Intonation issue ~ string gauge related, or what else ¿?¿

ToneControl · November 2016

ICBM said:

ChrisMusic said:

Capo ~ wazzat ???

I thought that was what my index finger was for !

Of course you are right, another thing for my to buy list then, and probably will only be used for this one task.

So is there another simple (& quicker) solution to save buying one ?

A pencil and an elastic band .

You will need to double (or triple etc) the band to get enough tension, loop it round the pencil about halfway along, put the pencil across the neck with the end only just overhanging on the other side, and then hook the band on. A faff but it can be done. Worked for me at a gig when I forgot my capo!

It will cause much more serious tuning problems than a proper capo, but that isn't actually an issue for this purpose since you'll be retuning as precisely as possible anyway.

or get someone else to fret the first fret

ChrisMusic · November 2016

ICBM said:

ChrisMusic said:

Capo ~ wazzat ???

I thought that was what my index finger was for !

Of course you are right, another thing for my to buy list then, and probably will only be used for this one task.

So is there another simple (& quicker) solution to save buying one ?

A pencil and an elastic band .

You will need to double (or triple etc) the band to get enough tension, loop it round the pencil about halfway along, put the pencil across the neck with the end only just overhanging on the other side, and then hook the band on. A faff but it can be done. Worked for me at a gig when I forgot my capo!

It will cause much more serious tuning problems than a proper capo, but that isn't actually an issue for this purpose since you'll be retuning as precisely as possible anyway.

Simple brilliance @ICBM , and so obvious once you pointed it out. So, done with a permanent marker pen and a lot of elastic bands discarded by the local postman (why do they do that!).

Contrary to my old prejudices, I actually quite enjoyed playing using this makeshift contraption, so I may actually get a proper one eventually. The old ones used to be little more than this, a piece of elastic and a rubber covered metal "nail". And, yes, they did cause all sorts of tuning issues, awful things. It is different when you do it yourself though I guess.... anyway...

~ ~ ~
All the intonation issues remained.

Measurements are a little inconclusive, probably down to ruler operator error !

Against the theoretical fretting measurements, the nut to 12th are pretty much correct for each fret, the 12th fret is at the halfway point along the 1st string, suggesting that there is no compensation applied to the bridge on the 1st string. My measurements are not 100% conclusive on this, but with a foot rule calibrated in 10ths and dodgy eyesight (I really must get some new glasses) I think are pretty damn close.

The distance from the 12th to bridge along the bass string is 2mm longer, suggesting 2mm compensation built in.

The figures suggested by @AliGorie 's web link were 2mm75 for 1st up to 6mm6 for the 6th string, so this guitar could easily be out by around 2mm75 or so on the 1st string and 4mm6 out on the 6th, which is quite a bit. The current distance from bridge crown to string pin hole is only about 7mm. (I am not sure the 1st string is that far out though)

~ ~ ~
A good candidate for the compensated overhang bridge in @earwighoney 's web link.
Is there any tonal downside to using one with this severe an overhang ?

That's going to be some break angle though !
Will it cause other problems ?

~ ~ ~
Thanks also to @ToneControl , good suggestion, I really need to borrow, or even buy (!) a tuner with a cent readout.

On the subject of tuners, the piezo transducer is stuck on the underside of the top just behind the bridge, and out to a strap thingy jack. Is there any simple way of getting it to interface better with my ST200 ? I assume it is an impedance issue ?

I also still need to get my head around the compensated nut thing too.

So does all this make sense ? Anything I missed, or messed up. What is the best advise about what to do next ?
Oh, and thanks for all your help so far

Lewy · November 2016

Have you put fresh strings on this guitar yet?

ChrisMusic · November 2016

OK @Lewy , full disclosure, I cheated !

I've replaced the 6th string, as that is the worst culprit, and I have a spare knocking around. Slightly lighter gauge, so small but subtle change ~ intonation is still way out ~ so the maths is in the right ball-park IMO.

The intonation is especially interesting when you try the harmonic on the 7th, 12th and 19th frets, you get a real progression to an exotic microtonal scale !!!

So to my mind that's nailed the problem, it is just a matter of working out the best solution, and adjustment, from here.

I'm saving the whole set of new strings for a celebration of solving this dilemma.

Am I right to gather that strings are a whole new rabbit hole too

Lewy · November 2016

ChrisMusic said:

Am I right to gather that strings are a whole new rabbit hole too

Only if you want to go down it. You could just as easily put the appropriate gauge of D'Addario EJ's on and never think about it again. It sounds like the finer points of acoustic timbre aren't the closest crocodile to the canoe in the case of this guitar.

ChrisMusic · November 2016

Crocodiles ? Canoes ? :-O

When I signed up for this, nobody told me this journey was going to be a wildlife adventure, where something could have my leg off at a moments notice !

