Train wreck, Dumble etc

koneguitarist · October 2013

Ok most of us love certain amps because they are the amps that were on a certain song or solo that we liked etc, but for the life of me I cannot think of any classic hit done on a top Boutique amp to justify their prices. What exactly is it that makes people want one, knowing its so expensive and never having ever played through one ?

photek · October 2013

Not a specific song but is enough for me to want one. The '59 probably helps

From 2:10 it starts

ToneControl · October 2013

Personally, I can't remember buying any amp because of a certain track. A certain style would be part of it though

Initially for me in the 80s it was "what's for sale I the local shop that I can afford that everyone seems happy with and reviews are good" This did not work well for me really

Then in the 90s "what does my amp guru have for sale or recommend, or looks like a good deal". That worked better

Since 2006 for me it's been "what are the most highly regarded amps in the top 20 lists, etc, and variations of them, and where can I get them since the local shop usually doesn't sell them, and the maker doesn't make them anymore"

So within the recent purchase strategy, I got Dumble and trainwreck, and JTM45 clones, etc. and original modern boutiques. Eventually after chopping and changing, I now have amps I really think suit me the best

The museum/art collector prices for Dumbles and Trainwrecks are the same issue as the 1959 LP. These are investment/collector prices, not based on value as an instrument. is an old strat or LP really worth £100k, £300k, etc?

Dumbles appear on a lot of famous tracks AFAIK, Trainwrecks very few, but look at who the makers sold to.

Not sure if you also mean brands like Matchless and Two rock, etc - but the fact that highly respected players use them would influence many to try them, who else would you trust? A magazine review from a mag full of gear adverts is not as good (as discussed in this forum recently). If your financially comfortable favourite player uses a guitar / amp / pickup for years - to me it's the best indication that something is at least worth a try out

viz · October 2013

Every single bit of equipment I bought in the 90s was to try to get the sound of For The Love Of God by Vai. It was only later that I realised it was in his vingers and the volume knob.

stickyfiddle · October 2013

Listen to John Mayer for Dumble type tone. He's the only properly successful guy using that stuff that I'm aware of.

ESchap · October 2013

If you've got the money and you can't have it, because of rarity, it's going to make you and others (with money) want it more, then the prices spiral. Then to justify the prices, it adopts the "emperors new clothes" mystique and sheen.

(this sums up Mr. Dumble's whole marketing strategy, though whether he was clever or just barking is open to debate)

Eventually as a person you get through Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and realise .... it's all in the fingers!

dindude · October 2013

A lot of the readily available booteeks, such as Dr Z, Matchless, Carr, Lazy J, Two Rock etc, mearly get you back to what amps were like back in the day (with modern refinments) IMO. i.e. obsessively designed, hand wired, built in either UK or USA to last a lifetime.

That's just the cost of doing it that way.

You are definately into diminishing returns compared to a far east manufactured PCB equivelant, but the difference is there - everyone who plays through my Carr compliments it, it's a stunning amp.

Going the next level to Trainwrek, Dumble etc and excessive pricing that comes with it, I think you're into equivelant of hi-end Hi Fi and the fairly dust (and wife-loss) that goes with it.

stickyfiddle · October 2013

dindude said:

A lot of the readily available booteeks, such as Dr Z, Matchless, Carr, Lazy J, Two Rock etc, mearly get you back to what amps were like back in the day (with modern refinments) IMO. i.e. obsessively designed, hand wired, built in either UK or USA to last a lifetime.
That's just the cost of doing it that way.

Wisdom! I haven't tried a Two Rock or Lazy J, but every Dr Z and Carr I've ever come across has been a glorious thing.

I can't comprehend that the Dumbles stuff is actually worth the money for tone, but much more for investment potential and bragging rights.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2013

I find it much easier to play them and decide what I like the sound of. Surprisingly, few of my friends follow this routine and buy amps their favourite artists use, or that are "flavour of the month", so to speak.

Sadly (or not), I find that most amps these days are capable of decent tone and it's hard to separate them on sound alone. I use reviews from techs for reliability to help me decide, but from a tone perspective, I have to try before I buy.

Sporky · October 2013

stickyfiddle said:

I can't comprehend that the Dumbles stuff is actually worth the money for tone

I think that depends on how much money you've got. What are they, £50k or so? If you make several million a year playing guitar then that's not a ridiculous amount to spend on an amp if you really like the sound.

stickyfiddle · October 2013

Sporky said:

stickyfiddle said:

I can't comprehend that the Dumbles stuff is actually worth the money for tone

I think that depends on how much money you've got. What are they, £50k or so? If you make several million a year playing guitar then that's not a ridiculous amount to spend on an amp if you really like the sound.

Yeah of course- usual caveats apply and all that. Someone must be buying all those Joe Bonamassa Les Pauls. Presumably it's the same category of rich obsessives!

