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Klone Army
randomhandclaps
Frets: 20521
I am thinking of starting a business selling clones of Klon clones. Which would be the best Klon clone to clone?)
Seriously though, why are some companies, correctly in my opinion, pillarised for ripping off designs like the Timmy, yet the Klon is pilfered wholesale by some and it's considered acceptable?
I am truly interested in what people think. I know the price of the original puts it out of reach of most etc and I have no issue with someone making up a clone or two and selling it on. However many makers have made a tidy profit 'mass' producing Klon clones without facing the wrath of internet forums. Why is this?
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"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson
But regarding the original question, I personally don't have a massive problem with clones as long as they're up-front about it- that way people who want to buy the original can still do so, and people who don't want the original can buy the clone (whether that's because they can't afford the original, or want a "better" (more expensive) version, if you ask me, neither group is really in the target market of the original manufacturer).
It's the people claiming to have reinvented the wheel when it's JATS that I don't like.
I have a bunch of cheaper clones and I rationalise it that, for all I use pedals, there's no way I'd have been buying the original at the price they cost. At the price of joyo, mooer etc. it's just a bit of fun for when i feel like mucking about with pedals- when i need srs bzness distortion I have high gain amps for that.
I'm also not gonna tell some 13 year old kid who's saved up his/her pocket money for ages that he/she is awful for buying, say, a bad monkey instead of a tubescreamer.
Let me know when you have finalised the name and I will take one...maybe two if they are dear enough or limited enough.
That would actually be a nice experiment. Put something in a fancy enclosure, claim it's a clone of something sought-after when it's not, and then see if they all notice.
A similar one with a cheapo pedal rehoused in a fancy enclosure but claimed to be some mythical new od would also be a nice experiment. Though I suppose you could claim that experiment happened already with the freekish thing...
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson
Although any circuit is fair game, this isn't solely what's happening with Klon clones. Those who are making and properly marketing Klon clones wholesale are using the name and the attached bullshit to sell theirs. Basically it's 'The Klon is the Holy Grail, but you don't want to pay holy grail prices do you?'.
I'm don't really buy into the good guy, bad guy angle. I have never read a bad comment about Paul C, but that doesn't mean his spare time isn't spent drowning baby bunnies. He may genuinely be a great bloke or he may be very astute at personal marketing. With Bill trying to shut FSB, although I would have hated to see it, I can understand him being pissed - would you not be? It's not a cure for cancer that he should be morally obliged to share. Although it may not have been the holy grail beneath the goop, it obviously impressed and intrigued someone enough to see what was under there.
That's it. As a subject it is as grey as grey can be.
That being said, there are some on TGP I don't feel sorry for- I remember about a year after that Freekish thing went down, it came up on TGP in a pedal argument and someone there swore blind the Freekish one had mojo while the Joyo didn't. He was being completely serious.
You couldn't make it up.
Not to take the thread off at a tangent (in my defence, juansolo made me think of it when he mentioned Bill Finnegan trying to get a slice of the hyped used market), but what also I find somewhat bemusing is how a lot of people who are totally anti-clone (because clones mean the originator doesn't get any money) have no problem whatsoever with buying "the real thing" second-hand.
How does that work? Last I checked if you buy something s/h, the original manufacturer gets no money at all.
Maybe they'd claim that the knowledge they could sell it on to someone else gave the original purchaser the shove they needed to buy the thing new (hence giving the original designer/manufacturer money), or maybe they'd claim that if people see the thing on their boards it gives the originator free advertising... but both of those are a stretch, if you ask me. Especially when they're so black and white about the cloning thing, to then have such a nuanced justification of their own purchasing philosophy is kinda hypocritical, if you ask me.
Just to clarify, I have no problem with people buying things second hand. I have no real problem with clones either, in most instances (as I pointed out already in an earlier post).
I disagree entirely with that viewpoint. By that logic, the more important the invention/discovery you make, the less you deserve to benefit from it? That's messed up.
It seems to be a viewpoint which is quite prevalent currently- that the boffins can invent the important stuff for little or no reward (or taken further, teachers, nurses, doctors etc. should do it because it's a "calling"), while those doing the less important stuff can get on with making shitloads of money.
"What you're doing is too important to make money out of, you should be doing it out of the goodness of your heart. But what I'm doing, I should be free to make as much money as possible!"
Kinda convenient.
Don't get me wrong- I agree that if someone discovers a cure for cancer (or similar) that they better darn well share it pretty darn quickly. But by that same logic, to be logically consistent, that means any invention should be shared.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson
That being said, I'm not as anti-downloading as most people seem to be (or maybe that's just the media I'm reading and normal people don't care), though I don't illegally download either.