~ but if I incapacitate the nearest croc...
( movie running in my mind... ChrisMusic, the new Crocodile Dundee ! )
Then the next one waiting to take my leg off immediately after, is probably named "tonal grail quest" !

...at least as far as this guitar goes, and I think it has the potential to be a very nice guitar once this is sorted. I am still "getting my ears in" on this current acoustic journey, but it does have a lovely complex sound and sustain. Although it is a very early one, the maker is quite sought after and highly regarded, I just wish he would answer my eMails...

Having said that, it is a lovely challenge to solve this between us here IMO. I have learnt a lot so far, knowledge and understanding are always valuable, and sharing is what makes this place so great. It will all stand me in good stead for the next guitar(s) too... "the safari must go on"

Just as long as the crocodiles don't get an early dinner, and I have a leg (or two) to stand on !

ToneControl · November 2016

is the bridge saddle inserted the wrong way round?

Lewy · November 2016

ChrisMusic said:

Although it is a very early one, the maker is quite sought after and highly regarded, I just wish he would answer my eMails...

Is it a dreadnought by someone beginning with A by any chance?

Because if it is (an early build from a british luthier sold on here a while back) it means there are pictures and a video on this very board which would be useful to the folks trying to help you out.....

Lewy · November 2016

And if it IS that guitar I think I can see your problem....the saddle isn't the original (there's a gap in the slot at each end), and looks like it's got a forward lean on it (it's supposed to be perpendicular to the top) - probably because it's not well fitted to the slot.

Obviously if it's not that guitar, please ignore!

ChrisMusic · November 2016

Top marks for your sleuthing skills @Lewy , yes it is indeed.

I didn't want to name the maker publicly if there were any issues which would cast any shadow on his name, for obvious reasons, but your last post suggests that the intonation issue is a simple matter of someone else's inappropriate changes, which sits fine with me, and is easier to address.

As to photos, I didn't realise any were available. I couldn't access the goo.gl link. I don't know why I always get a blank page with no content ?

How did you access the video, I would love to take a look (maybe PM me?).

I have only just collected it, although the deal was done some time ago, a house move and transfer via a local family member kept the anticipation building. Nice easy transaction and lovely chap to deal with.

I thought that I saw a similar "forward leaning saddle on a Lowden, or am I mistaken, so I thought that it was correct, my bad. You are right about it being a later change, not only does it not fit right across, but the finish is non consistent with the guitar's build quality.

Why do you think someone would have done this ?

Lewy · November 2016

ChrisMusic said:

Top marks for your sleuthing skills @Lewy , yes it is indeed.

I didn't want to name the maker publicly if there were any issues which would cast any shadow on his name, for obvious reasons, but your last post suggests that the intonation issue is a simple matter of someone else's inappropriate changes, which sits fine with me, and is easier to address.

As to photos, I didn't realise any were available. I couldn't access the goo.gl link. I don't know why I always get a blank page with no content ?

How did you access the video, I would love to take a look (maybe PM me?).

I have only just collected it, although the deal was done some time ago, a house move and transfer via a local family member kept the anticipation building. Nice easy transaction and lovely chap to deal with.

I thought that I saw a similar "forward leaning saddle on a Lowden, or am I mistaken, so I thought that it was correct, my bad. You are right about it being a later change, not only does it not fit right across, but the finish is non consistent with the guitar's build quality.

Why do you think someone would have done this ?

I just accessed the pics following the link on the thread so if you can't see those then I don't have an alternative I'm afraid.

Who know why someone would have put this saddle in - they were obviously a bit clueless as having an ill-fitting saddle with a lean forwards is a good way to bust through the front edge of your bridge over time. Probably wanted to change the action in some way.

It's a decent guitar by the look of it. It deserves a new saddle and basic set up by a proper luthier/repairer really. Absolutely no disrespect intended here, but if you didn't spot the saddle issue you're not really the person for the job in terms of getting it playing and sounding its best....

ChrisMusic · November 2016

So earlier today, before the forward lean was identified, I did a little more "cheating", or lateral thinking as I prefer to call it. Using a bridge pin from my Blueridge wedged behind the saddle I created an alternative saddle crown, positioned further back than even correcting the lean would allow, on just the lowest two strings.

The upshot of this makeshift experiment is almost perfect intonation on the 5th, and only a bit sharp on the 6th. Due to the conical nature of the bridge pin used, the offset from the current forward leaning position is approx 3mm2 on the 5th string and approx 3mm7 on the 6th. The mathematical model I used suggests that it still need to move a further 0mm13 on the 5th and 0mm9 on the 6th, which feels about right to me.

