Chasing Tone

ChrisMusic · August 2013

Chasing Tone - a quest for life?

How do you see "tone" ?

What do you feel are the main contributors to that elusive "perfect sound signature" ?

A healthy open debate to follow I hope, it's a big subject - thanks for your perspectives

John_A · August 2013

It really is 99% in the fingers, I've seen guitarists with a squire strat and a peavey bandit that sounded amazing, and others with mega gear that sounded awful. Doesn't stop me from trying to buy 'tone' but the things I play that sound good are the things I play well.

elkay · August 2013

The wood used, nut/bridge material, strings, and manner of consruction are the obvious physical attributes, but there are also the imponderables like mood, temperament and what you had for breakfast, which are more difficult to pin down. Ultimately, many would say that it's in the fingers. Put any guitar in Tommy Emmanuel's hands and he'll sound like Tommy Emmanuel. Having said that, vast amounts are spent in striving to 'improve' tone, whilst, in my view, the simplest, quickest and cheapest way of shaping tone is all too often overlooked, and that is the use of picks of varying size, shape and thickness. Most guitarists I know have their one favorite, which they'll stick with regardless, whereas merely by using a heavy pick you could bring out the mellow sweetness so loved by jazzers, or open up the sound with increased sparkle and clarity by using a thin gauge pick. At the end of the day, someone will come along and kill all arguments at a single stroke with the observation that tone is subjective.

ddlooping · August 2013

Unless you're playing solo, I consider a good "tone" whatever works, mixed with the rest of the band, in the context of a song.

dindude · August 2013

I don't quite buy into the 99% fingers thing, I think it misses the point. Here's why: put a crap guitar and amp into the hands of a great player and they will make it sing for sure, but sing with relative crap tone that is. Likewise an inexperienced player won't get the best out of a high end rig, but their limitations are still there with a squire and a peavey amp. Anyone who thinks that buying quality gear makes them better is derranged, doesn't mean that a player doesn't want the best gear they can afford though. I find it really inspiring to play with a quality guitar or amp, it's just tools, but great tools are better than average tools.

RocknRollDave · August 2013

What constitutes a good tone is, of course, subjective, but there are a few things I have observed/ learned/ been shown throughout my own tone quest that apply to the kind of tone I am looking for:

Tune up and stay in tune.
Seriously, most beginners sound bad mostly because they are out of tune rather than actually playing the basics wrong.

Strings - replacing worn strings more regularly has had a major impact on tuning and tone, for me.

Technique. I don't know that I agree with the "99% in your fingers" brigade (after all, why have several different guitars then?) but I DO know that a clean technique with clear picking and accurate bending is going to make me sound better and allow notes to ring better etc.

Learn what different settings do - I have had some major tonal breakthroughs with playing around with different amp settings and listening to the differences. Don't always stick to your "go to" settings, enjoy twiddling your knobs.

Gain - Turning down the gain paid dividends for me

Compressor - Also a major breakthrough. Some people don't "get" them, some people don't need them...In the right context for me it has made a huge difference.

Enjoy different guitars - Don't expect to get everything out of one guitar, enjoy and exploit the differences.

Dave_Mc · August 2013

nah not really. i mean i have lots of gear, but it's all for a reason. i don't have 50 very slightly different tubescreamers, for example, as that can get silly.

Obviously if you're using unsuitable gear for what you want to play, that's different. There's a difference between obsessing about minutiae (or worse, seeing stuff that isn't there) and buying different gear for a genuine reason.

Lixarto · August 2013

I think it is mainly in the fingers.

At least two people whose opinions I trust (one a musician - not guitar - and one not musical) told me I sound the same no matter what guitar I'm playing. Hey ho.

Dave_Mc · August 2013

When I wave my fingers around in mid-air I don't get any sound at all, though?

Maybe I'm doing it wrong
:-O

Seriously, though, I agree that the player does make the biggest difference. That's pretty self-evident, if you ask me.

monquixote · August 2013

I like dicking about with pedals and stuff, but ultimately I really only ever sound like me.

Doesn't stop me GASing though.

ESBlonde · August 2013

Agree with the jist of those posting above. One aspect of tone is understanding how you react or more particularly how pieces of gear interact. I bought a particular echo unit many moons ago and discovered that by mismatching the output from it into the valve amp I got a different range of response from each that I could utilise. That and a thorough understanding of the guitars own controls and the impact they had. Even without specific bits of gear or possibly your favourite guitar it is possible to get back near that preferred tonal response which from experience works in context.

John_A · August 2013

Dave_Mc said:

When I wave my fingers around in mid-air I don't get any sound at all, though?

Maybe I'm doing it wrong
:-O

Seriously, though, I agree that the player does make the biggest difference. That's pretty self-evident, if you ask me.

No you're doing it right, no one can ever tell you it sounds bad!!

TTony · August 2013

Lixarto said:

I think it is mainly in the fingers.

At least two people whose opinions I trust (one a musician - not guitar - and one not musical) told me I sound the same no matter what guitar I'm playing. Hey ho.

