perpetual beginners

clare_bear · August 2013

BigPaulie;8905" said:
@Clare do you look at your tabs/chord sheets while playing?

I find this one of the main barriers to successfully committing songs to memory.

I have several ring binders, and loads of electronic tabs which I look at whilst playing.

There are relatively few of those songs which I actually "know" off by heart.

The only songs I can remember inside-out are the ones I've made a committed effort to memorise by forcing myself to practice without looking at the reference material.

I usually take it a section at a time. Intro, first verse, chorus, solo etc. I learn a section by looking at the material and playing along. Then I'll play along without looking at the material. I do this as many times as I need to so it "sticks". Then I move onto the next section. When I've got that, I put them together, playing the whole thing up to that point without reference to the tab/sheet.

Before you know it you'll have played a song 10s of times, without looking at chords/tabs, and if you make the effort to play that song each day over the next wee while, most of them "stick".

Works for me.

One caveat. This is a time consuming way of memorising songs, so I tend to only use it for ones that I really like or intend to use in a public environment. For all the others that I just want to play now and again, I just refer to tabs etc.

You're absolutely right, this is the only way to commit them to memory. I managed to learn about 25 songs for the band and this is how I did it. I try to play the song through looking at the chords and then without looking, but I don't put the chords out of reach. ..I must! I'm not even learning anything complicated, just simple strumalongs.

I'll make a dedicated effort to hide the chords.

not_the_dj · August 2013

@clare_bear Join a band! (or re-join ;-) )

clare_bear · August 2013

not_the_dj;9532" said:
@clare_bear

Join a band! (or re-join ;-) )

Ha ha :-) Definitely not going to have time once I start the MSc!

TheOtherDennis · August 2013

I'm the same. Notionally I've been playing for over 14 years now, but in reality, I've had three years off, minimum, maybe even four, and only the first four of those years was I actually improving. I did spend a fair bit of time learning stuff that I have now completely forgotten.

I can learn to play stuff without the music/tab with a few plays. It takes a while to go in completely, because while I get the main bits, I forget the little stuff - where there's that chord you only play once in the whole song, for instance, I tend to miss it out cos I've forgotten it goes there.

What I really need at the moment is an incentive to pick up the guitar at all. Right now all of my expensively assembled (literally) collection is simply gathering dust. I haven't even touched my guitars except to move them since a sudden burst of activity in June. And that was the first time I'd touched them since, ooh, two years ago maybe?

My mojo, man, has gone for a walk and hasn't come back yet.

Clarky · August 2013

Clare - try learning a song in small chunks...

learn each small chunk and memorise it..

then move on to the next..

the only way to really nail this is repetition..

octatonic · August 2013

I'm happy to write up a practice log for people who feel they are getting nowhere.

Often people don't have an idea of what constitutes effective practice and it can come as quite a surprise when they find out what it actually is.

You'll need a minimum of one hour 6 days a week- although two hours would get you there quicker.

octatonic · August 2013

mike_l said:

My way is to use the sheet music/DVD to get the part right, then play through a few times without it, from the beginning of the song.
So it's intro
the intro/verse1
then intro/verse1/chorus
etc
So I'm adding a part each time until I know the whole song.

Try working back to front.

Learn the ending first- as it will be the bit people notice if you fuck it up.

I see this a lot where someone starts a piece brilliantly and it gets progressively more shit as time goes by.

I also see it in my own playing- I can play the first 16 bars of Donna Lee approaching the speed of light.

The last 16... not so much.

mike_l · August 2013

@octatonic ; I shall try that.

juansolo · August 2013

Hell yes. My excuse was that I discovered making pedals and kind of overlooked the learning how to play bit...

clare_bear · August 2013

octatonic said:

I'm happy to write up a practice log for people who feel they are getting nowhere.
Often people don't have an idea of what constitutes effective practice and it can come as quite a surprise when they find out what it actually is.

