Acoustic Shape/Wood Combo Recomendations

dean111music · December 2019

I’m interested to know what body size and wood combo you would think would suit my needs to all experienced acoustic buyers out there

I currently have a Maton 808 artist that i have had for about 10 years. I find it quite hard to hold as its so deep, I also recently got RSI in both arms. The guitar is very stiff sounding unplugged and not very exciting. Plugged in it sounds amazing.

I’m after a much more resonant guitar that can be used for solo acoustic with percussion (Mike Dawes, Thomas Leeb, Eric Roche style) and also to work in duo singer songwriter like Angus and Juliet and John Smith.

What body shape would you lean towards me looking at?

Wood combos i’m keen to find out what you think Sitka or Cedar with a Walnut or Rosewood back and sides?

In terms of builders, I'm looking at Lowden, Atkin and Fylde Guitars

Thanks

ToneControl · December 2019

I'd add Avalon to the list. They made all the Lowdens for 15 years until 2004, and the same luthiers at the same workshop will make custom guitars much cheaper than Lowden now charge.

Typical woods:
Rosewood/Spruce is the most common favourite
You need to try a few combinations before eliminating that, it suits almost everyone
I like cedar more than spruce

Size: Auditorium or small, get a cutaway if you like. I get wider nuts, 46mm rather than 44mm, find out what you prefer.

If you call Avalon directly, they can explain the options

CarpeDiem · December 2019

I have an acoustic-playing friend who has a shoulder injury which has resulted in him moving to auditorium-size guitars. He likes Fylde, and I've been impressed with every one that I've played. I've tried a couple of Lowden's too, which were also fine guitars.
I agree with @ToneControl regarding contacting Avalon, and I would also contact other luthier's directly, including Turnstone. It's worth discussing your particular needs, and trying some guitars out before firming up your requirements. If you're playing in a duo, you may also need to consider pick-up options.

Andy79 · December 2019

What’s the Matons dimensions?

dean111music · December 2019

Andy79 said:

What’s the Matons dimensions?

Maton 808

BODY LENGTH

479 mm

BODY WIDTH

366 mm

BODY DEPTH

125 mm

TOTAL LENGTH

1009 mm

Neck

12” radius

Nut Width 44.1mm

14th Fret 55mm

dean111music · December 2019

ToneControl said:

I'd add Avalon to the list. They made all the Lowdens for 15 years until 2004, and the same luthiers at the same workshop will make custom guitars much cheaper than Lowden now charge.

Typical woods:
Rosewood/Spruce is the most common favourite
You need to try a few combinations before eliminating that, it suits almost everyone
I like cedar more than spruce

Size: Auditorium or small, get a cutaway if you like. I get wider nuts, 46mm rather than 44mm, find out what you prefer.

If you call Avalon directly, they can explain the options

Thanks so much! I have contacted Avalon so will wait to hear what they say.

dean111music · December 2019

CarpeDiem said:

I have an acoustic-playing friend who has a shoulder injury which has resulted in him moving to auditorium-size guitars. He likes Fylde, and I've been impressed with every one that I've played. I've tried a couple of Lowden's too, which were also fine guitars.
I agree with @ToneControl regarding contacting Avalon, and I would also contact other luthier's directly, including Turnstone. It's worth discussing your particular needs, and trying some guitars out before firming up your requirements. If you're playing in a duo, you may also need to consider pick-up options.

Lots of options. Fylde have been very quick at responding and very informative. I have never played one but like the sound.

Lowden I’m more familiar with. I definitely lean to a different acoustic sound (British) than American.

here are the maton stats again

Maton 808

BODY LENGTH

479 mm

BODY WIDTH

366 mm

BODY DEPTH

125 mm

TOTAL LENGTH

1009 mm

Neck

12” radius

Nut Width 44.1mm

14th Fret 55mm

Andy79 · December 2019

So your Maton is as deep as a dread and the size of a small OM, lower bout of a 00 sort of thing.

For the the sake of trying things out I would go try a Martin 0-18. They are a great benchmark. Lacking in bass obviously but they are so well balanced across bass mid and treble and they are loud.

if if I was custom building I would go Red spruce and Walnut with mahogany neck
For me Cedar just isn’t responsive or loud enough on small guitars.

Again, all just my opinion and completely subjective

dean111music · December 2019

Andy79 said:

So your Maton is as deep as a dread and the size of a small OM, lower bout of a 00 sort of thing.

