Octaves

Phil_aka_Pip · November 2013

viz said:

It's a bit like the word decimate meaning destroy, but I guess literally it means divide into 10 parts, because we arbritarily seem to have 10 digits.

to a point yes. a roman commander who decimated his legion as a punishment for poor performance killed every tenth man. it was a dreadful punishment but people use the word today to imply almost total destruction, whereas it actually means 10% destruction.

viz · November 2013

Ah ha! YLSNED

Phil_aka_Pip · November 2013

octatonic said:

Not if you understand why they are called pythagorean intervals and what Mr Pythagorus was doing with his string.

If you are saying that the 8 notes that make up the subdivision of the space between the whole length of the string and half its length are derived from his harmonics, yes I agree. You collect up these partials, divide their frequencies down, and you've got a set of notes with frequencies between f and 2f which make up a scale.

frankus · November 2013

We don't need other words!

Back in the 90s Sesame Street did a show about Big Bird called Roy - who was fed up with being called Big Bird ... because he was a big bird ... he chose the name Roy.

It tanked.

Why did it tank? Three year olds don't understand that Big Bird and big bird are two different things, they thought Big Bird wanted to be a person and it was distressing to them.

As adults we should know that words have domains and contexts.

Personally I think we need fewer words and more thoughts, ideas and actions being un-named - unshared except through experience.

The internet has fooled a lot of people into thinking that knowing a word is sufficient and enables that person as much as a person who's experienced a thing.

Ever known someone who's not got a grasp of phonetics and says stuff comically wrong with utmost conviction? Turning the diurnal in dyearnall? Words enable conceit and that's not great for learning.

viz said:

It's a bit like the word decimate meaning destroy, but I guess literally it means divide into 10 parts, because we arbritarily seem to have 10 digits.

Decimation was the punishment a Roman Legion suffered if it lost in battle, the men were lined up and every tenth man was killed by his companions. If a Roman army lost, automatically, decimation was it's fate. If a Roman soldier returned and told someone "we were decimated" it means much much more than "we were defeated". Look how the impact of that word has died. He killed one of his own unit - think about it... someone unfamiliar wouldn't be told the full detail "well we lost the battle and afterwards we were forced to kill our friend or we'd all be killed".

frankus · November 2013

daveww said:

Yes the word octave is based on eight but what it actually is has nothing to do with eight. It based on frequencies that occur when the string is halved. Isn't it lol

Most things we know have 7 qualities? measures of time, colours (who really sees indigo and blue?), sins, measures of distances ... the value seven is based on a principle that our brains can only differentiate a small number of things.

I could dig out the research if you're interested, if you really must know.

Six is the norm. So Octave is the 8th note - considered the same as the root note - leaving 6 other notes.

ChrisMusic · November 2013

Other misnomers; October is the tenth month and December is the twelfth month despite OCT meaning 8 and DEC meaning ten, we only have two egotistical Roman Emperors to blame for that. Thanks to Julius and Augustus for stealing the best part of the year, in the northern hemisphere at least, and naming it after themselves.

Not the first time ego or self interest has over ruled and damaged a simple and effective system, and certainly will not be the last time either. Challenge and review is healthy, and motivations always need questioning.

So when was the last time you questioned the accepted orthodoxies?

Phil_aka_Pip · November 2013

Once upon a time the new year didn't begin in January, so October would have been the 8th month.

ChrisMusic · November 2013

An octave is basically 7 'unique' notes returning to the eighth or first note (a duality) which is a half/double frequency repeat of the previous first note - ie, elusive un-named concept we are looking at here, (or should I have said inappropriately named?).

A simple word for it would have made the preceding sentence both shorter and clearer, and probably less ambiguous.

Obviously the octave concept refers to the eighth note returning / closing the circle, and becoming the first again, a kind of transformation, and assumes a surrounding ecosystem of western music orthodoxy.

Major scale used in western music, and its immediate derivatives, are counted in base seven, ie 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1~1, 1~2, 1~3, 1~4, 1~5, 1~6, 1~7, 2~1, 2~2, etc

A conceptual numeric problem here is that the 1st series if notionally preceded by zero and the second series is preceded by one (etc) a confusing part of numerical notation and another concept overdue for revision (along with a lot of other mathematical inconsistencies)

So our octave or supposed eight note system is actually looking more like a seven note system (one that uses base-7 math)

With thanks to @frankus for pointing that out earlier.

ChrisMusic · November 2013

frankus said: Decimation was the punishment a Roman Legion suffered if it lost in battle, the men were lined up and every tenth man was killed by his companions. If a Roman army lost, automatically, decimation was it's fate. If a Roman soldier returned and told someone "we were decimated" it means much much more than "we were defeated". Look how the impact of that word has died. He killed one of his own unit - think about it... someone unfamiliar wouldn't be told the full detail "well we lost the battle and afterwards we were forced to kill our friend or we'd all be killed".

That is very a disturbing thought, and not just for modern minds either. I knew the previous explanation, but this expansion is far darker.

