WTD SM57 Mic

spark240 · January 2014

I need a mic for recording acoustic guitar, I reckon a 57 should do it, anyone got a spare one?

ecc83 · January 2014

What sort of audio interface or other recording gear do you have?

I ask because the 57 has a very low output and you need a pretty good, high gain, low noise preamp for gentle sources like acoustic guitar. In any event a dynamic mic is really not at all ideal* for the instrument. There is a lot of "sparkle that you will miss with the limited HF response of the 57/58 which is in any case optimized for voice really.

I suggest a small D capacitor mic such as the AKG Perception 170 which at £70ish is somewhat cheaper than a 57. Even the Behringer C2 pair at 40quid gets some good reccies'.

*That said, my son prefers the sound of the 57 for his acoustic guitar but that is going thru' an Allen & Heath ZED10 mixer or the VERY low noise NI KA6!

Dave.

spark240 · January 2014

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the advice, I am using a Presonus Studio Live 16.4.2.

I have an SE electronics Large Diaphram mic , but I am looking for something as an additional mic .

octatonic · January 2014

SM57 is ok for snare and rock guitar (there are MUCH better options for those imho)

For acoustic guitar it is pretty unsuitable.

I would use the SE LDC.

Position it at the 12 fret- about 50-100cm from the guitar.

ecc83 · January 2014

spark240 said:

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the advice, I am using a Presonus Studio Live 16.4.2.
I have an SE electronics Large Diaphram mic , but I am looking for something as an additional mic .

Well you should have no problem with any mic with that Presonus unit!

As for the SE? I have a Sontronics STC-2 LDC and fine mic tho it is we find it rather ungainly around a guitar!

Dave.

Cirrus · January 2014

octatonic said:

SM57 is ok for snare and rock guitar (there are MUCH better options for those imho)
For acoustic guitar it is pretty unsuitable.

How do you know what's better or worse? Have you heard the sound he's trying to get? :-/ I find a '57 can be great on acoustic exactly because of it's limitations. You can end up with an earthy sound, limited transient response, but without it being too muddy. That might be perfect or shit, it just depends.

There's even a chance I'd be more likely to struggle with an SE LDC, if it's like many SE mics I've tried - Bright on axis, smeared and harsh off axis.

Sorry that the above sounds combative, it's just that with mics/ recording quite often people talk in absolutes that don't always make sense to me.

spark240 · January 2014

Well, I do find the SE a little " all encompassing " as it were, sounds a bit boxy in the room, so I was hoping to offset it with something a bit more directional. Could be I need some room treatment, I have been recording acoustic guitar direct generally ( Taylor 414CE) and seems ok, but the general opinion seems to be mic;d up is better ?

maltingsaudio · January 2014

Thing is we all have opinions on what mic to use and what it should sound like, personally if I were recording acoustic I would use either ADK SE1 small pencil or AT4050 to give a precise clean sound, on the other hand my mate is into acoustic blues and swears by Senn MD441 and SM 57. As an aside it is always handy to have a 57 lying around for an alternative go to coverall mic.

ThePrettyDamned · January 2014

There was a thread here somewhere where someone used a superlux pra 628mkii for acoustic and electric. It sounded okay to me, and he said the acoustic had knackered strings.

Can't remember who it was now...

but it's not made for acoustic, so much as amp mic stuff.

octatonic · January 2014

Cirrus said:

octatonic said:

SM57 is ok for snare and rock guitar (there are MUCH better options for those imho)
For acoustic guitar it is pretty unsuitable.

How do you know what's better or worse? Have you heard the sound he's trying to get? :-/ I find a '57 can be great on acoustic exactly because of it's limitations. You can end up with an earthy sound, limited transient response, but without it being too muddy. That might be perfect or shit, it just depends.

There's even a chance I'd be more likely to struggle with an SE LDC, if it's like many SE mics I've tried - Bright on axis, smeared and harsh off axis.

Sorry that the above sounds combative, it's just that with mics/ recording quite often people talk in absolutes that don't always make sense to me.

He asked for input, so I gave it based on my not inconsiderable experience recording guitars.

If he knew what he wanted then he wouldn't have asked.

This place is a good resource because some of us do this for a living and know what we're talking about.

I'm not talking in absolutes- I'm describing what I would use to do a job and how I would approach it- which is what he wanted- it is a personal preference.

Sure- you can use a contact mic on the headstock if you want a particular effect but in 99% of cases the goal is simply a 'well recorded signal'.

