melodic minor scales made of chords

seany65 · July 2015

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

octatonic · July 2015

In the classical genre the melodic minor has naturalised notes descending. In jazz that doesn't really happen though.

frankus · July 2015

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

GuyBoden · July 2015

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

It's just a Major scale with it's third note flatten.

C Melodic Minor: C D Eb F G A B

IMHO, after the Major Modes the Melodic Minor Modes are the best.

GuyBoden · July 2015

Simple, but very cool sounding Melodic Minor chord progression:

Using "C Melodic Minor": C D Eb F G A B

Chord 1: C Eb G
Chord 2: C F A
Chord 3: D F B
Chord 4: Eb G B
Chord 5: Eb A C
Chord 6: F A D
Chord 7: G B D
Chord 8: G C Eb

frankus · July 2015

GuyBoden said:

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

I was always taught that was known as the "jazz minor"

GuyBoden · July 2015

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

I was always taught that was known as the "jazz minor"

"Jazz minor" is old Jazzer terminology.

The altered Ascending and Descending Melodic Minor scale is still taught in Classical Music theory.

smigeon · July 2015

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Please can you elucidate??

seany65 · July 2015

Thanks for the replies.

So in Classical, those chords would be natural when descending, in Jazz they'd generally not be naturalised.

Got it.

frankus · July 2015

smigeon said:

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Please can you elucidate??

Sure C melodic minor - C D Eb F G A B C - you already know C major contains G dominant GBDF. Well it also contains F dominant FACEb - I generally characterise all collections of notes as chords that describe them... pick two chords next to each other and you get all the notes.

This is a concept explored completely in Wayne Krantz book An Improvisor's OS. Chords and Scales are pretty much the same thing expressed harmonically and melodically, the idea of giving them different names is a differentiation guaranteed to make guitar teachers money

Scales are ladders and the melodic minor is really the only scale or mode it's worth thinking of in this way because it's different ascending and descending and the reason it is, is because of the cadence produced.

It's like a USB key - you try and plug it in, it doesn't fit, you turn it, it still doesn't fit, you turn it again (supposedly back to the first position) and it now fits.

GuyBoden said:

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

The modern/contemporary use of the Melodic minor scale, does not alter it's notes ascending and descending.

I was always taught that was known as the "jazz minor"

"Jazz minor" is old Jazzer terminology.

The altered Ascending and Descending Melodic Minor scale is still taught in Classical Music theory.

Why would I want to make a word mean less than it does? It's not like paraphernalia (which used to mean a woman's possession and now just means a person's possessions) where it could be more encompassing, this isn't repurposing a word to be less specific - this is repurposing a word to have less meaning.

Hey maybe I'm not keeping with the times.

The melodic minor has probably meant one thing for too long, why shouldn't we make it mean half of what it meant and lose the only label we have for a common melodic device?

Contrast: That's the melodic minor. With: It's the melodic minor except when playing root to the seventh degree or sixth degree below flatten the note being landed on... when it can be thought to be etc etc.

It's probably great that it now means less, so you can then use more words to explain it's common occurrences using more words than was previously necessary, that's just super for you.

"Old jazzer term" LOL - this needing to categorize nomenclature is so you

Modellista · July 2015

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Do you mean a tone apart? (G and F)

I wonder if someone can answer a question for me. I've always thought of the b3 and the b7 to be the "minor"-sounding notes. Leaving all the rest unflattened. What do you call that scale? The natural minor has a b6 (I don't like the sound of a b6 and it doesn't play well with 6 chords), the harmonic minor is even further away with a b6 and what I would call major (unflattened) 7, and the melodic minor, as per here, also has a major 7. What would one call 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8? Why would I even use anything else? Isn't that "none more minor"?!

Modellista · July 2015

Just to clarify, I do actually like a b6 / #5, but more often as a "special effect" rather than normal use in a minor context.

thomasross20 · July 2015

What I want to know is what is best to learn.

I've got the major scale modes down but it's been a slog.

Whole tone and diminished, melodic & harmonic minor.... What should be next?

I'd rather not learn them all given I have a 9-5 job lol...

Just for background, you know the harmonic minor was concocted so you can have a V7 - Im (like V7 - Imaj in major scales).

Melodic minor is there to give a maj7 to root transition to make the lead-in nicer.

frankus · July 2015

modellista said:

frankus said:

I always think of it as two dominant chords a semitone apart.

Do you mean a tone apart? (G and F)

so you spotted the deliberate mistake then ... $:\$ ">

I wonder if someone can answer a question for me. I've always thought of the b3 and the b7 to be the "minor"-sounding notes. Leaving all the rest unflattened. What do you call that scale? The natural minor has a b6 (I don't like the sound of a b6 and it doesn't play well with 6 chords), the harmonic minor is even further away with a b6 and what I would call major (unflattened) 7, and the melodic minor, as per here, also has a major 7. What would one call 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8? Why would I even use anything else? Isn't that "none more minor"?!

That's the dorian mode.

