this game, it gets easier with practice.

I wouldnt get shot of my Tanglewood because of it for sure - it is defo "lack of practice" but I find it a complete ball ache compared to the simplicity of normal headstock/tuners.

Thanks

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

How much harder are they to restring? Bearing in mind my restringing technique is ropey at the best of times...

Not harder at all really, although it does depend if you're restringing the whole guitar or not. If you are, you just make sure you take the strings off from the top end first and work towards the nut, and then restring the other way. It can be a bit of a pain to replace just one string from a row nearer the nut.

Brilliant, thanks for the info, I'll try to remember that if I ever do get round to getting it!

Basher · May 2022

Here's my Stanford/Furch OM. I'm not really sure about the aesthetics of it TBH.
Clearly I liked it enough to buy the thing but it's neither a parlour or a 12-fretter so it's possibly not quite "right" in appearance. At the time I was liking stuff like the Martin 0-28 Norman Blake and the Breedlove Jeff Tweedy but didn't have the money required for those. I got this as a cheaper alternative and, while it has some of the visual qualities of those two, it's 14th fret body join probably makes it look a bit odd.
Nice guitar but I do find myself wishing it had a regular headstock at restring time.

Image: https://live.staticflickr.com/3593/3460051172_434acf68a0_b.jpg

Winny_Pooh · May 2022

Lakewood

ICBM · May 2022

The only thing that makes those look odd (in my opinion) is the uncompromisingly square headstock end and corners - it looks almost chopped-off, even compared to a Martin one. Other than that I think the slot head and 14th-fret join work perfectly together.

rogd · May 2022

I go weak at the knees when I see a small 12 fretter slothead.
The geezers in the white coats are coming tomorrow!

Dave_Mc · May 2022

ICBM said:

The only thing that makes those look odd (in my opinion) is the uncompromisingly square headstock end and corners - it looks almost chopped-off, even compared to a Martin one. Other than that I think the slot head and 14th-fret join work perfectly together.

Yeah same here EDIT: Full disclosure, though- it's probably sacrilege but I'm not that keen on the Martin square design even on regular headstocks!

Tannin · May 2022

ICBM said:

The only way to have as steep a break angle with a solid head as with a slotted one is to angle the headstock back further like, eg., a Fender.
Simple geometry .

FTFY.

A maker can build any desired headstock angle, subject only to giving appropriate thought to the mechanical robustness of the join. (Cough, cough, Gibson.)

Tannin · May 2022

ICBM said:

thermionic said:

Why hasn’t anyone made a 12-string acoustic with a Rickenbacker arrangement of tuners?

(Someone will probably link to a photo of such a thing now…)

Unsurprisingly, they did .

Other than that, because if anyone else used it they would get a lawyergram from Mr. Hall.

Great picture!

But no, that is not something you can trademark or copyright. You could probably patent it, but (a) the patent wouldn't stand up* because the idea is too obvious, and (b) because it would have run out long, long ago. You could patent a particular way of implementing it, but that wouldn't be much help.

Maton in Australia used to make 12-strings with that both-ways headstock. That was in the 1960s, maybe the 70s. From memory, they were semi-acoustics. Not sure if they did full acoustics that way or not. If I remember, I'll check the books after lunch.

* Except in front of a US jury because US juries will believe absolutely anything.

Tannin · May 2022

thermionic said:

Why hasn’t anyone made a 12-string acoustic with a Rickenbacker arrangement of tuners?

(Someone will probably link to a photo of such a thing now…)

Great prediction!

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

(Matthew 7, 7-8.)

bertie · May 2022

notice the difference in the "slot widths" and/or "amount of wood surround" between the Furch and the Lakewoods

just an observation, nothing meant/suggested

PAL · May 2022

Break angle across the nut does change the sound and tension of the string. They can be difficult to restring at first but
once you get use to it it's not a problem.

Tannin · May 2022

^ Stewth! Them's fighting words.

(Tannin goes out to get some popcorn)

LastMantra · May 2022

I've only noticed it on "normal" steel string acoustics fairly recently tbh. I think it can look quite good (like @Basher 's).

