Electronic Drum Kits

stickyfiddle · November 2015

Just musing about these really. I live in a flat so real drums is 100% out of the question. Is it possible to get non-shit electric kits for a reasonable price (i.e. sub £500-ish)? Are they "good enough" to learn on?

Not likely to buy anything any time soon, just mulling options for new instruments and new challenges.

octatonic · November 2015

I have a full blown V Drums kit, it was very much not under £500.

In theory you can learn on anything but the more expensive kits sound better (so you play more), feel better (so you play more) and translate better to real drums (so you learn techniques very close to what you need on a real kit).

The further you go down the product lines to the cheaper stuff the further you get away from this.

You might be ok with that, but I wasn't.

If I could have spent £500 to get something I was happy with I would have.

But I couldn't, so I didn't.

Honestly, buy used if you can- loads of people buy them, don't use them and sell them on.

You get a lot more for your money.

I wouldn't consider a kit that didn't at least have a mesh snare.

The other thing to be aware of is you can get an awful lot done with a practice pad, snare stand and a pari of sticks.

About 50% of my practice is on the full kit and 50% on the practice pad.

IanSavage · November 2015

Buy the non-bottom-of-the-line kit from someone established (i.e. Roland or Yamaha, really, although Traps are quite good) and you won't go far wrong. Mesh head on a dual-zone snare at least I'd recommend, and also dual-zone ride cymbal as a bare minimum (it's also nice to have 'chokable' cymbal pads to better simulate a real kit).

As an aside, I did the electronic-drums-in-flat thing myself and helped neighbour relations by building a little drum riser to go underneath the kit and absorb some of the thumpy-thumpy. Layers of plywood, Rockwool and neoprene seemed to work an absolute treat (Rockwool's a bitch to work with fibres-wise though, and you could do with wrapping the sides of it in some kind of fabric in situ) although I've heard of people getting good results by 'floating' a plywood platform on top of cut-in-half tennis balls.

Drew_TNBD · November 2015

Well... I have some knowledge in this area.

For a decent experience, you're not going to pay any less than £700 brand new - that'd be the Yamaha DTX500 series. They use DTX pads which are a kind of rubber, not mesh. But they feel more realistic than mesh heads to me - mesh heads can be a bit overly bouncy and are easier to play than real heads.

We have a Roland TD-20 at the office however which I play every day, and I do like it. I don't like the VH11 hihat we have, it's pretty awful to be honest. The VH13 is supposed to be much better though.

I've also played the Clavia DDrum stuff, and didn't think much of it. Mesh heads on the one I played but the brain wasn't configurable enough.

hobbio · November 2015

I played a Yam kit for a month or two a few years ago, can't remember the model (it was borrowed) but it had the rubber pads. It felt decent to play, certainly no worse than the cheap ass acoustic kit I'd played previously.

I am by no means a drummer though, I was only messing around with it.

blobb · November 2015

I would say Roland TD4 with mesh heads as minimum. Bear in mind there are two types of Roland Mesh PDx6/8 & PD85/120 (better).

Sound wise you can use the MIDI out into a sample kit package (BFD / Superior drummer / EZ drummer or for free, Sennhesiser do a free sample kit called DrumMica) MIDI samples sound great, the mixer in Superior means you effectively have studio mixing available (Ambient & overhead mics, bleed etc...).

I havent tried the DTX rubber heads but the Roland Mesh are better than the Roland rubber, although on a budget you could probably do rubber toms so longs as you have a mesh snare? I rarely use my TD9 brain anymore since moving to MIDI but you can get VExpression configs (for a small fee) which are basically well programmed set ups for the internal brain.

For under £500 you are looking at ebay 2nd hand, there are examples of completed sales that would have suited, search for TD4.

Here's one I found:
http://tinyurl.com/nu7j6rl

But yes, Drew is correct, for decent feel you need to pay more. A TD9kx2 with vh11 (I like mine ;-)) will cost a lot more but the difference is worth it. Even though mine is now effectively a midi controller, I had fun with the internal kits, especially with the Vexpression kits added. It's more responsive through the brain than midi but Superior is great at Hi Hats, where you notice it.

This is a good Vdrum forum: http://www.vdrums.com/forum

and you can join a decent FB group here: E-Drums World - For all things Electronic Drumming

Love my Vdrums, and play them much more than I ever did my Acoustics, mainly due to noise and tuning. I can get near studio quality drums via midi much easier than miking up my acoustics.

Don't forget you still get a click / stamp / thump from ekits, they are not 100% silent. A good tennis ball riser helps if you have neighbours above and below.

nick...

stickyfiddle · November 2015

Cheers chaps. Message appears very much mesh=good, and cheap=bad.

Will keep an eye on the local used ads.

Teetonetal · December 2015

I have an old Yamaha DTxpress 4 that I got for £300. It's really very good. I also have it hooked up to midi so I can play my NI kits too

I think the rubber pads are fine, I'm totally used to them and don't have any issues changing to a real kit becuase fo the feel.

