Do all acoustics action creep up over time?

RandallFlagg · July 2016

6 month old Martin D28 and action is starting to creep up, it came with the factory 7/64 - 5/64ths and is now, 6 months old and Is now at 8.64ths to 5 and a half 64ths. It doesn't sound a lot but feels noticable under the fingers. All 3 acoustics I have had have the action creep up but after the initial change they seem to settle down after that. This is normal isn't it? or is anyone lucky enough to have an acoustic that kept it's action stable from new. Time to have the bridge saddle shaved

TTony · July 2016

Is that a truss-rod tweak situation?

Surely the only thing that can cause the action to rise is if the neck has moved a fraction. Unless the string tension is causing the top of the guitar to lift?

RandallFlagg · July 2016

Truss rod is fine, relief is .010. No the neck hasn't moved either. It's the top bellying slightly under string tension plus it's summer so is a little more humid causing the wood to swell a little more than normal. It may or may not settle back in winter, previous acoustics haven't

ICBM · July 2016

Yes, most acoustics do eventually creep up over time. The top will move, it's quite normal with humidity changes and as the wood settles down after the guitar is made.

In the very long term the angle of the neck block can change slightly too, although that will take years on a good-quality guitar - but a very small change makes a noticeable difference, and eventually the neck may need re-setting.

Bear in mind the total string tension is usually around 150lb on an acoustic with 12-gauge strings. That's an enormous amount of force for such a thin wooden shell to handle.

earwighoney · July 2016

RandallFlagg said:

6 month old Martin D28 and action is starting to creep up, it came with the factory 7/64 - 5/64ths and is now, 6 months old and Is now at 8.64ths to 5 and a half 64ths. It doesn't sound a lot but feels noticable under the fingers. All 3 acoustics I have had have the action creep up but after the initial change they seem to settle down after that. This is normal isn't it? or is anyone lucky enough to have an acoustic that kept it's action stable from new. Time to have the bridge saddle shaved, can anyone recommend a competent acoustic technicican/repairer anywhere near King's Lynn, Norfolk?

It could also be that the soundboard of your guitar has swollen slightly due to the conditions right now which are very high in humidity and to bring the action back down would require the saddle to be lowered. I myself would prefer to get a new saddle with a lower height and keep that for high humidity conditions and keep the original saddle for when the humidity is low. Or it could be your guitar is a bit on the damp side of things. Do you leave it out of the case much?

It is normal for guitars wood to expand contract in their early days as they acclimatise to the new environment of the guitar. Generally, the more expensive a guitar is the lighter built/lighter braced it is/lighter finished it will be and consequently will be more prone to environmental conditions. All the lightly built guitars I have owned from new have required an element of great care in their early days but generally find their ways after some time.

Do you have a humidity meter for where you keep your guitars? The general consensus is to keep guitars between 40-70%, for 'safe' purposes. I've found my guitars soundboards expanded at over 55% or so, definitely above 60%.

RandallFlagg · July 2016

earwighoney said:

RandallFlagg said:

6 month old Martin D28 and action is starting to creep up, it came with the factory 7/64 - 5/64ths and is now, 6 months old and Is now at 8.64ths to 5 and a half 64ths. It doesn't sound a lot but feels noticable under the fingers. All 3 acoustics I have had have the action creep up but after the initial change they seem to settle down after that. This is normal isn't it? or is anyone lucky enough to have an acoustic that kept it's action stable from new. Time to have the bridge saddle shaved, can anyone recommend a competent acoustic technicican/repairer anywhere near King's Lynn, Norfolk?

It could also be that the soundboard of your guitar has swollen slightly due to the conditions right now which are very high in humidity and to bring the action back down would require the saddle to be lowered. I myself would prefer to get a new saddle with a lower height and keep that for high humidity conditions and keep the original saddle for when the humidity is low. Or it could be your guitar is a bit on the damp side of things. Do you leave it out of the case much?

It is normal for guitars wood to expand contract in their early days as they acclimatise to the new environment of the guitar. Generally, the more expensive a guitar is the lighter built/lighter braced it is/lighter finished it will be and consequently will be more prone to environmental conditions. All the lightly built guitars I have owned from new have required an element of great care in their early days but generally find their ways after some time.

Do you have a humidity meter for where you keep your guitars? The general consensus is to keep guitars between 40-70%, for 'safe' purposes. I've found my guitars soundboards expanded at over 55% or so, definitely above 60%.