It's the least minor of the minors except possibly the melodic minor. (IMO)

viz · July 2015

seany65 said:

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

No it's G B D and F A C, so they're both major triads not diminished chords.

Just for the sake of I don't know what, we should really say melodic minor (ascending) is natural minor with a sharpened 6th and 7th, rather than major with a flattened 3rd. I know it requires more effort to say but it sort of helps with understanding why it's called what it it's called, also with the point about it ascending sharply and descending naturally, and also with its relationship with the harmonic minor scale. Don't shoot me.

viz · July 2015

If anyone's interested in why melodic minor has to have raised 6 and 7 ascending and naturalled descending (in classical music), here's a really good example demonstrating it - you get that strong dominant feel on the way up, whereas you don't need it on the resolutions on the way down.

thomasross20 · July 2015

Guys! Seriously. I know it's only a few notes changes but do you all remember the modes of both the melodic and harmonic minor? If you know the scale over the whole fretboard then you pretty much know the modes anyway... Which do you use most often, if at all?

I actually quite like playing diminished and "whole-tone" chords so should really start thinking about incorporating this into my lead playing a bit more. I don't want to waste time learning little bits of this scale or that - I want the core fundamentals down, only stuff that I WILL use in a practical situation so that my focus remains true.

viz · July 2015

Yep but I don't use the lydian augmented or half diminished, and only use the dominant of the harmonic minor (which is what it's really for, as Yngwie has proven OFTEN)

carlos · July 2015

thomasross20 said:

Guys! Seriously. I know it's only a few notes changes but do you all remember the modes of both the melodic and harmonic minor? If you know the scale over the whole fretboard then you pretty much know the modes anyway... Which do you use most often, if at all?
I actually quite like playing diminished and "whole-tone" chords so should really start thinking about incorporating this into my lead playing a bit more. I don't want to waste time learning little bits of this scale or that - I want the core fundamentals down, only stuff that I WILL use in a practical situation so that my focus remains true.

I never bothered learning the harm minor and its modes. One of those I want to get to eventually but not for now. I don't like the m3 interval in scales $:\$ The only mode that's cool off that is the Phrygian Dominant. The rest there are better options elsewhere. My humble opinion. Overall, I like the symmetrical scales better for improvisation, and between mel minor and major modes I can cover the rest.

GuyBoden · July 2015

thomasross20 said:

Guys! Seriously. I know it's only a few notes changes but do you all remember the modes of both the melodic and harmonic minor? If you know the scale over the whole fretboard then you pretty much know the modes anyway... Which do you use most often, if at all?
I actually quite like playing diminished and "whole-tone" chords so should really start thinking about incorporating this into my lead playing a bit more. I don't want to waste time learning little bits of this scale or that - I want the core fundamentals down, only stuff that I WILL use in a practical situation so that my focus remains true.

As you probably already know, learning scales is the easy part, but being able to apply specific notes within the scale to songs is the difficult part. It take time and training your ears.

I know the Melodic Minor Modes in most common keys over the whole fretboard, it took a years of practice, my advice is to take your time and learn/hear it well.

Using Melodic Minor Modes with extra added note(s) creates some good sounds too. Try adding a natural fifth in Mode 7 (altered scale) for b9 dom chords.

thomasross20 · July 2015

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?

carlos · July 2015

Melodic minor for me (you didn't ask me). All the 4 triads in there, the alt scale which is useful in loads of situations, "jazz" minor mode, and so on.

thomasross20 · July 2015

I'm asking everybody, and thanks

Sorry to derail the thread.
I'd rather learn one than both.
Think I prefer harmonic minor sound - melodic was always a tad bland to me and never knew if it wanted to be major or minor (you know what I mean)

GuyBoden · July 2015

thomasross20 said:

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?

Melodic Minor Modes.

viz · July 2015

Well they have different purposes. Harmonic minor is supposed to set the construct and chordal (harmonic) possibilities in a minor piece, mainly to allow an effective dominant (V) situation, so for a V chord you can still play a major triad or a dominant 7 chord, with its major 3rd still being the tonic's leading note. And still retaining the VI note as a minor 6th, so you maintain the minor quality of the piece (so for example the subdominant IV chord is still a minor triad). So, if you're in A minor, the V chord can still be "dominant", ie have a major triad of E G# B, which can then resolve to the tonic, and the IV chord is a minor triad of D F A.

Melodic minor is to allow melodic writing, so when going up to the tonic, you can raise the 7th (often implying that you are temporarily in the dominant chord), and you also raise the 6th to avoid that awkward augmented 2nd; but on the way down, you are generally resolving down to the bottom of the scale, so you don't need the raised 7th, or therefore the raised 6th. So going down the minor scale with raised 7th and 6th was incredibly rare in classical music unless still over the dominant chord, and even pieces in Dorian with just the raised 6th alone were unusual.

This is how harmony and melody were created in the baroque period, and the 2 devices were named harmonic minor and melodic minor for those reasons.

seany65 · July 2015

viz said:

seany65 said:

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

No it's G B D and F A C, so they're both major triads not diminished chords.