Sporky · October 2013

I do suspect you're right that a significant proportion of such things go into collections rather than rigs though.

hywelg · October 2013

Joe B bought his Dumble to use it. I doubt he'll gig with it but it will get used. Mayer has how many? 3, 4? They get used. KWS gigs his, RF gigs his. They guys that can afford them gig 'em. The prices are high because they are in high demand, not because thats what HAD charges for them.

Trainwreck OTOH is a different matter. There aren't going to be anymore, not tuned by KF anyway.

@stickyfiddle, what they are worth is determined by what someone will pay, whether you agree or not. You can't argue with an opinion, if JB says he wants one for 'his' sound then no-one can say he's wrong. He paid closer to £70k I think.

ourmaninthenorth · October 2013

koneguitarist said:

Ok most of us love certain amps because they are the amps that were on a certain song or solo that we liked etc, but for the life of me I cannot think of any classic hit done on a top Boutique amp to justify their prices. What exactly is it that makes people want one, knowing its so expensive and never having ever played through one ?

It's a good question Taff, unfortunately I haven't got a good answer to go with it.

:-B

IvisonGuitars · October 2013

I got into Matchless in the late 90's through Guitarist reviews, being underwhelmed by the 'off the shelf' amps available and that a lot of the Alt. Country guys in bands I really liked were using them. A friend of mine bought one and, once I'd tried it, I knew I had to have one - even though it took me 10 years to be able to afford one!

They DO sound different and the construction is superb, it's boutique/top quality components at the end of the day which I think justifies the price. And I agree with what @dindude said, it's a way to get back to how amps were originally made, albeit with modern construction and reliability and safety.

It is a bit of a double edged sword though as, once I got used to that sound, I really struggle to go back to a 'production' amp these days, they just don't have the 'sparkle'.

You do end up trying to better the best (as only a GAS addict will) and so I moved over to BadCat, which I personally prefer over Matchless...

....Then once you have your Class A, EL84 tone sorted, you seek out the best boutique Tweed sound you can, hence finding Lazy J!

And I dare say it'll continue...!

koneguitarist · October 2013

I do get how good some of these amps are, I have played, Badcat, Matchless, Carr etc and all have been superb amps, but no better tone than some of the old Marshalls Voxes and Fenders I have had and used. Most of these amps are high quality amps that are hand wired using best components, similar to What Marshall and the rest used to do before rising costs forced them to cheapen builds and cut costs etc.

But the Dumble and Trainwrecks are ridiculously overpriced due to hype more than quality, not that they are not great amps far from it. But I do wonder if you have a great guitarist with great gear he is gonna sound great, but with a Dumble is he gonna sound any better ? if not, why not cause it costs so much more than any other amp out there.

JohnPerry · October 2013

Personally think you might struggle to tell Bonamassa apart playing through a Dumble as opposed to a Two Rock. If he can tell the difference, though, he might play better i suppose

Dave_Mc · October 2013

koneguitarist said:

What exactly is it that makes people want one, knowing its so expensive and never having ever played through one ?

TGP.

Seriously, though, I mean I've never tried a dumble either so they may well be fantastic. And Sporky makes a good point in that if you have tons of money, £50k probably isn't that much (and rarity means that there are few enough that rich people can push the prices way up, much like with vintage 1959 les paul standards).

I can't help but think hype plays a part, too, though.

jpfamps · October 2013

Well of course the price is determined by supply and demand.

Both these amps are rare as Ken Fischer made Trainwrecks as a side line to his repair business, and didn't charge big bucks for them, and Howard Dumble did charge large amounts of money for his amps (I think he's more into making guns these days).

The value is of course a much more nebulous entity and will vary depending on your view point.

If you are very wealthy is not perhaps not so much that you value a Dumble amp more than you or I, but that you don't value $50,000 as much.

Today there are plenty of companies making Trainwreck and Dumble-style amps. There are several amps in production that have had input from Ken Fisher (eg Komet), but none from Howard Dumble.

Personally I have nightmares about having to play a gig with a Dumble-style amp; it's simply not a sound I like, so I don't really have much motivation to acquire one even if I could afford one (which I can't).

I do like the Trainwreck clips I've heard, and would really like to have a go with real one.

