Laminated back and sides

Fuengi · December 2016

I've just picked up a Sigma DR28 which is listed as solid Spruce top with Rosewood back and sides.I can see by the grain that the b&s are not solid, but interested in how this is done if anyone knows?
Is it several different strips of timber / ply (like an engineered wood) or do they ever use a photo for the external finish (like laminate flooring)?
I'm an architect, and I know from product research that engineered flooring is far more stable and less probe to movement than solid timber, I assume that is why, along with cost, it is such a good construction method for the back and sides?

ICBM · December 2016

It will be real wood, usually three layers. The only ones I know of that aren't are Martin's 'HPL' models which are essentially a high-quality version of Formica (and actually sound very good).

On decent quality laminates the outer veneer will be bookmatched. Even at that, it reduces cost and makes for a simpler, stronger construction. How much it affects the sound compared to solid wood is debatable, but it does to some extent.

For some purposes it's arguably better - eg a stage electro-acoustic where you want to play at higher volume without feedback, since it's less resonant than solid wood.

Fuengi · December 2016

It's bookmatched on the Sigma DR28. I'm super impressed with the whole build quality, especially considering the list price, and started wondering what the cost of components could be, hence the question if it was real. I guess they would be stretching it by saying it was Rosewood then using a photo!

ICBM · December 2016

Fuengi said:

It's bookmatched on the Sigma DR28. I'm super impressed with the whole build quality, especially considering the list price, and started wondering what the cost of components could be, hence the question if it was real. I guess they would be stretching it by saying it was Rosewood then using a photo!

I don't know - Martin describe it as "mahogany high pressure laminate", when it does not contain real wood… other than in the sense that paper is made from wood! The surface layer is essentially resin-impregnated printed paper.

I've often been surprised that a really well-done laminate should be cheaper to make than a solid back too, but it does seem to be.

The catch is that these days, they carefully lie by omission in the spec - I know you weren't fooled, but a lot of people are. If they say "solid spruce top" and only "rosewood" or "mahogany" back and sides, you know it's laminate.

AliGorie · December 2016

yeah, got a couple of Lam b/s guits, if done 'for the right reasons and the right way the process can be highly successful.
As said above, one of my guitars I play purely (Alvarez-Yairi) acoustically and u couldn't tell it was laminate by the excelent tone. The other is for playing lugged in and the rigidity of b&s helps stave off feedback at higher sound levels.
Do note that some custom builders use the 'double sides' technique to stiffen the 'frame' that supports the s/board - keeping the vibration energy in the s/b.
If it sounds good to u - get it 'n play it.

TheOtherDennis · December 2016

AliGorie said:

If it sounds good to u - get it 'n play it.

This. I traded in a Takemine EGSomethingorother when I bought my Avalon. It had a solid spruce top and laminated back and sides, but it sounded immense. I love my Avalon (solid all over), and I know that there aren't many fans of Takemine on here, but I've always regretted parting with mine.

olafgarten · December 2016

I've found all solid guitars are more resonant than ones with Laminate Back and Sides but that doesn't necessarily result in a better tone.

Resonance is just one quality of tone.

On the other hand I've never played an all laminate guitar that I've liked. I think a solid top is quite important.

Fuengi · December 2016

I found an all laminate1970s Kiso Suzuki on Gumtree for £10. Sounded ok but went to mush when you pushed it hard.

Solid top makes a huge difference IMO, but back and sides I dont know so much.

ICBM · December 2016

I like my singer's all-ply Eko Ranger, but I admit that's more for it's 'old' vibe than really for its acoustic tone. It does sound good in its own way (they don't all) but it's nothing like a good solid-top guitar.

thomasross20 · December 2016

Martin HPL is pretty good IMO

ICBM · December 2016

thomasross20 said:

Martin HPL is pretty good IMO

It is! It's remarkable how wood-like it sounds, given how it's made.

I had one of the Martin HPL dreadnoughts for a while - the only reason I sold it is because I got my Gibson. It didn't sound *exactly* like a D-28, but it was remarkably close given the difference in materials - not forgetting that the neck was laminated 'Stratabond' as well.

thomasross20 · December 2016

crunchman · January 2017

I've got a Martin with the HPL back and sides and Stratobond neck. It's actually a really good sounding guitar. The fact that the top is not covered in a thick finish probably helps a lot.

It isn't as good as my HD28V but it was better sounding than guitars in the same shop that cost twice as much when I bought it.

ICBM · January 2017

crunchman said:

I've got a Martin with the HPL back and sides and Stratobond neck. It's actually a really good sounding guitar. The fact that the top is not covered in a thick finish probably helps a lot.

The only thing I don't like about that is that the tops mark really easily, especially the edges because they're not bound.

That may not matter to you, though - but it doesn't help the resale value if you come to move it on.

crunchman · January 2017

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

I've got a Martin with the HPL back and sides and Stratobond neck. It's actually a really good sounding guitar. The fact that the top is not covered in a thick finish probably helps a lot.

The only thing I don't like about that is that the tops mark really easily, especially the edges because they're not bound.

That may not matter to you, though - but it doesn't help the resale value if you come to move it on.

I've had it a couple of years now and not made any significant marks on it. The Mono gig bag I keep it in is a bit splattered though from carrying it on my bike. That's one of the reasons I bought that guitar so I can carry it on my bike which I wouldn't want to do with my expensive Martin.

Having said that, I find myself using that guitar sometimes even when I do have the car and the option of using the expensive one. If I'm playing live I'll often take whichever of my acoustics has the best strings on it, and I'll play the others at home for a bit longer to get more life out of the strings.

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