Please help to settle a disagreement

close2u · November 2013

I'm practicing the Stevie Nicks song Dreams from Rumours.

I reckon that the chord progression is simply F to G and back to F. The F chord is sometimes F major7, sometimes F add9 ... and the G chord is sometimes G7. I play one, and one only, bar of A minor in the 2nd repeat of the instrumental guitar part.

So, I have it in C major / F lydian if thinking in modal terms. (G mixolydian at a push is also possible).

Our keyboard player, playing a piano part from a music score reckons it is in A minor and he plays arpeggiated Am to G to F to G repeatedly (with some additional notes making those chords in to 9s etc).

The melody is pretty much centred around the notes C and A and the others in a pentatonic C, D, E, G, A (C major pentatonic or A minor pentatonic - you take your pick).

C Major is the parent of F lydian, G mixolydian and A minor.

But I do not hear / see / think the song as A minor at all.

What do you reckon?

mike_l · November 2013

Depends on how you think about music.

I mostly think in minor keys, so would go with Am.

Someone who mostly thinks in major keys would go with C major.

As the melody is centred around C and A either would work in theory.

There is an Am chord but no C major.....

stickyfiddle · November 2013

I reckon it's in A minor, but that's the same as C major key-signature-wise.

(This is why I subscribe to the logic that music is best written without worrying about theory...)

viz · November 2013

With 2 major chords a tone apart (F and G), given that chord 1 has a major 7 and chord 2 has a dominant 7, and the fact that the fist chord is the lower one and the 2nd is the higher one, there are only 2 options, C major or A minor.
But it's definitely in A minor because the chorus proves it by using the A minor as the tonic, which she lands on the so often. It's also a mournful melody. It's A minor.

mike_l · November 2013

@viz ; WTF is a "fist chord"?

%-(

close2u · November 2013

All for A minor so far ....

I took a lot of persuading towards F Lydian from this article - specifically from page 111

http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=gamut

ddlooping · November 2013

I think of it as being in the key of C maj | A min (same thing as far as I'm concerned).

It's mostly re-enforced by the fact that most melodies (either vocal or guitar) are using the corresponding pentatonic scale.
I don't get why your keyboardist would be playing an arpeggiated Am to G though, it is not in any version of the song I've heard.

Gulliver · November 2013

I would label it as F Lydian rather than A Minor or C major.

The reason for this that the F chord is the one that feels like 'home' - so build everything based on that premise and you're in Lydian-town baby!!

octatonic · November 2013

I would go with A minor- but without playing it (which I can't do right now) C major could work as well.

Lydian is a mode, not a key- you can't have a piece of music in the key of F Lydian for this reason.

close2u · November 2013

I know that Lydian is a mode not a key.

In strict terms Aeolian is a mode but we do allow ourselves to have music in minor keys.

I know that it's all the white keys on a keyboard.

I know that if it's called C Major then it is just a piece with a missing tonic.

I don't think that one A minor chord in the progression should define the key.

That said, the melody doesn't stray too far away from a pentatonic and only occasionally brings in an F note ( for a tonic note if F lydian) or a B note (for a #4 to really define lydian).

viz · November 2013

I think Lydian is a scale not a mode! as is Aeolian, as is Ionian. Ok they are modes of each other but I believe that's irrelevant, they are scales in their own right. But you are right, they are not keys. But they are scales. Just like the word Aegilopa is a word (it's an 8-letter word and it means ulcer of the eye - and funnily enough, each letter is higher than the last, apart from the last letter which returns to the first - a bit like the Ionian scale in C: CDEFGABC). And the 2nd mode of aegilopa is egilopae, but it's not only the 2nd mode of aegilopa, egilopae also a word in its own right (it's the plural of a flour ingredient, mentioned in an old french recipe book) - and even the 3rd mode of aegilopa, gilopaeg, is a "word" - it's someone's email address so it doesn't need to be described just as the 3rd mode of aegilopa, it can also be described as someone's email address. ilopaegi is obviously well known in the phrase "las presuntas imputaciones detenida Carmen iLopaegi" hahahaha! love it. Lopaegil was mentioned in the San Fransisco chronical in 1901 as we all know; opaegilo is not just the 5th word of aegilopa, it's also someone's grandfather. And paegilop is also a word, as we all know, in the studies of edgar polome. Anyway, so I think it was A minor.