Barney · October 2013

i think Dumbles are associated with a lot of top players....but them same players would sound as good through any amp ....the fact that there isnt many about they demand high money....but not having tried a real Dumble i wouldnt know iff they are better than any other amp...from what iv heard on youtube and stuff....they would seem a nice amp but there a lot of nice amps out there for a lot less cash..

jellyroll · October 2013

Plus of course the PRICE isnt the same as the COST of ownership. If the market for these high end amps stays buoyant, the buyers will probably recover their £50k outlay. So the cost of ownership is barely more than the cost of owning something more modest.

hywelg · October 2013

The thing about these high value amps and the high cost clones, is that they are most often bought by player who knows who (in playing terms) they are, they have their playing style sorted, they are the ones who are searching for the last 1% of tone, response etc. Most (and I am making assumptions about forum members playing abilities here), on here would likely hate the way a Dumble will reveal the flaws in a players technique, but thats what a good player is searching for often, the ability of an amp to truly reflect what the fingers and head are trying to portray.

martinw · October 2013

Here's my theory:

Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. There's a much smaller market for high end amps here, as compared with high end guitars. I'm generalising of course, but I'd say the interest in that kind of sound amongst the typical UK guitar player is far lower. Even amongst the membership of this board, which IMO is a self-selecting and untypical group. In contrast look at the number of small amp companies in the US....there's thousands of them!

My theory as to why is to do with predominant musical styles, and the equipment needed for them, creating a culture in America of guitar playing that regards amps as vital tone shapers, part of the instrument. We seem to be a lot more 'rock' over here, less interested in the subtleties of various different 'not-quite-clean' sounds and such.

When I think of a typical British guitar player, he's a guy playing classic rock in a pub, or playing indie with lots of effects and a Jag, or a younger guy with a beard playing drop-tuned metal.....the majority of my repair customers will fit into a category like this. (Generalising and stereotyping, but go with it).

I'm sure the septics have many of the above, but I'm guessing they also have many more country and blues players, and fans of the guys who did use TW and Dumble amps.

Representative of this difference, is the OPs statement that he couldn't think of a classic hit done on one of these amps; plenty of great recordings were done on them, and on a US forum, those recordings would have been well known and mentioned. In fact I've seen that exact question come up on TGP, and the list is surprisingly long but it's stuff that is less popular over here.

In short: If your hero played a Marshall, then that's what you want. If he uses a Dumble (or Two Rock or Fuchs or Bludotone etc etc), then only a D-style amp will do. There's enough demand, as JPF said, worldwide to drive up the price of those amps, as well as the similar sounding amps still made today. As a Brit, if you want one of these, you're going to have to pay US prices in today's global marketplace.

jpfamps · October 2013

martinw said:

Here's my theory:
Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. There's a much smaller market for high end amps here, as compared with high end guitars. I'm generalising of course, but I'd say the interest in that kind of sound amongst the typical UK guitar player is far lower. Even amongst the membership of this board, which IMO is a self-selecting and untypical group. In contrast look at the number of small amp companies in the US....there's thousands of them!
My theory as to why is to do with predominant musical styles, and the equipment needed for them, creating a culture in America of guitar playing that regards amps as vital tone shapers, part of the instrument. We seem to be a lot more 'rock' over here, less interested in the subtleties of various different 'not-quite-clean' sounds and such.
When I think of a typical British guitar player, he's a guy playing classic rock in a pub, or playing indie with lots of effects and a Jag, or a younger guy with a beard playing drop-tuned metal.....the majority of my repair customers will fit into a category like this. (Generalising and stereotyping, but go with it).
I'm sure the septics have many of the above, but I'm guessing they also have many more country and blues players, and fans of the guys who did use TW and Dumble amps.
Representative of this difference, is the OPs statement that he couldn't think of a classic hit done on one of these amps; plenty of great recordings were done on them, and on a US forum, those recordings would have been well known and mentioned. In fact I've seen that exact question come up on TGP, and the list is surprisingly long but it's stuff that is less popular over here.
In short: If your hero played a Marshall, then that's what you want. If he uses a Dumble (or Two Rock or Fuchs or Bludotone etc etc), then only a D-style amp will do. There's enough demand, as JPF said, worldwide to drive up the price of those amps, as well as the similar sounding amps still made today. As a Brit, if you want one of these, you're going to have to pay US prices in today's global marketplace.

I would certainly agree with this, they do seem to be more into their amps in the US.

jpfamps · October 2013

hywelg said:

Most (and I am making assumptions about forum members playing abilities here), on here would likely hate the way a Dumble will reveal the flaws in a players technique, but thats what a good player is searching for often, the ability of an amp to truly reflect what the fingers and head are trying to portray.

Of course, silly me, that's why I don't like Dumble-style amps because they will reveal how truly appalling my guitar playing is!

mart · October 2013

martinw said:

Here's my theory:
Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US.
....

Is that more true about amps than about guitars? I have the impression this might be part of the huge culture difference between the UK and the US about all sorts of equipment. We tend often to fall into the "it's all in the fingers" way of thinking, which has a huge amount of respect for the person making amazing music on a Squier through a cheap amp, but a slight disdain for the guys that have the most expensive boutique kit, no matter how well they use it.

I think it ties in with our love of rank amateurism - producing amazing stuff in garden sheds, etc etc.