For the the sake of trying things out I would go try a Martin 0-18. They are a great benchmark. Lacking in bass obviously but they are so well balanced across bass mid and treble and they are loud.

if if I was custom building I would go Red spruce and Walnut with mahogany neck
For me Cedar just isn’t responsive or loud enough on small guitars.

Again, all just my opinion and completely subjective

One of these? https://youtu.be/9UJBmnP66RI

Andy79 · December 2019

That’s the one

artiebear · December 2019

Lowden's F series would work well for you particularly the F32C ( spruce / Indian rosewood ) Spruce has a bit more inherent stiffness, useful if you are into percussive styles.
Regarding Fylde, they make some great guitars in many sizes and wood combos. Fyldes do have their own distinct sonic identity and are very much a European sound. I'm actually playing one right now as I was reading this. This one is a Custom Anniversary ( based on the Alexander model )in euro spruce and brazilian rosewood, before it I had a 30th anniversary in Sitka spruce/Indian rosewood. They share the same very open, harmonically rich traits, the current one being more full across the range. I've played many Fyldes and across the models they share great build quality and a certain sonic relationship.
I don't know where you are based but you should also talk to Haydn Williams ( HJ Williams guitars ). He's not far up the road from Fylde and builds some of the best bespoke acoustics around, plus he knows a lot about wood choices. I had an auditorium size guitar by Haydn which would have suited your type of styles very well (sadly it got nicked, though it did reappear 9 years later) can't remember what the model name was now. I currently have a lovely dread depth cutaway by him ( An Esk ) with a German top over Honduran rosewood, it is ridiculously responsive and a lot of overtones. The latter would be too big for you but check out his site for the smaller models or give him a call, he's a great guy to deal with.

Hope this helps
All the best with the search

dean111music · December 2019

artiebear said:

Lowden's F series would work well for you particularly the F32C ( spruce / Indian rosewood ) Spruce has a bit more inherent stiffness, useful if you are into percussive styles.
Regarding Fylde, they make some great guitars in many sizes and wood combos. Fyldes do have their own distinct sonic identity and are very much a European sound. I'm actually playing one right now as I was reading this. This one is a Custom Anniversary ( based on the Alexander model )in euro spruce and brazilian rosewood, before it I had a 30th anniversary in Sitka spruce/Indian rosewood. They share the same very open, harmonically rich traits, the current one being more full across the range. I've played many Fyldes and across the models they share great build quality and a certain sonic relationship.
I don't know where you are based but you should also talk to Haydn Williams ( HJ Williams guitars ). He's not far up the road from Fylde and builds some of the best bespoke acoustics around, plus he knows a lot about wood choices. I had an auditorium size guitar by Haydn which would have suited your type of styles very well (sadly it got nicked, though it did reappear 9 years later) can't remember what the model name was now. I currently have a lovely dread depth cutaway by him ( An Esk ) with a German top over Honduran rosewood, it is ridiculously responsive and a lot of overtones. The latter would be too big for you but check out his site for the smaller models or give him a call, he's a great guy to deal with.

Hope this helps
All the best with the search

Wow you have some great guitars! Fylde Alexander with Brazillain Rosewood and euro spruce is the dream. How did the spruce/indian rosewood compare?

Do you feel the Alexander would suit my needs?

Where are your based? I'm in the south near Brighton. There aren't many Fyldes to try around

artiebear · December 2019

dean111music said:

artiebear said:

Lowden's F series would work well for you particularly the F32C ( spruce / Indian rosewood ) Spruce has a bit more inherent stiffness, useful if you are into percussive styles.
Regarding Fylde, they make some great guitars in many sizes and wood combos. Fyldes do have their own distinct sonic identity and are very much a European sound. I'm actually playing one right now as I was reading this. This one is a Custom Anniversary ( based on the Alexander model )in euro spruce and brazilian rosewood, before it I had a 30th anniversary in Sitka spruce/Indian rosewood. They share the same very open, harmonically rich traits, the current one being more full across the range. I've played many Fyldes and across the models they share great build quality and a certain sonic relationship.
I don't know where you are based but you should also talk to Haydn Williams ( HJ Williams guitars ). He's not far up the road from Fylde and builds some of the best bespoke acoustics around, plus he knows a lot about wood choices. I had an auditorium size guitar by Haydn which would have suited your type of styles very well (sadly it got nicked, though it did reappear 9 years later) can't remember what the model name was now. I currently have a lovely dread depth cutaway by him ( An Esk ) with a German top over Honduran rosewood, it is ridiculously responsive and a lot of overtones. The latter would be too big for you but check out his site for the smaller models or give him a call, he's a great guy to deal with.

