Throwing away the rule book?!?!?

bloodandtears · April 2015

Tinkering with the following chord progression: | Dm7 | G | A | A | ... sounds nice to my ear on a slow synth setting on "Chordbot", a cool android app for looping chords.

After a while noodling over it, I decided to then try theorise it out.

So to my ear, at least, there is a strong resolution to the key of A.
And spelling out my chords...
Dm7 :- D, F, A, C
G :- G, B, D
A :- A, C#, E
... I could see that whilst it sounds cool to me.. it flies in the face of any diatonic progression or scale that I'm aware of.

My workings lead me to spot the C# suggested the D major scale held some clues...
D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#,D
... and that with the perceived key of A resolution perhaps A mixolydian mode variant was being utilised.
Now had the opening chord of the progression been Dmaj7, thus bringing in the F# and C#, we'd be back on safe diatonic ground; but it doesn't.

So going out on a limb here, is it fair to say that this modulates from A minor (C Major) to A mixolydian (D Major)?

As an aside, I'm thoroughly enjoying this journey in theory, although my learning is totally unstructured, I reckon whilst its cool to know some of this stuff, sometimes you should just relax and trust your ear ;-)

MatthewShreddery · April 2015

Those chords are from D minor melodic.

For me, it's not the C# that is interesting but the B natural in the G chord that really makes things fruity.

frankus · April 2015

First thing I'd explore is which sounds better Amaj7 or A7 - even if you're not going to use the bigger chord it'll give you more information about the progression.

Megii · April 2015

To my ears, the Dm then G sounds like chords ii and V in C major. The ear is kind of expecting a C chord after that, but instead there is an A - OK this is not diatonic to the key of C, but it is the V of Dm, so it takes you back to the beginning of the progression nicely.

bloodandtears · April 2015

I had thought that the D melodic minor was a potential candidate, especially if I dropped the 7th note from the opening Dm7 chord...

..but if the 7th chord stays, the C note adds confusion to the mix.. and the D melodic minor doesn't suggest an A key sig tonality...

MatthewShreddery · April 2015

One scale will not always fit every chord in a progression.

Don;t try to force one scale on your progression.

It's in Dminor. This doesn't mean every note in an D minor scale will work over all the chords, all of the time. It just tells you what is 'home' and how the rest of the notes and chords relate to that.

Chromatically altering a chord gives a progression some spice, opening up opportunities for other sounds to be used. This helps things not to sound too vanilla.

bloodandtears · April 2015

Ok.. I get all that.. but I still hear A as 'home' not D ;-)

viz · April 2015

So do I - but I can make it the dm too - it depends on what rhythm you have in your head. The bars you wrote point towards A because it's unusual for something to end on the dominant. The chords fit the Hindu scale in A very well, or actually the first thing I had in my mind was basically something akin to a tierce de picardie, making a major of the tonic A.

bloodandtears · April 2015

tierce de picardie... aka a Picardy third... love it.. make it so!

I've heard this in many a ballad, in particular I think Journey's Loved By You.

MatthewShreddery · April 2015

No idea how you guys are hearing A as home

I thought a picardy 3rd was only on the tonic chord.

bloodandtears · April 2015

An static bass line of A works a treat beneath the chords.... D doesn't work for my ear for the bars I wrote

viz · April 2015

MatthewShreddery said:

No idea how you guys are hearing A as home
I thought a picardy 3rd was only on the tonic chord.

It is - for me it's on the A, which is the tonic. I think you're hearing it like something like Twist and Shout, but in d minor key, whereas I initially had it as a sort of Still Got the Blues (with some chords missing but it's the best I can think of) in a minor, but actually doing a tierce de picardie so that a minor (tonic) becomes A major at the end. Or like Arvo Pärt's Fratres but finishing on the major.

Though I have to confess, now I've got twist and shout's rhythm going round, I can't get d minor as the root out of my head!

MatthewShreddery · April 2015

I might understand you thinking A was the tonic if the chord progression began on an A of some sort but it doesn't.

It starts on D minor.

This makes your ear (well, mine at least) hear Dm as the Tonic.