For a well recorded signal I wouldn't use an SM57 on acoustic guitar and actually, in 2014, there are many more mics I would go to first than an SM57 for any job at all.

Sounds to me you interpret people giving their opinion as them saying 'this is the only way to do something'.

That isn't true- anyone working in the industry knows that there are many ways to do it but a newbie needs to know the most common ways FIRST- otherwise they end up sinking under the weight of too many options.

guitarfishbay · January 2014

I've no experience with SE mics but I understand they're meant to be decent, so you should be able to get an ok sound.

I do find recording acoustics on your own in an untreated room can be a major challenge to get a good sound. If you have no options for acoustic treatment the best you can do is just test lots of positions - both of mics and where you play in the room, until you find something that works. Closed back headphones and something with a set of transport buttons on it you can move around the room (wireless keyboard/mouse or what I use is a 25 key Novation SL Mk2) will help you monitor without having to get up and lose your position. Any movements in position are going to make a noticeable difference in the recorded tone. When you find a position that works, try to stay there until you're done recording.

Cirrus · January 2014

Octa, quoting is difficult on the iPad so just pretend I've quoted your reply to me

I missed the bit where he asked for personal prefs, I just saw the bit where he wanted an sm57. Apologies for my selective reading!

I've done a wee bit of guitar recording in my time, though I can't say I make a living from it. You got any studio pics to feast on? B-) My goal is usually getting something that immediately sounds good in a particular mix as I build it up, so my philosophy involves a few more judgment calls as to which mic is right for the guitar/player/room/song. It's definitely more hit and miss, probably the only advantage of not relying on the results to pay the bills. :P

If I can give an opinion to the op, sorting your room acoustics out is probably priority 1. It gives you more choices re; mic positioning for a start, besides the benefit of things sounding better. Mic wise, if you can pick up a reasonably priced genuine oktava mk012 they're great sdcs for acoustics - detailed without being harsh and nice lower mids, plus nicer (to my ears) off axis response which I find good when you've got a mic close in on an acoustic instrument that has different parts if it's overall sound coming from different angles.

octatonic · January 2014

Cirrus said:

Octa, quoting is difficult on the iPad so just pretend I've quoted your reply to me I missed the bit where he asked for personal prefs, I just saw the bit where he wanted an sm57. Apologies for my selective reading!

I've done a wee bit of guitar recording in my time, though I can't say I make a living from it. You got any studio pics to feast on? B-) My goal is usually getting something that immediately sounds good in a particular mix as I build it up, so my philosophy involves a few more judgment calls as to which mic is right for the guitar/player/room/song. It's definitely more hit and miss, probably the only advantage of not relying on the results to pay the bills. :P

If I can give an opinion to the op, sorting your room acoustics out is probably priority 1. It gives you more choices re; mic positioning for a start, besides the benefit of things sounding better. Mic wise, if you can pick up a reasonably priced genuine oktava mk012 they're great sdcs for acoustics - detailed without being harsh and nice lower mids, plus nicer (to my ears) off axis response which I find good when you've got a mic close in on an acoustic instrument that has different parts if it's overall sound coming from different angles.

I wasn't intending to get into this too deeply but here goes.

Part of the problem with the way it works these days is people 'learn' from reading stuff on the internet- often 'learning' things that are written by people who also don't have much of a clue.

I learned to record from people who did it as a job and were training me up to do it as a job too.

That doesn't happen anymore- at least not much.

Also- I had to figure a lot out for myself- but I had the basics down thanks to some very experienced people who were kind enough to take me under their wing.

There are a number of best practices when recording acoustic guitar.

Are they 'rules' that have to be adhered to... No.

When people are learning the craft of recording the last thing you want to say to them is 'anything is possible' because all of those options are confusing and they don't teach you the craft of recording.

Recording an acoustic guitar well takes nothing more than a good LDC or SDC, pointed at around the 12th fret.

Then it is down to all the other stuff- acoustics, mic preamp, EQ & compression treatments- but the OP didn't ask about those and leading him off to another area where he has to spend more money isn't helpful, IMHO.

He already has a decent mic and enough gear to record something- he can practice with what he has before he needs to go out and spend more money.

If he wants to spend money anyway then cool- I won't stop him but the idea behind my first post was to inform him of a) the limitations of the SM57 on acoustic guitar and b) that he has *the right tool* already in his arsenal.