PhilKing · May 2022

The only ones I find a PITA are the Rickenbacker 'blind' slots on the 12 strings. I have several guitars with regular slotted headstocks and have no issues with them.

BillDL · May 2022

With a slotted headstock, and this includes nylon strung guitars, it is important which side of the hole in the barrel you make the winds go so that the strings don't scrape against the inside of the headstock slots at the nut end of the slots. Generally you want to try and get the straightest string line from nut slot to tuner post on a guitar, but on a slotted headstock you have to figure out how to get enough winds onto the barrel while still making the string miss the edges of the slots at the nut end. Most often the A, D, G and B strings have to be wound going inwards towards the centre of the heastock, and the outside E ones wound towards the outside edges, but this is far from being a rule as every guitar is different. To achieve this in some cases you need to try and keep the string takeoff point on the tuner barrel close to the middle of the barrel but a bit to the left or to the right of the hole when it reaches your preferred tuning pitch. In this case you can do a wind or two to one side of the hole and then cross over the hole (as you can do on a classical to help lock the string) for another one or two winds on the other side of it. It can take a few string changes before you find the best method for a particular guitar. On some guitars you have to have the string takeoff point from the tuner barrel almost completely to the inside or outside of the headstock slots for the strings to miss the edges of the slots on the entry point down to the posts, and you can end up having to do more winds than you would have preferred to achieve this alignment. When restringing it helps to manually align the string over the barrel before putting the end of the astring through the hole and look for where you would like it to be coming off the barrel. Pi x D is then helpful to work out how much string slack you need (one wind is very approximately 3 times the diameter of the barrel).

bertie · May 2022

something I just noticed/remembered - Ive two holes on each barrel/roller

seems all the Grover ones do too................................

assume that you use the hole closest to the tuner first then back through the hole nearest the centre "block" as you wind on string, the coils move towards the centre, over the "spare bit" thus "locking" the string onto the barrel/roller

Kilgore · May 2022

I love the vibe of small 12 fret slotted headstock guitars. Changing strings is a bit of a faff but it's not something you do every day.

Stuckfast · May 2022

Wait. You're supposed to change strings?

camf · May 2022

^^^ Haha!

DavidR · June 2022

Anything you do to a guitar will change how it sounds, but some things not very much. I suspect that slotted headstocks are one such thing.

On the restringing issue, a string winder is a must for slotted headstocks and makes it a lot easier. Those not brought up on classicals at the learning stage will find it different initially, but more difficult? No not really.

String Winder Black | Musicroom.com

The main difference is aesthetic IMO. You can make different shapes with slotted vs. non-slotted. Both look very nice sometimes and awful at others and that's subjective. Personally I've never really liked Seagull headstocks.

(Interesting info - the carving at the top of a luthier-made classical slotted headstock shows the individual luthier. They all have their own shape - bit like a mason's mark.)

drofluf · June 2022

Regarding string winders, I had my "Judas moment" and went electric, really makes changing strings a breeze on both flat and slot heads.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ernie-Ball-P04118-Power-Peg/dp/B0019H6750/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2AW2OAOALZ476&keywords=power%2Bpeg%2Bernie%2Bball&qid=1654067739&sprefix=power%2Bpeg%2B%2Caps%2C68&sr=8-1&th=1

guitarjack66 · June 2022

I have to admit that I think slotted headstocks look really nice and I associate them with expensive guitars. Probably because they seem to have once been widely used on classicals,possibly,maybe? The replacing strings quandary does fill me with dread(no pun intended.)

GTC · June 2022

I like the look of them and they aren't particularly more difficult to string. I tend to agree that they do look better on smaller guitars, but this isn't always the case.

The only downside as far as I can see is that there isn't enough room to put a custom headstock inlay on them. I've just commissioned a left-handed Brook Weaver (the inevitable result of travelling down there with a friend and playing Simon's). I sort of justified it by having a special inlay (a Jack job) on the headstock and around the 12th fret on the fretboard in memory of my late wife who died on Boxing Day. So, it will have a standard headstock despite a Weaver (sort of 00-sized) normally having a slotted headstock.

guitarjack66 · June 2022

GTC said:

I like the look of them and they aren't particularly more difficult to string. I tend to agree that they do look better on smaller guitars, but this isn't always the case.