Hope this helps
All the best with the search

Wow you have some great guitars! Fylde Alexander with Brazillain Rosewood and euro spruce is the dream. How did the spruce/indian rosewood compare?

Do you feel the Alexander would suit my needs?

Where are your based? I'm in the south near Brighton. There aren't many Fyldes to try around

The Indian rosewood / Sitka guitar was very rich and expressive but maybe a little less defined when compared to the brasilian version.

The Alexander is a great body size being more compact than an OM, while being 4 1/4 " deep, enough to have plenty of bass without being full dreadnought depth. There are a couple of things worth considering, the basic model is cedar over sapele which will sound warm but a little drier/more immediate than spruce over rosewood and will have less headroom. It would be worth enquiring what the options are as Fylde are great at custom builds based on existing designs. Also check out the Alchemist which is essentially a cutaway version.
The closest production Fylde to a spruce / rosewood version is the Eric Bibb signature model ( he had one of the other 6 original anniversary models that I had previously . The big issue there is that it's quite a price hike as it has a bit more bling as well as the spruce /rosewood spec. The Bibb is also 25 1/2 scale length while the Alexander and the Alchemist are 24 3/4 scale length. Personally I really like the latter on this particular guitar, it down tunes great, but plays really easily.

artiebear · December 2019

A few quick shots of my Fylde Custom Anniversary

Euro spruce top
Brazilian rosewood back and sides
Ebony Board / Pearl inlay
Koa binding
5 piece neck figured mahogany and can't remember the other wood.
Multi coloured herringbone
24 3/4 scale length
44mm nut

<a href="https://imgur.com/qiI9U32"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/qiI9U32.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/wAe9WTE"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/wAe9WTE.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/UotQ2OP"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/UotQ2OP.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

<a href="https://imgur.com/3jgH8tQ"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/3jgH8tQ.jpg" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

Kittyfrisk · December 2019

^ That is a thing of loveliness. If ever a guitar deserved to be played back to front just for the visual beauty of the wood, that's it

ToneControl · December 2019

dean111music said:

artiebear said:

Lowden's F series would work well for you particularly the F32C ( spruce / Indian rosewood ) Spruce has a bit more inherent stiffness, useful if you are into percussive styles.
Regarding Fylde, they make some great guitars in many sizes and wood combos. Fyldes do have their own distinct sonic identity and are very much a European sound. I'm actually playing one right now as I was reading this. This one is a Custom Anniversary ( based on the Alexander model )in euro spruce and brazilian rosewood, before it I had a 30th anniversary in Sitka spruce/Indian rosewood. They share the same very open, harmonically rich traits, the current one being more full across the range. I've played many Fyldes and across the models they share great build quality and a certain sonic relationship.
I don't know where you are based but you should also talk to Haydn Williams ( HJ Williams guitars ). He's not far up the road from Fylde and builds some of the best bespoke acoustics around, plus he knows a lot about wood choices. I had an auditorium size guitar by Haydn which would have suited your type of styles very well (sadly it got nicked, though it did reappear 9 years later) can't remember what the model name was now. I currently have a lovely dread depth cutaway by him ( An Esk ) with a German top over Honduran rosewood, it is ridiculously responsive and a lot of overtones. The latter would be too big for you but check out his site for the smaller models or give him a call, he's a great guy to deal with.

Hope this helps
All the best with the search

Wow you have some great guitars! Fylde Alexander with Brazillain Rosewood and euro spruce is the dream. How did the spruce/indian rosewood compare?

Do you feel the Alexander would suit my needs?

Where are your based? I'm in the south near Brighton. There aren't many Fyldes to try around

firstly - if near Brighton, make sure you have tried the guitars in the Acoustic music co shop

secondly, Braz is great, but there are other impressive woods up there for far less money: African Blackwood, Ziricote, Bog oak, etc

ToneControl · December 2019

Andy79 said:

So your Maton is as deep as a dread and the size of a small OM, lower bout of a 00 sort of thing.

