ii V I..something to try over the V chord

Barney · August 2013

maybe a lot of you guys already know this

ii V I in the key of G....Am7 D7 Gmaj7

over the 5 chord try Ebmaj7 arp ...it gives a nice outside sound...and its very usable cos most of us know it...:)

bigjon · August 2013

The Ebmaj7 arp superimposed on a D7 foundation makes the chord a D7b9#5sus4. I'm not convinced by the sus4 G note (the 3rd of Ebmaj7) myself - I think it would work better superimposing an Ebmmaj7 arp, eg x6433x, which would outline the F# of the D7 chord and make the overall chord D7b9#5

bigjon · August 2013

The problem with the G note is that it is very inside (it's the root note of the home key), so it gives the V chord a much smoother R'n'B feel with less tension-release from the V chord to the I chord.

Barney · August 2013

bigjon said:

The problem with the G note is that it is very inside (it's the root note of the home key), so it gives the V chord a much smoother R'n'B feel with less tension-release from the V chord to the I chord.

i think as with all things theory based it takes a bit of musical input from the player to make things work....i think the only way is to try it rather than saying it dosnt match up theory wise.....i think its a good way for anybody to get a outside sound with minimal effort most people will know the maj7 arp....

ddlooping · August 2013

Quite cool, Barney, thanks.

Try the following : fret [string] (6 = high E)
10 [6] - 12 [4] - 11 [5] - 13 [3] - 12 [4] - 10 [3] - 11 [4] - 12 [5]

bigjon · August 2013

Barney said:
i think as with all things theory based it takes a bit of musical input from the player to make things work....i think the only way is to try it rather than saying it dosnt match up theory wise.....i think its a good way for anybody to get a outside sound with minimal effort most people will know the maj7 arp....

Fair enough. In that spirit, try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------

----------------------16---13-----------------------

-----------------------------------16---15---13---

-------------------------------------------------------

Barney · August 2013

bigjon;12558" said:
Barney said:i think as with all things theory based it takes a bit of musical input from the player to make things work....i think the only way is to try it rather than saying it dosnt match up theory wise.....i think its a good way for anybody to get a outside sound with minimal effort most people will know the maj7 arp....

Fair enough. In that spirit, try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13---------------------------------------------------------16---13----------------------------------------------------------16---15---13------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah that will work fine...in fact try moving up in semitones from E minor penta for the full progresion starting with Am7 ..chord with the same fingering you have above.....in reality anything will work if its resolved ..although the theorist will have some sort of big fancy name for it ...my OP was just passing on something that I thought might be intresting for anybody just getting in to this kind of thing and easy to use ..the F blues scale could be awkward because of the F F# clash...

bigjon · August 2013

Barney said:
..the F blues scale could be awkward because of the F F# clash...

Aww, it's only an itty-bitty little #9, standard chromatic extension of a V7 chord. It's even there at the top of the Hendrix chord, so I think our ears are pretty used to it by now and don't perceive it as clashing all that much

bigjon · August 2013

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-

--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barney · August 2013

Most people starting this kind of thing will start on the root note mence the clash with the Maj 3rd ....try the Eb Maj7 arp from the Maj7... D note...it makes it more pleasing to the ear.

Barney · August 2013

bigjon;12586" said:
Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13--10-11-13--10-11-13-------------------------------------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13---11---10--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks ill try that

Barney · August 2013

Try this one ...
…………………………………………11…14……
…………………10…13…………………
.……………………………11…14…………
..10…13…………………………………
…………………………………………….
.…………………………………………………

Its a really simple one but effective...and can be moved in min 3rds..all over the neck

bigjon · August 2013

Barney said:

Try this one ...
…………………………………………11…14……
…………………10…13…………………
.……………………………11…14…………
..10…13…………………………………
…………………………………………….
.…………………………………………………

Its a really simple one but effective...and can be moved in min 3rds..all over the neck

Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

Clarky · August 2013

try Lydian Dominant over chord V

Barney · August 2013

This is going to end up to be one of them threads ...lol...yeah lydian dominant works great...the whole thing about my first post is something most people can relate to....actually anything will work as long as it resolves in a musical way....

Clarky · August 2013

ahh ok.. want me to post a lick as an example??

Barney · August 2013

Clarky;12775" said:
ahh ok.. want me to post a lick as an example??

yeah could do....its always better to hear how it works really...ill post some stuff later using pentatonics moving up in semitones ...

Clarky · August 2013

k.. I'll see what I can rustle up...

Barney · August 2013

Clarky said:

k.. I'll see what I can rustle up...

ok...cool ..this is from a while back when i was practicing the minor pentatonics over 2 5 1 in Cmaj....just really trying to get the sound of them in my head im using pentatonics moving up in semitones starting with A penta..

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=11890360

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

viz · August 2013

That's pretty beautiful barnster.

Barney · August 2013

thanks Viz..:)

bigjon · August 2013

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 -

bigjon said:
try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------
----------------------16---13-----------------------
-----------------------------------16---15---13---
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 -

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-
-10-11-13-
-10-11-13-
--------------
--------------
--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 -

bigjon said:
Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

Barney · August 2013

bigjon said:

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 -

bigjon said:

try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------

----------------------16---13-----------------------

-----------------------------------16---15---13---

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 -

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

-10-11-13-

--------------

--------------

--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 -

bigjon said:

Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

very cool....thanks ...ill try some of them...ill get the guitar out later and do some 2 5 1 using the Ebma7 arp...on th V chord....:)

Barney · August 2013

ok just recorded a little bit using the Ebmaj on the V chord...first time just as the arp and another 2 messing a little bit with it...i tried to really exagerate the V ap

http://soundcloud.com/user5011288/2-2051-20example

sorry about the really crap backer just done it really quick..:)

bigjon · August 2013

bigjon said:
Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

As a bonus I stuck another pattern I use all the time over the V chord at 0:34.

The pattern is -

---10---11---13---14--

---10---11---12--------

----------------------------

It's sort-of half-whole dimished with a b6 passing note borrowed from the superlocrian, but I just use it as a fretboard pattern that works. The lick I was playing at 0:34 goes something like

---10---11---13---14---13---11---10----------------10-----------------------

-------------------------------------------------11---12---------12---11---10---

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clarky · August 2013

play this over V with a bit of a swing.. 12/8 stylie

Note: beat 1 of the bar is the 2nd note [so the first note is a little anacrusis]

------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------5--------5---6---7---

4---5-------5------------4---5---7-------7------------------

---------7-------6---7-----------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Barney · August 2013

Clarky said:

play this over V with a bit of a swing.. 12/8 stylie

Note: beat 1 of the bar is the 2nd note [so the first note is a little anacrusis]

------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------5--------5---6---7---
4---5-------5------------4---5---7-------7------------------
---------7-------6---7-----------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------

thanks...:)

Clarky · August 2013

how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in

Barney · August 2013

Clarky;18491" said:
how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in

Not really sure what you mean but I'm all for experimenting...

Clarky · August 2013

it's actually a really crap joke about jazz...

but funnily enough.. occasionally it actually sounds quite cool.. lol..

Clarky · August 2013

Clarky said:

how about playing the opening bar to Yankee Doodle Dandy in any key except for the key that chord V is actually in

jeez Clarky you can be such a nob at times...

sheesh..

gonna face palm myself..

EDIT: and just realised that I can't.... lmao...

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ii V I..something to try over the V chord

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