You'll need a minimum of one hour 6 days a week- although two hours would get you there quicker.

But what do you do if you can only grab half an hour now and again? How do you effectively practice if you can't make a practice schedule, or is it more a matter of maintaining than improving if you can't dedicate time to it?

zoglug · August 2013

I first bought a guitar 12 months ago and i have been guilty of being a perpetual beginner! When i first started, all i did was watch youtube video's of songs i liked and tried to learn what was being taught. I quickly realised i was not going to get far doing that. During the 12 months i also had a couple of unexpected breaks in practicing due to 3 house moves which also did not help.

Recently, i picked up Learn and Master Guitar on the advice of people on another forum. I have found it has been a great resource during the course of the last month but the same issues remain of staying dedicated to following it and making the most use out of the hour or so i get each evening to play. I regularly find myself strumming along to the 4 or 5 songs i managed to learn to play to a fashion.

octatonic · August 2013

clare_bear said:

octatonic said:

I'm happy to write up a practice log for people who feel they are getting nowhere.
Often people don't have an idea of what constitutes effective practice and it can come as quite a surprise when they find out what it actually is.

You'll need a minimum of one hour 6 days a week- although two hours would get you there quicker.

But what do you do if you can only grab half an hour now and again? How do you effectively practice if you can't make a practice schedule, or is it more a matter of maintaining than improving if you can't dedicate time to it?

I make time.

Other things get sacrificed.

If I want to run a marathon I have to make time to go running.

It is unrealistic to expect progress without doing the work.

Sorry but that is how it is.

You will get to a point where you don't need to play 6 days a week to maintain your technique.

You can't stop completely without it having a definite impact though.

I had a shoulder operation a few months ago and it took me about a month to get back up to match fitness.

It sucked.

VimFuego · August 2013

I'll be interested in seeing the practice log. I'm following Justin Sanderco's system at the moment, but it'd be interesting to see what else is out there.

Clarky · August 2013

Clare - one of the biggest things with learning an instrument is not 'how long' you been playing it, but 'how many' hours you've racked up. way back when I'd only been playing for about 3 years [I think], I had a jam with a pal that had been playing for 10 years. He couldn't believe the difference between us. It seemed back to front because I was quite a bit more proficient. Then we worked out "hours per day" [for me] and "hours per week" [for him]. When we multiplied it all out by the years we'd been playing, it actually turned out that I had more than 4 times his total hours. So in meaningful terms, I'd actually been playing quite a lot longer..

if you can only play little, at least try to play often..

also, 30 minutes per day will be better for you than 10 hours on one day per week.. This is because you see the neck more frequently and therefore have less time to forget what you've learned.

octatonic · August 2013

VimFuego said:

I'll be interested in seeing the practice log. I'm following Justin Sanderco's system at the moment, but it'd be interesting to see what else is out there.

Mine is pretty similar to that- I'll post something sometime today.

VimFuego · August 2013

cheers octa, mucho appreciated.

octatonic · August 2013

Here is a practice log from my time at ICMP.

http://www.jamesrichmond.com/misc/plog.jpg

You can see I break down my time into small chunks.

This is essential.

You don't learn *a thing* any quicker by playing it more than 20 mins or so per day.

Breaking a task down, like Harmonic Minor modes, into 15-20 min blocks and playing them every day is going to be many times more effective than trying to cram it into a one hour block.

In terms of what YOU (speaking to everyone here) should practice then it really depends on where you are at.

If you cannot play pentatonic minor, major scale, minor scales, 4 arpeggio types (major 7, minor 7, dominant, min7b5) in a few keys all over the neck then I would start with that.

Also work on aural & transcription, reading, harmony and theory.

Once I get a particular thing up to speed I don't play it every day.

I use a '20 repetitions for 20 days' approach where I play a new thing around 20 times a day for 20 days.

It goes into long term memory and I refresh it often after that, but not every day.

I worked up Donna Lee this way- got it to around 200bpm for an exam.