Cutting it down because you think it has a 'bright on axis response' or sounds 'smeared off axis' also isn't helpful.

All SE LDC mics do not perform one way or another.

They are not inherently bright and there is quite a degree of variation between, say a Gemini or an SE1000.

I'm not having a go at you- I'm just trying to explain why I wrote what I wrote and why I am replying to what you have written above.

Re studio pics- I have some- I've posted them before, I will see if I can dig them out.

Like a lot of guys these days, I have a mix room at home and a lot of gear in storage that I take to jobs in larger studios as and when.

spark240 · January 2014

Well.....certainly got some attention !

Thanks for all of the responses, I am a little old school in as much as lots of my early stuff was done using SM57 / 58 which seemed to be the "go to " mic for lots of applications, however I fully appreciate that things have moved on and I am open to current ideas / tech / products, hence I have invested in a PC, Presonus desk and Studio One software ( Im sure there will be opinions on this also ! ).

So...the goal...I will attend to the room acoustics in some way, I realise this is important.

I intend to get another mic, as I want to try this anyway...but which mic ?

I accept that...maybe...the 57 is not my best option, but do i get one anyway, not particularly expensive?

I will check out all of the options mentioned in the posts, in the meantime...if anyone has any recorded material that demonstrates your favoured mic....lets hear it?

Thank you.

maltingsaudio · January 2014

@spark as I said 57 good go to all round mic you already have large ish condensor suggest you add pencil condensor and AN other dynamic vocal mic but not a 58 but one of the new kids on the block, in reality you should have enough dynamics on you presonus to make any mic sound how you want it to

ecc83 · January 2014

Ooo-eerr! Something of a hornets nest been disturbed here!

My comment was based mainly in ignorance of the OP's interface. Generally when people ask about sub £100 mics they own sub £100 AIs! Few such interfaces have good enough pre amps in terms of gain and noise for a dynamic at a foot from an acoustic guitar. As it turns out the guy has an AI with excellent pres and should have no problems ELECTRONICALLY(!) with a 57.

As for sound quality? I mentioned my son liked the 57 over the AKG SDC and that was precisely because of its response limitations. He preferred the duller sound of the dymo to the more accurate (?) wideband sound of the capacitor. Personally I am "old school" and like my recordings as "hi-fi" as possible.

Dave.

spark240 · January 2014

ecc83 said:

Ooo-eerr! Something of a hornets nest been disturbed here!

My comment was based mainly in ignorance of the OP's interface. Generally when people ask about sub £100 mics they own sub £100 AIs! Few such interfaces have good enough pre amps in terms of gain and noise for a dynamic at a foot from an acoustic guitar. As it turns out the guy has an AI with excellent pres and should have no problems ELECTRONICALLY(!) with a 57.

As for sound quality? I mentioned my son liked the 57 over the AKG SDC and that was precisely because of its response limitations. He preferred the duller sound of the dymo to the more accurate (?) wideband sound of the capacitor. Personally I am "old school" and like my recordings as "hi-fi" as possible.

Dave.

Dave,

Yes, sorry, I should have listed my setup I guess...but that said, I only asked if anyone had a mic to sell ;-)

I do however appreciate all the comments , it is very useful .

spark240 · January 2014

Just had a quick net search...what are thoughts on a matched pair?

Say....Rode M5 or AKG 170 Perception, seem like good value?

JCA2550 · January 2014

Hi, to respond to spark240's original post, I have a Shure Beta 57A that's going spare.

Cheers,

C

octatonic · January 2014

spark240 said:

Just had a quick net search...what are thoughts on a matched pair?

Say....Rode M5 or AKG 170 Perception, seem like good value?

The Rode is a chaper version of the NT5, which I like on acoustic guitar. Stereo recording requires more skill to be successful with- you need to be aware of phase issues between the mics and be able to correct. Don't let that put you off, just be aware of it.

spark240 · January 2014

JCA2550 said:

Hi, to respond to spark240's original post, I have a Shure Beta 57A that's going spare.

Cheers,

C

Hi, well as you can see from the thread....Im not even sure that the any 57 is the way forward for my purpose, the more I have thought about it I realise that a lot of my recording will be acoustic guitar so I am leaning towards a more taylored setup.

I will keep it in mind though and thanks for the offer.

spark240 · January 2014

octatonic said:

spark240 said:

Just had a quick net search...what are thoughts on a matched pair?

Say....Rode M5 or AKG 170 Perception, seem like good value?