ToneControl · October 2013

mart said:

martinw said:

Here's my theory:
Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US.
....

Is that more true about amps than about guitars? I have the impression this might be part of the huge culture difference between the UK and the US about all sorts of equipment. We tend often to fall into the "it's all in the fingers" way of thinking, which has a huge amount of respect for the person making amazing music on a Squier through a cheap amp, but a slight disdain for the guys that have the most expensive boutique kit, no matter how well they use it.

I think it ties in with our love of rank amateurism - producing amazing stuff in garden sheds, etc etc.

I think we're the same about guitars too in the UK - most people are happy with semi-pro guitars here. The network of small-shop acoustic builders in particular over in the USA is doing amazing things, and getting plenty of sales. Our best luthiers find it hard to find buyers, everyone just wants a Taylor. Most people don't even know the top USA boutique acoustic brand names

Mind you, unlike plenty of other things, the Americans did invent steel strung guitars, electrics, lap steels, amps, etc. so they have grown up with the best kit for sale - good kit was pretty rare here until recently. The exception to this is that everyone still looks to Spain firstly for top classicals, but we don't have the long-term history in any category here (other than Vox and Marshall making stunning designs before going off onto something new), and you are right, there is a (to me inexplicable) "you should make do with cheap gear, even if you have the money to buy better" attitude that is popular in the UK

As I've said to Martin, I can't believe that people will go into Dawsons or PMT, etc., buy Gibsons, USA Fenders, PRSs, then run them through their single, much cheaper amp. I think a ratio of one amp for every 2 guitars is a good idea, spending about the same on an amp as on a guitar. I have certainly noticed the benefit from adopting this approach.

ToneControl · October 2013

martinw said:

Here's my theory:
Left to us Brits, these things (Dumbles and TWs) wouldn't have the value that they do in the US. We don't 'do amps' over here in the same way they 'do amps' in the US. There's a much smaller market for high end amps here, as compared with high end guitars. I'm generalising of course, but I'd say the interest in that kind of sound amongst the typical UK guitar player is far lower. Even amongst the membership of this board, which IMO is a self-selecting and untypical group. In contrast look at the number of small amp companies in the US....there's thousands of them!
My theory as to why is to do with predominant musical styles, and the equipment needed for them, creating a culture in America of guitar playing that regards amps as vital tone shapers, part of the instrument. We seem to be a lot more 'rock' over here, less interested in the subtleties of various different 'not-quite-clean' sounds and such.
When I think of a typical British guitar player, he's a guy playing classic rock in a pub, or playing indie with lots of effects and a Jag, or a younger guy with a beard playing drop-tuned metal.....the majority of my repair customers will fit into a category like this. (Generalising and stereotyping, but go with it).
I'm sure the septics have many of the above, but I'm guessing they also have many more country and blues players, and fans of the guys who did use TW and Dumble amps.
Representative of this difference, is the OPs statement that he couldn't think of a classic hit done on one of these amps; plenty of great recordings were done on them, and on a US forum, those recordings would have been well known and mentioned. In fact I've seen that exact question come up on TGP, and the list is surprisingly long but it's stuff that is less popular over here.
In short: If your hero played a Marshall, then that's what you want. If he uses a Dumble (or Two Rock or Fuchs or Bludotone etc etc), then only a D-style amp will do. There's enough demand, as JPF said, worldwide to drive up the price of those amps, as well as the similar sounding amps still made today. As a Brit, if you want one of these, you're going to have to pay US prices in today's global marketplace.

The rare museum pieces for $60k are just for investment or very rich guys. If you are worth $20 million, and drive cars costing £200k, who cares if an amp is £50k, you can always sell it on with your celeb vibe added.

More interesting are the upmarket boutique models in production. As you say, the USA buyers seem keen to buy every variation of tone that can help build the individual sounds people want. This seems to be the correct approach if you approach this as a serious player looking for your own sound.

Most people here seem to buy the same amps as each other, then keep changing their pickups, or spending a fortune on pedals to change the way the amp sounds. I can't see the shops complaining about that

hywelg · October 2013

@ToneControl, nice to see you on here, the Ceriatone forum seems to have died.

JohnPerry · October 2013

Not sure I agree that Americans are inherently less happy to settle for "stock" amps and tone. The guitar/amp market in the States is just bigger for reasons of population and economics too, isn't it? Five times the population. Far lower cost of living in many places, allowing more builders to be able to survive on the limited margins available building high-quality amps and guitars, which they might not here. And where we might pay £2,500 for a Carr, they'll pay, what, £1,500 maybe?

Am I wrong?

Lexie1 · October 2013

They sent a begging email out recently so maybe they needed some dosh for hosting etc?

@ToneControl TGG is swapping servers at the moment so will be back with a New Look shortly.

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Train wreck, Dumble etc

Comments