I can't play it at that speed now but I will never forget the lines and I can get it back to that tempo in a few days.

My 'fingers know it'.

Make friends with that idea.

You can't be on top of everything you've ever played all the time, forever- it doesn't work like that- at least not for me.

You should never let things lag so that you have to start *from scratch again* though- you do that by never really stopping playing.

For instance today I've had a lot on and none of it music.

I'm selling a house and buying a new one- so I've had agents in, photos done etc.

I've still managed 2 hours of playing today and I'm going to play more now.

Another thing to consider is all of your 'down time'.

If I'm standing at a bus stop I'm not just standing there doing nothing- I might be harmonising the major scale in Db, or thinking about how to transpose "Autumn Leaves" into a new key, or reading some sheet music that I've printed out and trying to hear it in my head.

I'm playing a lot of drums now so I will run through drum rudiments, tapping my hands on my legs.

I'm just standing there- why wouldn't I do this?

It is WHAT I DO- I'm a musician- I do music, even when there is no audience.

A lot of what people need to do is just basic finger independence exercises- they are essential.

I won't reinvent the wheel so just do what Justin does here: http://www.justinguitar.com/en/TE-001-FingerGym.php

Mine is a bit different to this but it will do the same job.

Don't spend ALL of your time doing the finger gym, of course- and once your hands get strong enough you probably won't spend much time doing them- I don't now- at least not often.

I know this is a bit rambling but I'm trying to explain an approach that works.

I don't know what you known and what you don't so I don't know what your next step is- only a private lesson or a long PM exchange can inform me of this.

Also, this is just my way, there are many ways to skin this particular cat but the main skills are persistence and determination.

Physical skill on an instrument is mostly down to these rather than 'talent'.

VimFuego · August 2013

awesome, thx. I may scale it down just a tad, I don't think I know 2 whole hours of guitar, but I get the basic principle.

octatonic · August 2013

VimFuego said:

awesome, thx. I may scale it down just a tad, I don't think I know 2 whole hours of guitar, but I get the basic principle.

When I was at ICMP my practice logs were 4-6 hours long.

There was a lot of work.

Now I tend to do 2-3 hours a day of structured playing and a bunch of unstructured playing.

This is a habit- once you get into it you just keep it going.

mike_l · August 2013

@Octatonic ; That's an immense schedule. I'm going to have to work out something like that for myself, although I can't realistically give more than (on average) 1 1/2 hrs per day (2 hrs on early finish 1 hr on late).

For a little guidance where would you start.

I'm thinking

15mins scales

15mins chords

15mins arpeggios

not really where to go from there.....

Cheers

octatonic · August 2013

Try this:

15 mins warm up- finger gym.

15mins scales - break this down- maybe C major modes in CAGED, in in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths- set metronome to 60% of your maximum speed for most of it, play as fast as you can only for the last 2 mins- again to the metronome.

15mins chords - Start with Maj7, Min7, Dom7, M7b5 chords in all keys. This is a deep topic. I like the Drop system.

15mins arpeggios - Maj7, Min7, Dom7, M7b5 arpeggios in all keys- work through 1-2 keys at a time, go around the circle of 5ths- I like to do star with C, then the go in both directions around the circle (So G and F, then D and Bb).

15 mins aural - Ricci Adams site is great.

15 mins sight reading- there are loads of books on this.

15 mins transcription of a solo - pick something that stretches you. Do analysis of the solo, don't just play it, lear to transpose it, play it in different places on the neck, in different octaves.

15 mins transcription of a rock song, rtm/lead

15 mins transcription of something acoustic.

15 mins warm down.

There is 2 1/2 hours.

There is more that you could be doing, of course- there is always more.

Something else to consider- don't consider it failure if you on;y get through 60% of your practice log.

That is a success.

Aim high of course but make sure you look at any work as a success.