Thanks, this makes a lot of sense. I think you're right about getting new saddle and adjusting it to give a better action and keeping the factory fitted one in case the guitar action returns over winter.

Yes I have a hygrometer and humidity reads 43% today but goes up to 58% and has ben as low as 26% (no idea when though as I've never witnessed it that low!) Typically, the D28 is on a wall hanger in a room with no direct sunlight, and humidity is typically around 45%

I have been away overseas for 2 weeks for work and it was fine before I left but I gather there has been rain just about every day since I left so air is pretty humid.

RandallFlagg · July 2016

ICBM said:

Yes, most acoustics do eventually creep up over time. The top will move, it's quite normal with humidity changes and as the wood settles down after the guitar is made.

In the very long term the angle of the neck block can change slightly too, although that will take years on a good-quality guitar - but a very small change makes a noticeable difference, and eventually the neck may need re-setting.

Bear in mind the total string tension is usually around 150lb on an acoustic with 12-gauge strings. That's an enormous amount of force for such a thin wooden shell to handle.

yes, this makes sense, it's Martin with solid spruce top and it is thin, as expected on a high quality instrument, and it's on the wall, it's for playing and is my grab and go noodler (so is my R8 Les Paul and AV 52 Tele). I can't be arsed keep putting guitars in/out of case.

BahHumbug · July 2016

As has been said, it's a new guitar, so it will be settling.....and it will move with humidity changes. I find that the action on some of my acoustics moves on an annual cycle, with humidity higher in summer and lower in winter. I tweak the truss rod if needed.

The industry try to sell us humidifiers, but I really think that that gear is mainly for the US market where the extremes of temperature and humidity are much more, er, extreme and can can produce quite gross distortion in acoustic guitar bodies.

ToneControl · July 2016

biggest changes on an acoustic will be down to the top moving with humidity.

The neck will move slightly too - can be enough to need a truss rod tweak if you don't control humidity

However, the top can be damaged

Best to get a humidifier on a hygrostat

thomasross20 · July 2016

I'm going to get mine given the once over by somebody as I swear the action on it was a little lower prior to my recent string change.

That, or it was previously so badly out of tune, the strings were slacker and was easier to play.

ICBM · July 2016

thomasross20 said:

I'm going to get mine given the once over by somebody as I swear the action on it was a little lower prior to my recent string change.
That, or it was previously so badly out of tune, the strings were slacker and was easier to play.

Did you use the same gauge?

Even then, different brands of the same gauge can have slightly different tension, although I wouldn't have thought it would be enough to pull the action up, you just may feel them as stiffer.

thomasross20 · July 2016

Same gauge (11) but different brand.. defo going to just pay to make sure it's the best it can be.

RandallFlagg · July 2016

11s on an acoustic? you light weight!

thomasross20 · July 2016

Yeah, I know!

I don't want hand problems in future playing gauges that are too heavy for me, though

Wolfetone · July 2016

Install a Stewmac Bridge Doctor and it will be sorted. I did my Tanglewood a couple of years back and it's now as steady as a rock.

Lewy · July 2016

Wolfetone said:

Install a Stewmac Bridge Doctor and it will be sorted. I did my Tanglewood a couple of years back and it's now as steady as a rock.

I wouldn't say this is an appropriate remedy for a nearly new D28. Flying braces like the Bridge Doctor are sensible for guitars where the cost of a neck reset wouldn't be worth it, but this guitar is just doing what all new Martins do. It just needs a set up, and assuming the OP is the original owner, if it requires anything more drastic it will be covered under warranty.

ICBM · July 2016

Lewy said:

Wolfetone said:

Install a Stewmac Bridge Doctor and it will be sorted. I did my Tanglewood a couple of years back and it's now as steady as a rock.

I wouldn't say this is an appropriate remedy for a nearly new D28. Flying braces like the Bridge Doctor are sensible for guitars where the cost of a neck reset wouldn't be worth it, but this guitar is just doing what all new Martins do. It just needs a set up, and assuming the OP is the original owner, if it requires anything more drastic it will be covered under warranty.

I all honesty I wouldn't put one on a really good guitar anyway - to me they're exactly as you say, a sensible fix for a guitar where the proper solution isn't economical. I know they're supposed not to affect the sound, but in my experience they do - and if you think about it, how can something that makes the top more rigid relative to the endblock *not* do?