Realigning the saddle to perpendicular would move the saddle crown by about 1mm or maybe a bit over, so still not perfect given the above calculations, but may be in the realm of an acceptable level of compromise for a straight bar saddle ?

Obviously, having gone this far, I am keen to make it play as well as possible, and fine tune both intonation and timbre, (which attributes appear to have the duality of being both rabbit hole and crocodile, who knew !?!

)

So as always, any further advise to make this the best guitar it can be would be gratefully appreciated

ChrisMusic · November 2016

Lewy said:

It's a decent guitar by the look of it. It deserves a new saddle and basic set up by a proper luthier/repairer really. Absolutely no disrespect intended here, but if you didn't spot the saddle issue you're not really the person for the job in terms of getting it playing and sounding its best....

Comment taken as you intended, you are right of course. However I have worked a fair bit on electric guitars in my "previous life*", but not on acoustics at all, or as you say I would have spotted this as something wrong at the outset.

I thought I had seen it on a Lowden, so my alarms didn't sound. I did raise it as a query in one of my earlier posts "and the perpendicular is angled towards the sound hole" just in case. Maybe I should get out of the habit of using ten words where only two will do (but where's the fun in that?) !

Everything I learnt back then*, be it about music, the music industry, or working on (electric) guitars themselves, was largely through trial and the occasional error, there was no tFB to turn to back then, nor anyone more knowledgable in my local area, so forgive my naive enthusiasm, but I am keen to keep learning, with a little help from my friends this time around

So, yes, I am keen to follow this through myself, with care...

ICBM · November 2016

Lowdens do have the saddles set at an angle, but the other way - 'leaning back' so the string force is more nearly parallel straight down through the saddle rather than trying to force it forwards.

If the saddle is tall enough that it's leaning forward it could also be causing the top to belly up and twist forwards more than it should, which may further shorten the string length - although again I would doubt it was enough to put the intonation out that much on its own.

It does sound like the bridge is in the wrong place now, anyway - whose fault that is is largely irrelevant, it just needs to be fixed. If you can get enough change of position using an overlap bridge I would do that, and if not then you've really got no choice but to fill the saddle slot and have it moved - from your measurements it sounds too far out for a wider saddle to do the job even with a compensated ridge.

In fact, a Lowden-style angled saddle slot would probably help a lot because it will reduce the forward bending force on the saddle too. You'll need quite a good luthier to do that successfully but I think it will be worth it.

AliGorie · November 2016

I need picies now guys - I'm lost, I know what Lowden split and 1 piece saddles are like and frankly I've NEVER seen forward (or backward) slopping saddle in a qualaty guitar - that is unless someone who didn't know what they were doing had replaced it.

ICBM · November 2016

It's quite hard to find a good pic online, but I think this just about shows it:

http://www.12fret.com/wp-content/gallery/lowden-o-35-cx-2006-ss/lowden-O-35-cx-2006-ss-bridge-1.jpg

Notice that the saddles are leaning back away from the camera so the break angle is roughly equal on either side, so the force from the strings is transmitted down the saddle rather than trying to bend it over forwards.

Both Lowden and Takamine use the twin-saddle approach but it isn't strictly necessary. You can see that the offset between the two is no greater than the front-to-back width of a single saddle cut as shown earlier, the back edge of the EADG saddle is parallel with the front edge of the BE one so the offset of the two centre lines is the same as the thickness of one saddle.

AliGorie · November 2016

ICBM said:

It's quite hard to find a good pic online, but I think this just about shows it:

Both Lowden and Takamine use the twin-saddle approach but it isn't strictly necessary. You can see that the offset between the two is no greater than the front-to-back width of a single saddle cut as shown earlier, the back edge of the EADG saddle is parallel with the front edge of the BE one so the offset of the two centre lines is the same as the thickness of one saddle.

like this ?

Image: http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii166/uilleann49/LowdenSoundhole.jpg

ICBM · November 2016

It's hard to clearly see, but yes I think so. It looks like the B saddle top is at the back edge and the G at the front, although it looks like it might be individually 'stepped' rather than two straight lines.

That must be quite an old Lowden if it doesn't have the two-piece saddle.

AliGorie · November 2016

ICBM, interestingly GL had designed the split saddle into his work from day one (see pic below).
Though he did offer a one piece saddle on request - as the EMG US pickup was considered to be the best back then ('80's) OH, note the serial No. in that picture.
here is a picture of Lowden No. 1.
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii166/uilleann49/P1000291.jpg

Image: http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii166/uilleann49/P1000291.jpg

and the '88 - #717,

Image: http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii166/uilleann49/DSCN1019.jpg

sorry to go off topic.

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Intonation issue ~ string gauge related, or what else ¿?¿

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