The only downside as far as I can see is that there isn't enough room to put a custom headstock inlay on them. I've just commissioned a left-handed Brook Weaver (the inevitable result of travelling down there with a friend and playing Simon's). I sort of justified it by having a special inlay (a Jack job) on the headstock and around the 12th fret on the fretboard in memory of my late wife who died on Boxing Day. So, it will have a standard headstock despite a Weaver (sort of 00-sized) normally having a slotted headstock.

So sorry for your loss. I hope the guitar brings your comfort in your bad times and helps you remember the good times alongside her.

bertie · June 2022

guitarjack66 said:

GTC said:

I like the look of them and they aren't particularly more difficult to string. I tend to agree that they do look better on smaller guitars, but this isn't always the case.

The only downside as far as I can see is that there isn't enough room to put a custom headstock inlay on them. I've just commissioned a left-handed Brook Weaver (the inevitable result of travelling down there with a friend and playing Simon's). I sort of justified it by having a special inlay (a Jack job) on the headstock and around the 12th fret on the fretboard in memory of my late wife who died on Boxing Day. So, it will have a standard headstock despite a Weaver (sort of 00-sized) normally having a slotted headstock.

So sorry for your loss. I hope the guitar brings your comfort in your bad times and helps you remember the good times alongside her.

sound words

nowt more spiritual places than Easterbrook, tis hobbit land

GTC · June 2022

guitarjack66 said:
So sorry for your loss. I hope the guitar brings your comfort in your bad times and helps you remember the good times alongside her.

Thank you for your kind words. I actually miss the hard time (of short duration) she used to give me when she sensed I was about to raise the subject of a new guitar I was interested in. I really miss her, but I've so much to be thankful for - and life goes on.

Getting a bit off-topic here, but I've also commissioned a nylon-strung harp guitar (with 8 sub-basses and 8 super-trebles) from the excellent Glastonbury-based luthier Alan Miller. He recently made a beauty for the talented Jon Pickard.

bertie said:

nowt more spiritual places than Easterbrook, tis hobbit land

The Local Authority have recently resurfaced and tarmac'd the approach roads which takes some of the excitement, magic and, dare I say, sprituality out of the trip down. Still a lovely friendly place though with the same bumpy approach track.

DartmoorHedgehog · June 2022

FWIW I'm in the "no harder to restring" camp. Do the people who reckon it's difficult to string a slotted headstock usually wrap the string round the post on a normal tuner, rather than sticking the end through and winding it on with the tuner? Otherwise I don't see why it's any different.

bertie · June 2022

DartmoorHedgehog said:

FWIW I'm in the "no harder to restring" camp. Do the people who reckon it's difficult to string a slotted headstock usually wrap the string round the post on a normal tuner, rather than sticking the end through and winding it on with the tuner? Otherwise I don't see why it's any different.

for me its the anchoring of the string, especially on the E and B - on a normal peg you can anchor "the reverse wind and kink" then take up the slack by hand before using the "tuner" to tighten to pitch - but you cant do that on a slotted - however now Ive discovered "two holes" on my slotted tuners, it should be easier next time

DartmoorHedgehog · June 2022

bertie said:

DartmoorHedgehog said:

FWIW I'm in the "no harder to restring" camp. Do the people who reckon it's difficult to string a slotted headstock usually wrap the string round the post on a normal tuner, rather than sticking the end through and winding it on with the tuner? Otherwise I don't see why it's any different.

for me its the anchoring of the string, especially on the E and B - on a normal peg you can anchor "the reverse wind and kink" then take up the slack by hand before using the "tuner" to tighten to pitch - but you cant do that on a slotted - however now Ive discovered "two holes" on my slotted tuners, it should be easier next time

Ah, fair enough - that would make it more difficult. I always just stick the string through, pull back enough slack for a couple of winds, then just wind it on with the machine head while tensioning it with the other hand - one over the string end, then under. So it makes no difference to me. Only time I ever do a fancy locking thing is with rubber u-bass strings (and even then they have a habit of snaking back through, the slippery bastards)

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