Just for the sake of I don't know what, we should really say melodic minor (ascending) is natural minor with a sharpened 6th and 7th, rather than major with a flattened 3rd. I know it requires more effort to say but it sort of helps with understanding why it's called what it it's called, also with the point about it ascending sharply and descending naturally, and also with its relationship with the harmonic minor scale. Don't shoot me.

According to a book called "Complete Learn to play Rhythm Guitar", on page 93 :

"Melodic minor scale tone chords..."

It then gives a description of the chord changes which come as a result of the sharpened 6th degree,

"chord ii is now minor instead of major, chord iv is major instead of minor and chord vi is diminished instead of major. These changes are brought about by the raising of the 6th degree of the scale from F to F#"

Then it gives a stave with the chords on it :

"Am Bm C+ D E F#dim G#dim Am"

This is the A minor melodic scale. The book goes from the C Major scale, (with chords on a stave), A minor natural scale (with chords on a stave), A minor harmonic scale (with chords on a stave) and finally to the A minor melodic scale as above.

That's what I've been going with.

thomasross20 · July 2015

GuyBoden said:

thomasross20 said:

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?

Melodic Minor Modes.

Agree, I wouldn't learn a scale without learning the modes.

Good post, viz.

I know it's lazy but I'd rather learn a few tools (scales) really well rather than a whole bunch of scales semi-ok. How often do you guys use these scales in actuality (gigs etc)?

viz · July 2015

seany65 said:

viz said:

seany65 said:

Just a quick question about Harmonic minor scales made of chords.

One of the scales I'm learning is A minor melodic, and I've got a book which shows the scale using chords, has F#dim and G#dim.

As far as I'm aware melodic scales of single notes use # on the way up and naturals on the way down.

Am I right in thinking that the F#dim and the G#dim chords should be Fdim and Gdim on the way down?

No it's G B D and F A C, so they're both major triads not diminished chords.

Just for the sake of I don't know what, we should really say melodic minor (ascending) is natural minor with a sharpened 6th and 7th, rather than major with a flattened 3rd. I know it requires more effort to say but it sort of helps with understanding why it's called what it it's called, also with the point about it ascending sharply and descending naturally, and also with its relationship with the harmonic minor scale. Don't shoot me.

According to a book called "Complete Learn to play Rhythm Guitar", on page 93 :

"Melodic minor scale tone chords..."

It then gives a description of the chord changes which come as a result of the sharpened 6th degree,

"chord ii is now minor instead of major, chord iv is major instead of minor and chord vi is diminished instead of major. These changes are brought about by the raising of the 6th degree of the scale from F to F#"

Then it gives a stave with the chords on it :

"Am Bm C+ D E F#dim G#dim Am"

This is the A minor melodic scale. The book goes from the C Major scale, (with chords on a stave), A minor natural scale (with chords on a stave), A minor harmonic scale (with chords on a stave) and finally to the A minor melodic scale as above.

That's what I've been going with.

Yes correct, but you specifically asked whether the chord scales are also dim chords on the way down, when they are based off G and F, rather than G# and F#, and the answer is no, they are both major triads because, as you correctly said, on the way down, IF we're talking classical music, the 6th and 7th aren't sharpened, so it's the natural minor, so the chords are FAC and GBD, not Gdim and Fdim which would have been G Bb Db and F Ab Cb.

viz · July 2015

thomasross20 said:

GuyBoden said:

thomasross20 said:

Which do you think is more useful? Harmonic or melodic minor?

Melodic Minor Modes.

Agree, I wouldn't learn a scale without learning the modes.

Good post, viz.

I know it's lazy but I'd rather learn a few tools (scales) really well rather than a whole bunch of scales semi-ok. How often do you guys use these scales in actuality (gigs etc)?

Cheers, well I use the acoustic scale in place of the lydian, I use the super locrian off the dominant in jazz, but also in rock, I use the hindu scale on the IV chord in blues. I also use the phrygian dominant in places where you might use phrygian or snake charmer scale, or oriental scale, or even persian scale (modes 1 or 4), like if playing along to Rainbow or the like. And of course melodic minor itself where I want to sweeten the minor on the way up.

seany65 · July 2015

@viz, Thanks for the clarifcation.

So going up it's A melodic minor's F#dim and G#dim, but coming down they're natural A minor's F Major and G Major, although I use G6 instead as it's easier for me.

Modern styles would more likely use the A natural minor scale tone chords, with an Eb minor chord instead of Em and with F major and G major.

viz · July 2015

Hi - well, to your last point, A minor is the relative of C major and has no sharps or flats, at least A Natural minor (Aeolian) doesn't. On the piano you can just play the triads on all the white notes. So it's:

Amin: ACE

Bdim: BDF

Cmaj: CEG

Dmin: DFA

Emin: EGB

Fmaj: FAC

Gmaj: GBD ( you play GBE I take it)

Amin: ACE

It's the same chords as C major's. Not sure where you're getting an Eb from.

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melodic minor scales made of chords

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