I think that's largely true.

To me, "in the fingers" means your whole playing style - your fretting technique, how you strum/pick, the sort of stuff you play, your "signature" runs or chord changes (etc).

It's why you recognise a particular player when they're playing rather than saying that's xxx (insert name of the particular player) playing any specific guitar.

Skipped · August 2013

Fingers are the biggest factor.
I used to be in a band with a guy who had a beautiful 60's Fender Strat. But he lusted after my Gibson - and assumed that it was the key to my sound ( I had no idea either way - I was just a kid...)
So we swopped for one night and he was a bit fed up that the Gibson sounded totally different is his hands.

But other than fingers?
Some of you will not like this. After considering the matter for several decades I come to the conclusion that the seach for tone will lead to Old Wood. But it is not as simple as that. For example, most of the 70's Norlin Gibsons I pick up sound worse then the Historics made in the last few years. But (all these comments are about Gibsons) the 50s and 60s guitars are top of the tree for me and it has nothing to do with myth, rumour,collectability or anything else. And I think they were in a different class when they were brand new*. So, for me , discussions about Old Wood need qualification.
The Historics are getting very good (based on the 2012 guitars I have played) but even people who go crazy for these guitars are willing to admit that the closer they get to the originals - the better they are.

Guess what that tells us about the originals......

* People used to talk about "playing in" a new guitar but the phrase is rarely heard now. Why is that? I think it might have something to do with Plek Machines.

Dave_Mc · August 2013

John_A said:

Dave_Mc said:

When I wave my fingers around in mid-air I don't get any sound at all, though?

Maybe I'm doing it wrong
:-O

Seriously, though, I agree that the player does make the biggest difference. That's pretty self-evident, if you ask me.

No you're doing it right, no one can ever tell you it sounds bad!!

hehe

Actually it arguably sounds better than when I'm playing a guitar :-w

GuitarMonkey · August 2013

Lixarto said:

I think it is mainly in the fingers.

At least two people whose opinions I trust (one a musician - not guitar - and one not musical) told me I sound the same no matter what guitar I'm playing. Hey ho.

I think (to some extent) it's in the head.

You, the player, might notice subtle (or not so subtle) differences but you can bet that 99% of your audience won't.

bertie · August 2013

ChrisMusic said:

Chasing Tone - a quest for life?

depends how fast he runs

ChrisMusic · August 2013

Thank you to everyone for your responses and perspectives, that does make interesting reading.

I'm not sure if I should have posted this here in "Guitars", or have put it in, or maybe to move it to, the "Off Topic" section to get to all of our 400 fellow FretBoarders? BTW fantastic job by the team on making our new home here, testimony to how many we now have in the FB community.

On a more philosophical note:

this appears to be a bit like the fractal Mandlebrot set; the more you learn and think you understand, the more the picture opens up to you, and the more there is to explore and understood.

So in a way Bertie may be right, the more you chase "tone" the more subtle nuances are revealed, and a never ending journey ensues.

What do you think?

There are obviously many aspects to making up "tone", how about kicking off the next section with:

Your views on how instrument construction and "tone wood" choices affect the final sound and character.

Thanks for your replies and perspectives, much appreciated.

scrumhalf · August 2013

Dave_Mc said:

When I wave my fingers around in mid-air I don't get any sound at all, though?

That's because your air guitar needs an air amplifier.

mike_l · August 2013

When photek and myself had a jam/gear test session the other evening, we played each other's guitars, and mine sounded totally different when he played them as to when I played them, even on the same (flat-out) settings......

@scrumhalf air guitar also needs air F/X for a full air guitar session.......

Chuffola · August 2013

I pretty much always sound like me, too, no matter what guitar I play.

Lucky, then, that I sound like the perfect blend of Gilmour, Lifeson and Django Reinhardt.

Barney · August 2013

i think its mostly in the fingers if you have a decent tone to start off with...it dosnt have to be top class (expensive) gear just good enough the rest in my opinion is in the fingers ...unless of course iff you want to play extreme metal on the clean channel of a fender twin..iff you know what i mean.......i was playing in a club a while back and a friend of mine..a guitarist.. heard the last tune as he was coming down the road ..he came in and we had finished our first set and he said....i couldnt half tell it was you playing by the sound of that boogie and overwater.......that night i wasnt , it was a strat and hot rod deluxe...

Lixarto · August 2013

GuitarMonkey said: I think (to some extent) it's in the head.

You, the player, might notice subtle (or not so subtle) differences but you can bet that 99% of your audience won't.

Yes indeed - perhaps important to remember when we're in guitar shops.

dindude · August 2013

I think there is obviously a huge amount of stylistic carryover when you play different gear and it this what makes people sound the same when playing different rigs.

But I think we would all agree that there are defined characteristics of various guitars (Les Paul vs Strat to state an obvious starting point) and amps as well and these are going to have an influence too.