For the the sake of trying things out I would go try a Martin 0-18. They are a great benchmark. Lacking in bass obviously but they are so well balanced across bass mid and treble and they are loud.

if if I was custom building I would go Red spruce and Walnut with mahogany neck
For me Cedar just isn’t responsive or loud enough on small guitars.

Again, all just my opinion and completely subjective

probably depends on the guitar, classicals are mostly small bodied cedar and can be very loud
Redwood is supposed to be cedar on steroids, and my small-bodied redwood + Ziricote was the loudest acoustic I own last time I checked, alongside a Braz/Adirondack Dread!

Bear in mind you can get louder sounds with a plectrum, but that cedar is as loud when fingerpicking

dean111music · December 2019

I have read also that redwood tonally sits between cedar and spruce so this seems like the perfect top for me

then a rosewood or walnut for the back.

ToneControl · December 2019

dean111music said:

I have read also that redwood tonally sits between cedar and spruce so this seems like the perfect top for me

then a rosewood or walnut for the back.

hmm, I have 2 redwood tops, I'd say cedar was between redwood and spruce, where did you read that it was the other way round?
Some quotes I found said that redwood was "cedar on steroids", which i can understand: it's warmer, more mids, louder

Both the redwood guitars have very powerful mids, more so than any of my other guitars:
I use Elixir phosphor bronze nanoweb strings, and often leave the strings on for a few months, with no huge detriment to my ears
With the redwood tops, the top end is overwhelmed by the mids after 3-4 weeks, I'm currently trying 80/20 bronze on one of them.

Having said this, both my redwood tops have ziricote back and sides, not rosewood.

I had a walnut / adirondack Bourgeois DS-260 once, it was much too bright for me, who is recommending walnut?

At present, the best idea I can think of is that you try lots of similar instruments made with different woods. AFAIK in the UK that's easiest at one of the Lowden stockists, they have 50-60 guitars in a wide range of woods.

btw I read a recent interview with George Lowden, who said his favourite woods a guitar for himself now are African blackwood with redwood. African blackwood is supposed to be the nearest current wood to BRW.

Avalon recommend Ziricote and Bog Oak as the "best sounding" B+S woods.

Andy79 · December 2019

Don’t dismiss torrified tops. I know that long term we don’t know how it will pan out as it’s kinda new for soundboards but all the torrified guitars I have tried (apart from Ibanez, mainly I think, due to being way over built) have been noticeably improved by the process.

dean111music · December 2019

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

I have read also that redwood tonally sits between cedar and spruce so this seems like the perfect top for me

then a rosewood or walnut for the back.

hmm, I have 2 redwood tops, I'd say cedar was between redwood and spruce, where did you read that it was the other way round?
Some quotes I found said that redwood was "cedar on steroids", which i can understand: it's warmer, more mids, louder

Both the redwood guitars have very powerful mids, more so than any of my other guitars:
I use Elixir phosphor bronze nanoweb strings, and often leave the strings on for a few months, with no huge detriment to my ears
With the redwood tops, the top end is overwhelmed by the mids after 3-4 weeks, I'm currently trying 80/20 bronze on one of them.

Having said this, both my redwood tops have ziricote back and sides, not rosewood.

I had a walnut / adirondack Bourgeois DS-260 once, it was much too bright for me, who is recommending walnut?

At present, the best idea I can think of is that you try lots of similar instruments made with different woods. AFAIK in the UK that's easiest at one of the Lowden stockists, they have 50-60 guitars in a wide range of woods.

btw I read a recent interview with George Lowden, who said his favourite woods a guitar for himself now are African blackwood with redwood. African blackwood is supposed to be the nearest current wood to BRW.

Avalon recommend Ziricote and Bog Oak as the "best sounding" B+S woods.

A couple of guitar shops have said redwood is in the middle and would suit solo playing and working with singers. These where with Lowden Guitars in mind. So redwood with rosewood,

also cedar and walnut for clarity and warmth is another good choice?

I have liked the sound of lowden bog oak with lutz spruce

dean111music · December 2019

Quote from an email

Yes Cedar is a very soft, warm wood, you could perceive it as being quieter, whereas Spruce is brash, bold very loud. Redwood to me is a healthy balance of both, its sits between cedar and spruce tonally and for that reason is popular on the higher end models as it only available in the 35 and 50 series.