The Rode is a chaper version of the NT5, which I like on acoustic guitar. Stereo recording requires more skill to be successful with- you need to be aware of phase issues between the mics and be able to correct. Don't let that put you off, just be aware of it.

So...I apologise for my ignorance but a matched pair still has phasing issues?....what is " matched" about them?

If I were to just use my SE mic on bridge and add any 2nd mic at the neck lets say, would I still encounter phasing?

octatonic · January 2014

I use the beta 57 for toms (although I prefer MD421 or 441) and for brass or woodwind (I quite like it on less 'nasal' instruments- wouldn't use it on an oboe for example).

There aren't many dynamics that I like on acoustic guitar- the Sennheiser MD441 is one of them but they are expensive- you will find a condenser for a lot less that does the job.

If you are happy to buy second hand then consider getting a Rode NT2.

I use them a lot on acoustic guitar and vocals.

They can be had for around £100-140 used.

Make sure you get one with the hard case and the original shock mount if you can.

They will generally be better cared for, i.e. stored in their case.

They have different versions of it now- this is the model I use:

http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/rode-nt2-259963.jpg

I have 3 of them- good workhorse mic.

Also consider Audio Technica mics.

The AT2020 is something like £80- very neutral sounding.

I like them a lot considering the price.

Cirrus · January 2014

AT2020 is a very good call, I had one a few years ago, dolphin had 50% off so I think I got it for less than £40. Was genuinely shocked at how nice it sounded, and in a couple of cases I preferred it to the 4050 I also had then.

Spark, I'll try to get in to my practice studio later and knock up a recording with the oktava 012, a sontronics LCD and an sm57 on my acoustic.

A spaced stereo pair on an acoustic I find tricky to get right, there will be phase differences between the mics as different parts of the sound are coming from different parts of the guitar, but phase differences aren't always problems - they're often part of the clues our ears pick up on to give us the experience of stereo. The only real solution is to monitor what you're picking up and make sure it sounds good! For a 'realistic' sounding stereo spread acoustic using x/y, ortf or even m/s techniques are good (plenty of info on the web for these if you've not come across them!) that said, unless you really want stereo for whatever reason or you just can't get the sound you want with one mic I'd stick to mono - it sits in mixes better generally and as octo says for the most part a mic pointed at the 12th fret will do the job well.

octatonic · January 2014

Very much so.

I am always hesitant to even discuss advance recording concepts ( ORFT, binaural head, mid-side etc) with people before they have a bit of experience with regular mono mic technique.

Out of all of them I use M/S the most as I like the flexibility it gives me to be able to control the centre separate to the sides.

Also there is less likely to be issues with phase as the two mics are placed so close to one another.

But for the OP it could be years down the line, or never.

Thinking about that though- also check out the Beyer ribbon mics- the M160 and M130.

They are expensive but you can find them relatively cheap used.

I use them a lot on acoustic guitar, albeit in MS.

Cirrus · January 2014

Hopefully these links work! I tried to balance the volumes but soundcloud might have ballsed that up, and the pre I was using isn't that quiet so the '57 track is a little noisier than the other two.

spark240 · January 2014

Ok cool...but ..i can only listen to the sm57 piece, no other will play?

is the 57 just recoreded straight with no added EQ or effects etc?

Cirrus · January 2014

No processing, just mic to preamp to track and bounced down. If you find my soundcloud profile, the top three recordings are the three takes with the different mics. The links worked earlier, now they don't. Oh well!

guitarfishbay · January 2014

I think if you remove the   they work

https://soundcloud.com/cirrusband/shure-sm57-at-practice-room

https://soundcloud.com/cirrusband/sontronics-stc-2-lcd-at

https://soundcloud.com/cirrusband/oktava-mk-012-at-practice-room

spark240 · January 2014

So they do !

impmann · January 2014

ThePrettyDamned said:

There was a thread here somewhere where someone used a superlux pra 628mkii for acoustic and electric. It sounded okay to me, and he said the acoustic had knackered strings.

Can't remember who it was now... but it's not made for acoustic, so much as amp mic stuff.

That was me - and this was the thread:

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/2234/recommend-me-a-good-budget-mic-for-micing-my-amp-live/p1

And this was the track:

https://soundcloud.com/tim-d-morgan/start-again

These mics are an absolute bargain - and to my ears don't sound any 'worse' than a '57... :-) But you pay's your money etc...

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