Your Twist and Shout example doesn't mean anything to me; if I played D G A (twist and shout) I'd say that was in D, not A.

The A is the V chord: The "Aaaaaahhhhh aaaaaahhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhh" bit is a dominant 7 arpeggio.

bloodandtears · April 2015

good example with the twist and shout reference. .. but the difference between the d major vs d minor 7th change it from a very pop happy vibe to a softer feel to me....

Btw... babooshka !!!

viz · April 2015

MatthewShreddery said:

I might understand you thinking A was the tonic if the chord progression began on an A of some sort but it doesn't.
It starts on D minor.
This makes your ear (well, mine at least) hear Dm as the Tonic.

Your Twist and Shout example doesn't mean anything to me; if I played D G A (twist and shout) I'd say that was in D, not A.
The A is the V chord: The "Aaaaaahhhhh aaaaaahhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhhh aaaaahhhhhhh" bit is a dominant 7 arpeggio.

Lol yeah mate, I was agreeing with you on the twist and shout. It's very natural. I was coming round to your way of thinking, not disagreeing with you, do you see what i mean now? Hearing it again, I hear it more and more like the twist and shout, where the D is the tonic. I'm just saying that I didn't stumble across that first time, I sumbled across the the other alternative like Still Got the Blues, which, as I'm sure you know, is in a minor, despite starting on the d minor. It starts on the IV. Not like parisienne walkways.

Btw I find it interesting that a 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm seems to favour the d minor as the tonic and the 6/8 favours the A minor (or major) as the tonic.

GuyBoden · April 2015

It's in D minor.

Minor harmony is much more interesting than Major Harmony, as you probably already know, the three basic scales to choose from are: Natural minor, Harmonic minor and Melodic minor. You can combine any or all of the three minor harmony types. Create the basic chords by stacking every third note of each scale.

Your progression:
Dmin7 : D F A C (the one chord from Natural minor harmony)
G : G B D               (the four chord from Melodic minor harmony. A subdominant chord)
A : A C# E              (the five chord from Melodic and Harmonic minor harmony. (For Jazzier, add 7th and an added b9 in the chord?))

Using minor harmony, it's a I IV V (1-4-5) progression.

Even without any theory and just using my ear, I'm hearing D minor as the tonic because:

"A" Chord     :- A, C#, E
"Dm7" Chord :- D, F, A, C

The "A" chord will pull towards resolving to Dm7 because:

1.) The notes A down to D is a perfect fifth, the strongest resolution by human ear.
2.) The notes C# to C is a semi tone, semi tones are the other very strong resolution movement.
3.) The notes E to F is another semi tone, yet another very strong resolution movement.

bloodandtears · April 2015

Fair enough... in my progression..

Dm7, G, A x 2... I still hear A.. but agree that a D melodic minor is "best fit"... I guess I should record what I'm jamming to and see what you guys think too...

GuyBoden · April 2015

To keep it simple, I'd forget about the "C" note in the Dmin7, I'd just use the notes D, F, A for the chord and then it's easier to solo/improv just using the D melodic minor. But, try to outline some of each chord's notes in your melody, so it seems you know what you're playing.

bingefeller · April 2015

If I was playing over that I would probably think in terms of D Dorian. Would really have to hear it first but that's what would come in to my mind.

frankus · April 2015

GuyBoden said:

It's in D minor.

The saddest key of all.

GuyBoden · April 2015

bingefeller said:

If I was playing over that I would probably think in terms of D Dorian. Would really have to hear it first but that's what would come in to my mind.

Avoiding playing a "C" in "D Dorian" over the "C#" in AMaj?

Try to outline some of each chord's notes in your melody, so it seems you know what you're playing?

bingefeller · April 2015

GuyBoden said:

bingefeller said:

If I was playing over that I would probably think in terms of D Dorian. Would really have to hear it first but that's what would come in to my mind.

Avoiding playing a "C" in "D Dorian" over the "C#" in AMaj?

Try to outline some of each chord's notes in your melody, so it seems you know what you're playing?

Not sure if you're asking me or telling me but, I would probably want to use that tension, and the F (b6) over the A. People mix A minor and A major pent over A7 chords all the time (C and C#). Like I said, I'd have to hear it first to decide where to go but D Dorian would be where I would lean towards..