At the risk of receiving another face palm or too, 99% in the fingers is too simplistic, 99% of your style and playing characteristics maybe, but tone, I'm not so sure. I sound like me through my Yamaha Thr thingy, but I don't think anyone would argue that my main rig has better "tone".

Dave_Mc · August 2013

^ If you ask me, the sensible way to do it is to separate the two. Accept that there is "gear tone" (i.e. certain kit sounds a certain way) and "finger tone" (the player). Obviously there's some overlap and one can affect the other, but I agree that acting like either is the only thing that matters is silly.

scrumhalf said:

Dave_Mc said:

When I wave my fingers around in mid-air I don't get any sound at all, though?

That's because your air guitar needs an air amplifier.

LOL, I knew I was doing something wrong.

Fretwired · August 2013

Also remember that if you're listing to a classic tone on a record then it's probably been processed during the mixing process, especially if it's been recorded by a first class producer in a big studio like Abbey Road. The Classic Album TV shows are quite illuminating in this regard - check out the Steely Dan one with all the various guitar takes they rejected. There are some isolated recordings of Page's tone on the web. They sound like a wasp in a bottle but work perfectly in the song mix.

As to the fingers I think it comes down to what you play - having worked with two world class guitarists I'd say it was true of one but not the other. It's obviously key playing an acoustic and clean/crunch electric, but IMHO the importance diminishes as more gain/distortion and tone sucking pedals are added.

digitalscream · August 2013

Dave_Mc said:

^ If you ask me, the sensible way to do it is to separate the two. Accept that there is "gear tone" (i.e. certain kit sounds a certain way) and "finger tone" (the player). Obviously there's some overlap and one can affect the other, but I agree that acting like either is the only thing that matters is silly.

Yup. For example, if that were true Satriani could make an Argos Strat copy through a Stagg 10W combo sound like his sig Ibby through a JVM; with the best will in the world, that's not going to happen. He might still sound recognisably Satch (probably, in fact), but that's style and not tone.

Yes, it's an extreme example, but it just shows that it simply isn't true. I tend to treat everything in the signal path (from the fingers to the speakers) as the instrument; change any one component, and it's going to affect the tone. Some bits more than others, of course - a cable change isn't going to have as much effect as a different amp or cab - but the whole "99% in the fingers" is pretty much rubbish.

scrumhalf · August 2013

mike_l said:

@scrumhalf air guitar also needs air F/X for a full air guitar session.......

Not for us traditionalists...

Dave_Mc · August 2013

digitalscream said:

Dave_Mc said:

^ If you ask me, the sensible way to do it is to separate the two. Accept that there is "gear tone" (i.e. certain kit sounds a certain way) and "finger tone" (the player). Obviously there's some overlap and one can affect the other, but I agree that acting like either is the only thing that matters is silly.

Yup. For example, if that were true Satriani could make an Argos Strat copy through a Stagg 10W combo sound like his sig Ibby through a JVM; with the best will in the world, that's not going to happen. He might still sound recognisably Satch (probably, in fact), but that's style and not tone.

Yes, it's an extreme example, but it just shows that it simply isn't true. I tend to treat everything in the signal path (from the fingers to the speakers) as the instrument; change any one component, and it's going to affect the tone. Some bits more than others, of course - a cable change isn't going to have as much effect as a different amp or cab - but the whole "99% in the fingers" is pretty much rubbish.

Yeah. I think there's a video on youtube where satch plays through beginner gear. he's still a badass, of course, but he doesn't sound as good as through his own rig.

And just to clarify, I totally agree that being a good player is important, in case it looks like I'm arguing the opposite point- I'm not. Just either extreme position is kinda missing the point, if you ask me.

paulmapp8306 · August 2013

I think "its all in the fingers" can be mis-understood.

Im always told - when people hear recordings - that they can tell its me. NOT because of the actual sound but by the style. For instance, I always have the same bend technique, I have my favourite little lick patterns, and my timing/phrasing always comes through as me.

However, TONALLY - I sound totally different on different guitars, or amps. Its why I have 5 guitars. A Tele with 50s PUs, a Strat with 60s. A 335 type with low Output PAFS, a PRS (cos I dont like LPs) with higher OP PAFS, and another with higher output ceramics. The last one doesnt get used much as I dont really play that kind of stuff - and when I do I can use the other PRS, BUT I love the look/colour of the thing, and cant seem to part with her. I REALLY should, and replace her with either an out and out HH or HSH Floyd loaded metal guitar OR a nice something with P90s. Still thats off the point.

A great guitarist can get the best out of cheap gear for sure - but wont sound as good as he does with great gear. A crap guitarist will always sound crap, and 90% of the time the reason for doing so on great gear is because they cant dial that gear in. If they could they would sound better tonally ..... but still play crap

. What it would do is inspire them to play and learn more - leading to becoming a better guitarist.

Well - thats my thoughts anyway.

mike_l · August 2013

scrumhalf said:

mike_l said:

@scrumhalf air guitar also needs air F/X for a full air guitar session.......
Not for us traditionalists...

How can you pull air guitar air wah faces then?

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