The biggest issue is space, a real kit is much more spread out than my little express 4.. and that feels quite odd.

Great pieces of kit and way good enough to get drumming on.

Cabicular · December 2015

I went through the traps kit trap and then the Cheaper Roland td kit until I puckered up and bought a 2 box
Of all the ones I tested it was the most responsive to play (the snare being particularly good)
A bit of acoustic underlay under the floor and then some dense foam floor tiles and I'm good to go
It sounds pretty good
The real test is my drummer will play it .. And hates that shit

strumjoughlamps · December 2015

Alesis DM10 range is superb, and if you get the Mylar head kit it is cheap and easy to upgrade to mesh.. shame space meant I couldn't keep mine.. I love my Roland Handsonic though, especially partnered with a Roland snare and kick trigger.

PolarityMan · December 2015

I have had a few culminating in an alesis DM10 and my absoluite favourite purchase of anythign ive been through was a set of these

http://www.drummagazine.com/images/gear/070612-gen16-1.jpg

Drew_TNBD · December 2015

@Polarityman - how do you like the Gen16 sounds?

PolarityMan · December 2015

Well they sound pretty much like real cymbals (cos that's what they are). I leave everything on the amp unit basically flat but tbh it's more the fact that it captures performance better than sensor based cymbals.

So obviously you can do swells, shank sounds different to tip, you can play the bell, the hi hat is fully continuous.

They're really quiet acoustically too.

Drew_TNBD · December 2015

Yeah I remember the Zildjian guys bringing some into the office, but I never got a chance to play them. We did a version of BFD Eco for them which they packaged with their units AFAIK.

Lodious · December 2015

I started on a Roland TD-6 which had all rubber pads and moved to a TD12 with mesh heads. The sounds in both brains are laughable...I don't know if they have got better since then, but I'd be thinking of getting a decent VST if you want to do any recording / listening to something which doesn't sound shit. I'd stick with one of the major brands to make sure the hihat pedal response will map OK to the VST.

The rubber pads are not too different to a practice pad, so there is no reason you can't do a lot of learning with a basic kit.

If your in a flat, the bass drum pedal can generate a fair bit of noise if your not on the ground floor.

vdrums are great fun, with a decent sample library you can stick headphones on and play something which sounds pretty awesome for hours without pissing anyone off and doesn't wreck your hearing. If you want to jam / record it's as easy as just pressing the red button on your sequencer.

Rocker · December 2015

I 'heard' a guy playing an electronic drum kit in a shop during the week. He had headphones on. And he made quite a racket. It may well have been music to him but it sounded like someone hitting timber blocks with a pair of sticks.

Teetonetal · December 2015

Rocker said:

I 'heard' a guy playing an electronic drum kit in a shop during the week. He had headphones on. And he made quite a racket. It may well have been music to him but it sounded like someone hitting timber blocks with a pair of sticks.

Yup, but nothing like playing a real drum kit.

I live in a block of flats.. underneath are old air raid shelter rooms that can be rented, I have one for my music. With the door closed the kits is audible on the staircase, but not in anyone's flat behind a 2nd set of doors.

A full acoustic drum-kit on the other hand... where my band practices is in a sports center again in old air raid shelter rooms (switzerland is full of them) you can hear the drummer whilst you are driving into the car park.

octatonic · December 2015

Rocker said:

I 'heard' a guy playing an electronic drum kit in a shop during the week. He had headphones on. And he made quite a racket. It may well have been music to him but it sounded like someone hitting timber blocks with a pair of sticks.

For most they are a practice tool and they sound good for what they are- the more you spend the more realistic it is.

The problem is that a pro electronic kit is more expensive than a pro acoustic drum kit.

I have both but due to noise I mostly play the electronic kit.

In a perfect world I'd have a soundproof practice room and I'd never need to buy an E kit but I'm glad I've got it.

axisus · December 2015

I got a Roland kit some years ago. It has the mesh heads, which are pretty good, but the hi-hat isn't great and the sounds are poor. If I record I use eZDrummer on my laptop for sounds, which is way better. Why are Roland so poor on the sound side of things???

Rocker · December 2015

@Axisus, pure speculation but I think it is as a result of using a poor quality DAC. To keep costs down and to create a price range of products. I have said it many times before, most DACs use the same chip(s). It is how they are implemented that is the difference. Yet users expect top quality sound from a €750 kit. Hard to see how it can be done TBH...

octatonic · December 2015

axisus said:

I got a Roland kit some years ago. It has the mesh heads, which are pretty good, but the hi-hat isn't great and the sounds are poor. If I record I use eZDrummer on my laptop for sounds, which is way better. Why are Roland so poor on the sound side of things???

The TD30 module has some of the best sounding hihats and they respond really well.