An intense negative motivator that elevates death in battle as a preferable option to being vanquished. I presume it is a logistical problem for the army too, being in a vulnerable position with demotivated (read "head fucked") troops now depleted in numbers and needing reinforcing with trained soldiers back to the full Centurions century.

Morbid fascination gets the better of me, do you know how the selection was made?

ChrisMusic · November 2013

frankus said: Most things we know have 7 qualities? measures of time, colours (who really sees indigo and blue?), sins, measures of distances ... the value seven is based on a principle that our brains can only differentiate a small number of things. Six is the norm.

I believe that many Native American cultures have very simple quantitative concepts, along the lines of - one, two, three and many.

Asked if he has a lot of grandchildren an elder will probably reply "many".

It is an apt concept if you consider life through their eyes, our level of detail is just superfluous in that context.

ChrisMusic · November 2013

frankus said: As adults we should know that words have domains and contexts.
Personally I think we need fewer words and more thoughts, ideas and actions being un-named - unshared except through experience.
The internet has fooled a lot of people into thinking that knowing a word is sufficient and enables that person as much as a person who's experienced a thing.

A very interesting perspective, and with merit.

Words are just a building block for communication, and need some solidity just like their baked clay counterparts.
The human need to analyse and compartmentalise is part of us. We seek clarification and certainty. Maybe religion is an expression of that.

But surely the ultimate outcomes of ambiguity and misunderstanding are the conflicts we see around us, whether that is misunderstood motivations within a family, or the larger conflicts which inundate the news. Yes, I know the majority have different motivators. Is that the responsibility of words, or the domains and contexts you referred to?

Some make their livings from that ambiguity, whether that's in the humour that often accompanies it, or the chasm of misinterpretation that casual use, or historical change, elicits.

Is the answer in tighter more defined words, better authorship, or looser more fluid use of language?

I really don't know, but language should never be 'pickled in aspic', it is a living, malleable and evolving entity, with all that brings.

frankus said: Ever known someone who's not got a grasp of phonetics and says stuff comically wrong with utmost conviction?

Oh, and yes that's me too, I get it wrong far too often, amusing and embarrassing, sometimes in equal measure.

frankus · November 2013

Not all ambiguity is equivocation: ambiguity can encapsulate actual duality.

timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes can mean:

I fear the Greeks even when they bring gifts.
I fear the Greeks especially when they bring gifts.
I fear the Greeks and the gifts they bring.

..and the author meant all of them!

Decimation:

Language is a tool so it has applications and limitations, the ability to identify those limitations is inexpressably valuable.

What I respect most is experience and the ability to extemporise - which (in this instance) makes me question the need for a neologism in a paradigm invented ancient Greece (excellent inventors, observers and wordsmiths).

Phil_aka_Pip · November 2013

Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!

ChrisMusic · November 2013

A little food for thought - Dozenalists of the world unite! Rise up against the tyranny of ten!

http://www.theguardian.com/science/alexs-adventures-in-numberland/2012/dec/12/dozenalists-world-unite-tyranny-ten

All will become clear (maybe) in my next post

ChrisMusic · November 2013

The mode is simply the number which appears most often: maths definition. (no not this post)

ChrisMusic · November 2013

Maybe we should consider re-adopting the "octave" as a dozenal system, there are twelve frets and twelve discrete steps or semitones in an octave after all.

Note that the twelfth fret is the "octave", or the "X" word we are looking for, but that is in effect the first note of the new octave (or 13th note), the 0th fret (nut) being the root or first note of that "octave", (we really do accept confusing systems far too easily, don't we?).

Maybe the "X" word for this could be Xii in deference to the Roman numeral system - pronounced something like "kzee" (think Chinese pronunciation).

No one can say we are not culturally inclusive here.

Ah, the Roman system of numerals, clever, but with which modern maths would be a complete shite, thank god for the Indian numerals and their very dodgy concept of zero, and the Arabs for bringing that enlightenment to us.

So maybe that elusive new word could be "xii", or even "zii" or "kzee", it has a fairly logical basis. (just a thought and a neologism)

(fair do's, neologism is a new word in my universe, so xii creates a balance for it, with thanks to @frankus for leaving me scrambling for the dictionary, again ! )

daveww · November 2013

How come all you guys have jobs where you can do this stuff at work? Some entertaining stuff here but I can't keep up

ChrisMusic · November 2013

Just an "additional" thought, (yes I know, pun intended)

If you use fingers and thumbs separately, then counting in base-8, or base-16, or base-24, or even base-32 becomes quite simplez too !

And base-8 or base-16 brings things more in line with computer binary so it may have some merit also.

If you really push the boat out then you can do base-16 on the fingers of one hand, and base-1024 is possible with two hands.

Add a bend of the fingers and base-256 comes up on the fingers of one hand.

Just imagine what we could achieve with the addition of toes to count on too ! (probably falling over, in addition to the brain in complete meltdown !!! ) Do not go there.

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