And you make a good point about the second-hand market supply being limited by the amount of things which have been bought new- if you don't have patience, you may end up having to go new. Though I'd say that, from a philosophical point of view, there's very little difference there logically, just it's the technology difference. The average person can copy a CD in a few minutes on their computer, whereas the same can't be said for most other consumer products (like a table, or a shirt, or a guitar, or whatever).
But really it's a whole big grey area, as you said/implied. That's why I don't like them bringing in sweeping laws (eg. about downloading) when, taken to their logical conclusion, they could make a bunch of other things illegal (or at least, being logically consistent, they should be) which we've taken for granted up till now should be legal.
Mainly I agree with the "This is my opinion on the matter, but I realise it's my opinion and you can have arguments against it that are perfectly valid" approach that several people in the thread have been saying.
(b) I'd agree, however, with the caveat "as long as the original company isn't taking the piss with the price they charge". Granted, that's a whole other grey area.
I'd also probably put in the caveat that as long as the cloner isn't really aiming at the original's target market, then it's ok, too. As I said, I'm not gonna tell some kid who can just about afford a joyo that what they really should ethically do is do without an overdrive pedal altogether.
You could probably also make a case that making something which already exists cheaper is, in itself, some form of original thought. For example, if a company comes up with a way to make an existing product way cheaper, that's arguably innovation, too.
Granted, if they rip off a PC design and make savings only because they had no R&D costs and they're paying slave labour rates in the third world, that probably doesn't involve quite so much innovation...
Sorry Dave, I was not suggesting boffins shouldn't make money off important breakthroughs. Completely the opposite.
I was actually making the point that FSB took the attitude that we should know what's going on in the and published the build for people with not an ounce of electronic understanding to replicate - whether rightly or wrongly. The attitude that that Bill should either share his ideas for free or else he's a bad bloke in which case we should be able to take them anyway.
My only reference to the 'cure for cancer' argument is that if Bill had discovered a cure for cancer and was charging £4,000,000 a shot you could understand the 'Robin Hood' justification of pulling his ideas apart. He was however selling an electronic item for £300 - there are plenty of others making money out of their ideas and at the end of the day it's a guitar pedal. Sharing the idea will not change the world but will change Bill's and I could understand why he would be pissed. I'm not saying I agree with him, and in many ways as Juan said I think he's his own worst enemy.
It was already out of production, and there were certain builders - either in small runs or large scale making them. Obviously it's not voodoo and anybody with a decent understanding of electronics who got beneath the goop would see what was going on. I think the availability of schematics and layouts is fantastic for those who wish to learn and educate themselves, in the same way as tablature. As a pedal or amp repairer it would be impossible to cope without them.
Personally I think FSB and Diystompboxes are both fantastic resources and communities that I both read and contribute to and would fight to keep them open. It's great when people are out to learn, experiment and develop their own ideas.
If you take Brian Wampler as an example, it's common knowledge he started off modding and building clones as anyone would need capital to fund either their interest/hobby or start up a business and get their name known. The publishing of schematics can have a positive effect for some builders, like Paul C, especially when you read short-sighted TGP mob etc sniping 'I opened up my Timmy and it's just a modified Tube Screamer'. I also think it's helps real original thinkers and designers by exposing the re-inventing and overcharging of the wheel in the case of designs like the SHO or COT. With these two particularly I think the builders get what they deserve as they are taking publically available circuits and claiming to have invented them.
Juansolo, on your Klone listing on EBay you even state where you can get the PCB. It's very clear that I am purchasing your time, care and enclosure design from a relatively small output. There is no point at which you are claiming it is anything other than what it is or making wholesale amounts of someone else's designs. On top of this you website actively shares information and is another good resource.
Besides it though you have wholesale reproductions of Klons, making the very claims that you should be wary of amateur and hobbyists despite the fact that it is a copied circuit that would require no knowledge of circuit designs to construct.
It's those who have sat in the middle, slagging off hobbyist or small scale builders whilst ripping off designers that I have a real issue with. It's like poisoning the well after you have drunk from it. The original Timmys and Mad Professor pedal (just to name two) were built on perfboard or vero and hand finished. In that way that could have been dismissed as amateurish but clearly aren't. I don't really see a difference between this and large scale corporations trying to crush smaller outlets who are actually trying to develop new concepts and designs with unfounded and ill-educated marketing or scare-mongering.