ToneControl · November 2013

viz said:

I think Lydian is a scale not a mode! as is Aeolian, as is Ionian. Ok they are modes of each other but I believe that's irrelevant, they are scales in their own right. But you are right, they are not keys. But they are scales. Just like the word Aegilopa is a word (it's an 8-letter word and it means ulcer of the eye - and funnily enough, each letter is higher than the last, apart from the last letter which returns to the first - a bit like the Ionian scale in C: CDEFGABC. And the 2nd mode of aegilopa is egilopae, but it's not only the 2nd mode of aegilopa, egilopae also a word in its own right (it's the plural of a flour ingredient, mentioned in an old french recipe book) - and even the 3rd mode of aegilopa, gilopaeg, is a "word" - it's someone's email address so it doesn't need to be described just as the 3rd mode of aegilopa, it can also be described as someone's email address. ilopaegi is obviously well known in the phrase "las presuntas imputaciones detenida Carmen iLopaegi" hahahaha! love it. Lopaegil was mentioned in the San Fransisco chronical in 1901 as we all know; opaegilo is not just the 5th word of aegilopa, it's also someone's grandfather. And paegilop is also a word, as we all know, in the studies of edgar polome. Anyway, so I think it was A minor.

what a spectacular essay

viz · November 2013

Can't quite believe I wrote that. I'd been to an event with a lot of wine. Took me ages to find an 8-letter word with ascending letters and ending on the first letter - and still can't really believe all 6 modes of it actually exist!

octatonic · November 2013

Viz, you nutter!

The scale/mode, although tertiary to the original question, is an interesting one.

You can think of it either way and that will largely be a cultural difference.

If I had of written 'Lydian is a scale, not a key' I am certain someone else would have said 'It is a mode, you moron'.

I think it comes back to how you learned music.

If you come from a classical background you learn that the major scale is the mother of all music, the natural minor is derived from the major scale and the modes of the major scale are just that, modes.

Most people will know this but for those that don't- in the classical tradition you play the natural minor descending differently from how it is played ascending.

If you learn music from a popular music or jazz perspective then you might well consider modes to be scales and the natural minor as a scale in its own right- you ascend the same as you descend. Also, the modes, especially Dorian, Mixolydian and Lydian, are played as scales in their own right.

viz · November 2013

Re playing melodic minor up and aeolian down, that's right, and that's why the melodic minor is so called, becase it is "melodic" to raise the 6th and 7th when ascending to the tonic, and it's also melodic to flatten them to their natural positions when descending - it's how those dudes thought of choons.

octatonic · November 2013

viz said:

Re playing melodic minor up and aeolian down, that's right, and that's why the melodic minor is so called, becase it is "melodic" to raise the 6th and 7th when ascending to the tonic, and it's also melodic to flatten them to their natural positions when descending - it's how those dudes thought of choons.

At music school we were taught that it was to avoid the tone and a half jump that is inherent in the harmonic minor.

The melodic minor was created as a modification to the harmonic minor, rather than being derived from the natural minor.

viz · November 2013

Oh absolutely, you're right about the evolution

I just mean that's why they call it melodic minor, because you raise the 7th on the way up, as a leading note, and you raise the 6th too (to avoid the 1.5 step), because that's how melody was written, and on the way down you don't need it, because you're not leading up to the tonic, you're coming away from it so you revert to the natural minor; and the harmonic minor was so called because it's aligned with the chords that make up typical minor harmony.

mike_l · November 2013

@viz isn;'t that the "Jazz scale" that you've described? so the intervals are the same ascending and descending, which gives different notes?

It might just be my understanding, but the natural minor has the same notes as the major, and the harmonic minor has the same as the major, apart from the (in the minor) 7th note is raised by a semi-tone?