You can see why an instrumental soloist would prefer spruce as it gives them lots of projection and separation but like a said this might be abit too much when accompanying a singer.

dean111music · December 2019

So would cedar/ rosewood be a bigger bolder sound than cedar/ walnut?

Cedar rosewood in the middle ground?

as I say lutz spruce and bog oak is great sound

https://youtu.be/PJDiXsBR9_I

dean111music · December 2019

This is the nicest sounding vid!

Best tone.

Although it’s breaking up
https://youtu.be/ykVXuLSubQQ

dean111music · December 2019

https://youtu.be/ViHQw_8KZDQ

best of all worlds ?

cedar/rosewood

GTC · December 2019

dean111music said:

I have read also that redwood tonally sits between cedar and spruce so this seems like the perfect top for me

then a rosewood or walnut for the back.

I would agree with the comment that cedar for a top sits between redwood and spruce. I've a couple of cedar topped guitars and one redwood and the redwood (with bog oak back and sides) has a much smoother velvety tone. Redwood takes more playing than spruce or cedar to open up

Kalimna · December 2019

That brazillian is a stunning looking guitar. Not often you see ripple figure in either rosewoods or mahogany - but that has both. Subtle, and classy.

Adam

artiebear · December 2019

@dean111music has opened up really good discussion, with some excellent comments and opinions from all. These debates go on ad infinitum across acoustic discussion boards as well as between players and builders with regard to wood combos. The great thing is that there are as many opinions are there are individual guitars based wood choice, our ear, our style, but very fundamentally the builders philosophy and knowledge ( eg George Lowden made his name on Cedar topped guitars, prefers redwood and cedar, but builds and designs stellar Spruce guitars, while Stefan Sobell, a man a the high end of the sole luthier game will build with Cedar, but his signature is stellar Adirondack, European and Sitka topped guitars. They are both superb builders with radically different approaches, and paradoxically they are both right

).
As soon as we get to a stage where we think we have categorised such things, a guitar will come along to prove that there are no rules just guidelines. The only Lowden I have now is a 20 year old O32, which has been toured and played on and off throughout that time. I got the itch for both cedar and redwood Lowden since that time, and ended up buying a selling some lovely guitars, simply because I found that a played in run of the mill sitka top guitar that had been well played has more dynamics, harmonic content and smoothness. Maybe that's getting into a whole different area, but if it's a guitar you intend to grow with, keep how it will develop as part of the equation.

I think as @ToneControl says it's critical get get hands on with as many guitars as possible, ideally in a place where you can feel comfortable even to make notes of your reactions as you pick up each one, it gives you something to objectively refer back to.

ToneControl · December 2019

dean111music said:

Quote from an email

Yes Cedar is a very soft, warm wood, you could perceive it as being quieter, whereas Spruce is brash, bold very loud. Redwood to me is a healthy balance of both, its sits between cedar and spruce tonally and for that reason is popular on the higher end models as it only available in the 35 and 50 series.

You can see why an instrumental soloist would prefer spruce as it gives them lots of projection and separation but like a said this might be abit too much when accompanying a singer.

I have guitars with spruce, cedar and redwood, I'm not sure why anyone would consider redwood as between the other 2, unless the redwood they were using were unusual. On my guitars, spruce sounds scooped, redwood has the most mids

btw, I've heard that redwood is more variable in acoustic responses, so needs more checking before using a piece in a guitar.
When the candidate pieces were tap-tested in front of me, there were huge differences amongst the sinker redwood pieces

btw All of this will also be affected by whether you play with plectrums, picks, skin or nails

ToneControl · December 2019

dean111music said:

This is the nicest sounding vid!

Best tone.

Although it’s breaking up
https://youtu.be/ykVXuLSubQQ

do you play with a pick?
I'd advise avoiding adirondack if you play with nails, it needs hitting hard to move the wood

ToneControl · December 2019

dean111music said:

https://youtu.be/ViHQw_8KZDQ

best of all worlds ?

cedar/rosewood

I would not recommend redwood as the choice for the first and only top-end guitar for a player
but I would recommend cedar rosewood (unless the player was mostly a heavy-plectrum player)

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Acoustic Shape/Wood Combo Recomendations

In terms of builders, I'm looking at Lowden, Atkin and Fylde Guitars

Thanks

Comments