A friend of mine bought an old D-35 with one fitted - the guitar sounded tight and not really like an old Martin should. We took it off, and although the action was then uncomfortably high, the tone and volume of the guitar opened up enormously. He eventually had the neck re-set.

I would still recommend one for a cheaper guitar with top bellying problems though - the prime candidate I can think of is old Yamaha FGs, which often can't be made really playable without a neck reset and are a problem to do economically, not least because of the type of glue that was used to attach it in the first place...

Danny1969 · July 2016

I always been impressed by the action on Taylor acoustics, even the 12 strings play like electrics, really low action. Last week I went to one of their roadshows and was surprised to learn the necks are bolt on and simply shimmed with coded shims to get the perfect angle. If things move over time then a re shim is £150 which seems a good way of doing it

thomasross20 · July 2016

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before.

Gassage · July 2016

ICBM said:

Yes, most acoustics do eventually creep up over time. The top will move, it's quite normal with humidity changes and as the wood settles down after the guitar is made.

In the very long term the angle of the neck block can change slightly too, although that will take years on a good-quality guitar - but a very small change makes a noticeable difference, and eventually the neck may need re-setting.

Bear in mind the total string tension is usually around 150lb on an acoustic with 12-gauge strings. That's an enormous amount of force for such a thin wooden shell to handle.

Put in much simpler terms:

T (Tension) = (UW x (2 x L x F)2) / 386.4

ToneControl · July 2016

thomasross20 said:

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before.

is it an undersaddle pickup?

thomasross20 · July 2016

Yeah, but they're nowhere near the string ball-ends

crunchman · July 2016

ToneControl said:

thomasross20 said:

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before.

is it an undersaddle pickup?

It's not an unddersaddle. Don't think @ToneControl understood what you meant.

There's no reason a K&K should affect action at all.

ICBM · July 2016

thomasross20 said:

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before.

Are they the same gauge? If you went up one (eg 11s to 12s) the acton will be slightly higher and the strings could be binding in the nut grooves.

ToneControl · July 2016

crunchman said:

ToneControl said:

thomasross20 said:

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before.

is it an undersaddle pickup?

It's not an unddersaddle. Don't think @ToneControl understood what you meant.

There's no reason a K&K should affect action at all.

I thought they were magnetic, checked their site, and they do one undersaddle model

ToneControl · July 2016

ICBM said:

thomasross20 said:

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before.

Are they the same gauge? If you went up one (eg 11s to 12s) the acton will be slightly higher and the strings could be binding in the nut grooves.

and unlikely - but check if the saddle came out and went back in the other way round by mistake
I did that once

ICBM · July 2016

ToneControl said:

crunchman said:

ToneControl said:

thomasross20 said:

Ever since I fitted that K&K and put new strings on, I've noticed the action feels high (as I mentioned before). Also.. the strings seem to be going out of tune a bit more. It's a little frustrating - it was never like this before.

is it an undersaddle pickup?

It's not an unddersaddle. Don't think @ToneControl understood what you meant.

There's no reason a K&K should affect action at all.

I thought they were magnetic, checked their site, and they do one undersaddle model

These ones are the triple contact sensors that glue onto the inside of the bridgeplate.

The only reasons the action could have gone up when fitting one is if either the new strings are heavier than the old ones, or some dirt or something has got lodged under the bridge saddle, or - just possible, but unlikely - the truss rod has somehow moved and stuck when the string tension was off… but although that can happen, I've never known it do anything other than *lower* the action by causing an unwanted back-bow.

thomasross20 · July 2016

Oh sorry, I thought that was the same as undersaddle!
I went from gauge 12 to gauge 11... but I've been playing gauge 11 for over a year on it now..

I'll defo get you to check it out @ICBM, just whenever you're free. I'm in Dunoon for 4 nights from Wednesday.

ICBM · July 2016

thomasross20 said:

I'm in Dunoon for 4 nights from Wednesday.

Take some midge repellent

.

thomasross20 · July 2016

That's what everybody is telling me - so my girlfriend has got some

BigLicks67 · July 2016

RandallFlagg said:

yes, this makes sense, it's Martin with solid spruce top and it is thin, as expected on a high quality instrument, and it's on the wall, it's for playing and is my grab and go noodler (so is my R8 Les Paul and AV 52 Tele). I can't be arsed keep putting guitars in/out of case.

Not 100% but I'm sure I read that Martin recommends that you do not hang the guitar from a wall that is also external facing, if that makes sense.

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Do all acoustics action creep up over time?

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