EG using Cmajor/A minor

C major C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Am A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

Am harmonic A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A

Or am I completely wrong and need to go stand on the naughty step?

viz · November 2013

Well I don't know about this jazz scale stuff (and the ascending melodic minor has a natural 2 and minor 3, but a raised 6th and 7th, so playing its inversion would be a flattened 2 and minor 3, so ike a phrygian, and playing the aeolian inversion would have a natural 2 and major 3, so like Ionian, so if that's what you mean, then no I don't think so.
But most importantly, I don't think we should think of the minor scales as being related to the major (in the same key, I mean; obviously A minor is related to C major), but as follows:
Aside from knowing what the tonic is, the first thing to know is, is it major, or minor? That's fixed by the 3rd note.
Then if it's major, it's either a standard Ionian major (natural 4th, major 7th), or it's Lydian (augmented 4th) or it's mixolydian (flattened 7th).
If it's minor, it's either natural minor, " Aeolian" (natural 2, natural 6, natural 7), or it's a deviation, for example dorian (raised 6), phrygian (flattened 2), melodic (raised 6 and 7 if playing ascending), or harmonic (raised 7, causing an augmented 2nd at the top).
I do not agree with the strange convention of saying "melodic minor is basically ionian with a flattened 3rd"; it's more correct to say "melodic minor is basically aeolian with a raised 6 and 7" - BECAUSE the distinction between major and minor is so damn important that, after noting what key the scale is in, it's the first thing to note. It's the primary differentiator. So it doesn't make sense to describe any diatonic minor scale in terms of deviations from any major scale. They should be described in terms of deviations from their natural minor.

viz · November 2013

By the way there are only 3 symmetrical heptatonic scales using just tones and semitones - the dorian, the neapolitan major scale (starts phrygian and ends ionian), and the hindu scale (5th mode of melodic minor, the one which starts major and ends aeolian).

mike_l · November 2013

Ok naughty step for Mike then.

viz · November 2013

Maybe not, I just wasn't sure what you were getting at

and if it is, you only have to stay there for 5 minutes anyway.

mike_l · November 2013

Typically, I can't find the notes I have on the J-scale.

viz · November 2013

J scale lol

mike_l · November 2013

On the plus side I did find a nice modes exercise, which I'll put in it's own thread

thisisguitar · November 2013

I'd personally think of it as being F Lydian (key signature as C major). The first chord in most music gives away the key. Starting with F and moving to G would imply the IV / V progression.

There is no Am in the song, though Fmaj7 can be thought of as Am/F, but the root from the bass means any Am would be Fmaj7.

A lot of vocal melodies are based around pentatonic options, even when more complex options are available. Same with guitar solos. Sticking to pentatonics with this would leave the opportunity of hitting 'B' out of the equation… and it sounds great.

The vocal melody does home in on the 'A' note a lot, but it's still a strong note over F as it's the third.

Try singing the melody over an Am / G progression and it sounds odd (maybe because we are used to the song!).

It's a great song, and cleverer than it's two chord progression would suggest.

close2u · November 2013

@thisisguitar

The genius of Lyndsey Buckingham.

thisisguitar · November 2013

@close2u

The best thing I ever read about Lindsey, is that when he couldn't do a Fleetwood Mac tour it took two guitarists to replace him! (I forget where this is from).

thisisguitar · November 2013

Forgot to mention that Unravel by Bjork and Man On The Moon (verse) by REM both use a IV / V progression.

viz · November 2013

Man on the moon is definitely in C Lydian because from the rhythm and melody it's clear that he's landing on the C and that's the root. The C is homed in upon by the very chord structure - C/D/C/C.

But in Dreams, we have F/G/F/G all the way through, so it's basically not in F. Because even though F is the first and last chord in the song, it's unresolved. It only resolves briefly in the chorus when it eventually finds its way home to the Am then moves away again, but all the way through, that Am is implied, by the melody and the accented A notes throughout. That doesn't mean the pianist in close2u's band is right in playing Am chords throughout - it should be F and G only, of course.

It would have been more likely to be in G mixolydian than F Lydian (because F/G/F/G does indeed land on G every bar) but it isn't because it's not in any major key at all, it's in Am.

Clearly though, you're right in saying the F is indeed Lydian and the G is indeed Mixolydian because these scales are consistent with Am (and C major but that's irrelevant because it's not a major song, it's a minor song).

thisisguitar · November 2013

It definitely has a minor tonality Viz, I agree.

I like reading peoples thoughts on the theory threads here (all the threads!), there's always something interesting to ponder or learn from. Glad I joined the community :-)

I always imagine a melody is the thread, tying all the chords together, even when the chords don't technically belong together.

Also, piano players often believe the score is god. They are often wrong!

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