ChrisMusic · August 2013

@VimFuego said: ... I don't think I know 2 whole hours of guitar, but I get the basic principle.

A bit of practice, a bit of listening, a bit of playing, and a bit of noodling - it's surprising how quickly a couple of hours slips through your fingers (pun intended)

Most of all have fun, that's why we picked the guitar up in the first place.

@clare_bear, what better way to clear the cobwebs and wind down from your MSc stresses than a little time strumming...

@octatonic thanks for your practice log and advice (wisdom earned me-thinks)

mike_l · August 2013

@octatonic thank you sir, I owe you a pint (or two)

octatonic · August 2013

mike_l said:

@octatonic thank you sir, I owe you a pint (or two)

Very welcome- @ChrisMusic too (Can't figure out multiquote).

mike_l · August 2013

I have a large block folder so I can track what I've done daily/weekly/monthly.

I may even put it on here weekly so you motley crew can mock me.......

I'm thinking maybe I should get a drum machine too (I got a couple of metronomes but don't really like them)

octatonic · August 2013

mike_l said:

I have a large block folder so I can track what I've done daily/weekly/monthly.

I may even put it on here weekly so you motley crew can mock me.......

I'm thinking maybe I should get a drum machine too (I got a couple of metronomes but don't really like them)

Social pressure is GOOD.

I talk a lot in my immediate circle about what I am doing and what I plan to do simply because if I talk about doing X project then I have to finish it- mainly because I don't want to say 'oh no, I gave up'.

Up to you re drum machine vs metronome.

the best thing about metronomes is they are fast.

I have a Tama metronome- it is excellent.

mike_l · August 2013

it's the tick/tick or bleep-bleep noise which I find irritating. Besides I can always slightly increase the volume from the Marshall and drown it out..........

octatonic · August 2013

mike_l said:

it's the tick/tick or bleep-bleep noise which I find irritating. Besides I can always slightly increase the volume from the Marshall and drown it out..........

I don't even notice that anymore.

It is just a pulse- over time you will get good enough that you don't really need it- but you will keep it on as a matter of habit.

clare_bear · August 2013

octatonic;15804" said:
clare_bear said:

octatonic said:

I'm happy to write up a practice log for people who feel they are getting nowhere.Often people don't have an idea of what constitutes effective practice and it can come as quite a surprise when they find out what it actually is.

You'll need a minimum of one hour 6 days a week- although two hours would get you there quicker.

But what do you do if you can only grab half an hour now and again? How do you effectively practice if you can't make a practice schedule, or is it more a matter of maintaining than improving if you can't dedicate time to it?

I make time.Other things get sacrificed.If I want to run a marathon I have to make time to go running.It is unrealistic to expect progress without doing the work.Sorry but that is how it is.

You will get to a point where you don't need to play 6 days a week to maintain your technique.You can't stop completely without it having a definite impact though.I had a shoulder operation a few months ago and it took me about a month to get back up to match fitness.It sucked.

I have an 18 month old son, so it's not possible to sacrifice other things! I'll just have to trickle along.

zoglug · August 2013

This thread has been a great read and great motivation to put my own practice schedule in place. At the moment, i dont think my fingers could take that much so for the forseeable future im going to follow something like this:-

15 minutes - 10 minute guitar workout (David Mead) Whilst it says 10 minute workout, by the time ive recorded results, reset the timer it usually takes 15 minutes
15 minutes - Learn and Master Guitar sessions - Currently on session 2, learning the notes on the first 2 strings. Its also good as it is teaching me how to read music too.
15 minutes chords and chord changes - Using Justin's 1 minute changes exercises
15 minutes - Song Practice - This will be a combination of songs from the L&M guitar course, but also songs which use the chords i am using during the 1 minute changes
15 - 30 minutes - Ear training - I signed up to the easy ear training site which has been a fantastic read each and every day.

Once i get a little better, i will certainly factor in more elements which you mention Octatonic! Again, thank you for sharing your training log.

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