GuyBoden · April 2015

bingefeller said:

GuyBoden said:

bingefeller said:

If I was playing over that I would probably think in terms of D Dorian. Would really have to hear it first but that's what would come in to my mind.

Avoiding playing a "C" in "D Dorian" over the "C#" in AMaj?

Try to outline some of each chord's notes in your melody, so it seems you know what you're playing?

Not sure if you're asking me or telling me but, I would probably want to use that tension, and the F (b6) over the A. People mix A minor and A major pent over A7 chords all the time (C and C#). Like I said, I'd have to hear it first to decide where to go but D Dorian would be where I would lean towards..

Yeah, I agree, we all play with a combination of ear and experience, but this being the "Theory" section of the forum I do like to add a bit of theory............................

More theory, for anyone reading, who doesn't already know, changing the type of chord/scale like bingefeller example "mix A minor and A major pent over A7 chord" is called "Modal Interchange" or "Parallel Substitution"

By the way, I studied Music at college when I was 16, and have not stopped studying music, I'm now in my 50's.........

sweepy · April 2015

My way of looking at it is, do you want to play WITH or Through the changes, that way treat each chord as a separate key centre, for with and and harmonise it for through iyswim

bingefeller · April 2015

sweepy;596265" said:
My way of looking at it is, do you want to play WITH or Through the changes, that way treat each chord as a separate key centre, for with and and harmonise it for through iyswim

I think that if you follow the changes too ridgidly your soloing can sound too boxy. You have to feel the changes and use your ear rather than being overly aware of them.

sweepy · April 2015

true but you always find the pedal tones within the structure and if you think in a linear fashion along the string, rather than pattern based boxes you soon sound like a bebop player

frankus · April 2015

I remember Joe Pass said in a ii V I ... he'd just imagine he was playing over the V from the start...

I prefer this notion as it shows that the soloist is leading the listener through the changes... think of it like a tour guide "and coming up shortly on your left is Westminster Abbey..."

bloodandtears · April 2015

@frankus so using that philosphy then.. the original progression would look like.. i IV V V ??

frankus · April 2015

I don't know, I could figure it out BUT, it's not my music, I'm not an authority, I don't ever want to be an authority, I'd like to introduce stuff so people can find out for themselves and own their own journey and discoveries as I find most people really enjoy that... also my tastes aren't yours and I don't have a guitar in front of me.

In your situation, I'd do this:

play the progression with a C in each chord, play the progression with a C# in each chord - figure which I liked best.

then

record the progression into channel 1 of my EHX 2880
play C# over the whole progression and record that into channel 2 of my EHX2880
play C over the whole progression and record that into channel 3 of my EHX2880

then mess around with the sliders as it's the C# that's causing the quandaries ... make a cup of peppermint tea, listen to my youngest's latest discoveries about star wars lego ... go back and have another fiddle.

then I'd record a stock bassline on the EHX 2880 root and fifth only... for the progression
play C# over the whole progression and record that into channel 2 of my EHX2880
play C over the whole progression and record that into channel 3 of my EHX2880

I'd do this because sometimes a melody is so good, I'll revise the progression to keep it, if only on a scrap of paper somewhere...

I'd play the notes close to the register of the chord and lower and higher and decide which ones worked where.

The people I've known who got paid to write and produce music were craftsman - people went to them because they had a track record of producing likeable noises... one of those people used band in a box pushed through a high end midi synth... and got paid thousands, it took him minutes... TV shows, Radio jingles ... these things require a craftsman... the guy who wrote EastEnders wrote it on a Piano... all the Jazz greats figured stuff out on piano... despite claims to the contrary, they used the piano.... it's easier to goof around and experiment more.

Ultimately we all like different things and we all want that to be shown and to be accepted, which means making mistakes and bumbling about until we make our own rulebook - complete with misunderstandings and insights that make it unique.

As Oscar Wilde put it - be yourself, everyone else is already taken

GuyBoden · April 2015

@frankus I like it, good stuff.

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Throwing away the rule book?!?!?

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