There is quite a bit of tweaking that can be done to adjust sensitivity based on your technique.

What module did you have?

Danny1969 · December 2015

The sounds in the Roland TD25 and TD30 are pretty good. I've done a lot of recording with those, recording as midi, tighting up and then triggering back. Not cheap though

You can use a cheap TD3 kit to trigger Kontakt player, that's what I used to do as the TD3's own sounds in the brain are pretty bad. I used Steven Slate samples but theres loads of good other ones

Lodious · December 2015

IMHO, the Roland sounds are poor because of the small size of the sample library and the fact Roland still think white baseball boots and frost wash jeans are fashionable. A decent sample library will be 10's of GB in size. Sampling of the deacy on the cymbals takes a lot of memory, so Roland use smaller samples and put a bit of reverb on to make them sound OK. Tastes and technology have moved on, but Roland are a long way behind the curve IMHO.

Some of the Platinum Samples libraries sound amazing...good kits, really well recorded using top flight gear and good producers. I don't think Roland will ever compete with this type of thing (not knocking them, it's just not their core business).

axisus · December 2015

octatonic said:

axisus said:

I got a Roland kit some years ago. It has the mesh heads, which are pretty good, but the hi-hat isn't great and the sounds are poor. If I record I use eZDrummer on my laptop for sounds, which is way better. Why are Roland so poor on the sound side of things???

The TD30 module has some of the best sounding hihats and they respond really well.
There is quite a bit of tweaking that can be done to adjust sensitivity based on your technique.
What module did you have?

Can't even remember which module off the top of my head? It's not so much the sensitivity as the sounds. I'd swap the whole lot to just have to eZdrummer sounds built in. It may be a TD9?

Drew_TNBD · December 2015

The best module in my opinion is the 2box. You can craft your own samples with their editor, and it has something like 4GB of space on the unit itself, which is plenty for a fully detailed kit - especially if you only use stereo samples and don't bother with any multichannel stuff.

I'm currently thinking about grabbing our office 2box brain, and crafting some DIY shell triggers, and adding some pads to the setup - for home use. We've got a TD-20 at the office, but I want something at home.

blobb · December 2015

The Roland module is basically a drum synth. So it generates it's own sounds internally. The advantage to me was sensitivity and responsiveness. I use a td9 and the VEX packs were a marked upgrade over the internal pre-sets. With the Vex kits you are basically paying for someone to create pre-sets which sound pretty close to a reference kit, but still keeping the sensitivity intact.

Moving to midi was a revelation, I use SD2 for this and out of the box it responds nearly as well as the vex packs but with so much more realistic sounds. I now use my kit exclusively via midi, so how good the module sounds are is now irrelevant to me. I would say the smart money is spent on a more realistic controller (mesh heads, vh11 or better hi hat).

Once I have the midi notes in SD2 (via cubase in my case) The mixing power of SD comes into play and that's where it really scores over the other VST's I tried.

The 2Box of course is a sample based module which I understand (with a bit of fiddling) you can upload SD or other samples into. But I've heard the hi hat needs some tweaking?

Happy with my TD9 mesh head kit/vh11 into SD2. The VH11, plus a good bass pedal, to me tackles the playability aspect.

One of the plus points for Roland heads is build quality, they can take a load of bashing without falling apart.

I've heard good things about pintech cymbals too.

Drew_TNBD · December 2015

The Roland stuff uses samples as well. They're not drum synths.

blobb · December 2015

I thought they were based on COSM modelling?

octatonic · December 2015

It is sample based.

It has 'behaviour modelling' stuff but that is a layer over the top of the samples and controls how the samples are filtered and respond to playing.

They nailed it with the snare- it feels very similar to a real one.

The toms still have a little way to go imho.

Drew_TNBD · December 2015

As far as I know, the COSM side of things will be strictly limited to the effects processing. But the raw drums will be samples. Similar to how EZ Drummer works, where it has a core chunk of samples that then get processed to sound like different types of drumkits.

octatonic · December 2015

Drew_fx said:

As far as I know, the COSM side of things will be strictly limited to the effects processing. But the raw drums will be samples. Similar to how EZ Drummer works, where it has a core chunk of samples that then get processed to sound like different types of drumkits.

Basically yes.

An example of this is I can change the 22" bass drum to being a 24" bass drum.

It doesn't do much to the sample other than a bit of pitch shifting and a slightly bigger bass eq.

You could do this with any other sample library in Logic but you'd need to know how much to pitch shift it to get a 22" to sound approximately like a 24".

Same with the snares- making a 5" shell into a 6.5" shell has a pitch shift and eq change.

You can add/subtract the amount of snare effect you want- it is basically just a wet/dry control but renamed as 'snare amount'.

None of this is rocket science- what Roland do well here is being able to present it in 'drummer language'.

It makes the experience a bit more like using a regular kit but in effect it is a simple bunch of parameters that are changed.

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