So school me on low-mid budget electro-acoustics

close2u · March 2015

Here's the thing ... My covers band has gone pear-shaped and my enthusiasm to start all over again has dissipated too. I'm currently thinking of just putting my time and effort into doing acoustic songs with me on guitar and my wife on vocals. We have powered speakers. We have just bought a vocal fx harmony box. But I only have an acoustic acoustic guitar. I want - need to be able to plug in. For cheap I suppose I could get a sound hole pickup. I know nothing so would appreciate schooling on them. Equally, if I sell some gear I could raise funds towards a dedicated electro ... And if I did I would want a cutaway. So school me on these ... Budget say upto £250 or lower. First and foremost it must sound good plugged in. 2nd hand is my normal M.O. For buying gear. Thanks.

close2u · March 2015

Further I don't really want to know about dreadnought a or super size models. And I would not be averse to something hybrid like the Crafter SA if it is acoustic with acoustic playability - not an electric with piezo etc.

stimpsonslostson · March 2015

Electro... cutaway... <£250

I'd suggest a second hand Yamaha CPX500ii

Ticks all the boxes. They sound fine unplugged, but improve when you plug in.

They're comfortable to play- smaller than a dread. TOUGH too, perfect for gigging.

close2u · March 2015

Thanks. Well I know about Yamaha in as much as my acoustic is an FG model I have had for donkeys years - not expensive but never let me down. I will have a look out. Any more? Tanglewood, Freshman, Takamine etc?

Gru · March 2015

I have no experience with them, but would a Seemore Duncan Woody XL be worth a try around £60. Granted the lead needs to come out of the sound hole but could be looped over the end strap pin (14ft cable). Sounds ok on the youtube videos I have listened to, but I'm no expert on electros.

Might give you an option while you look Around.

BigLicks67 · March 2015

+1 for a Seymour Duncan Woody (humbucker type) - You could get an LR Baggs M1 but it might be worth more than the guitar same goes for having something professionally fitted.

Don't worry about the wire coming out of the sound hole I used a Fishman Neo D in the past and it never got in the way.

ICBM · March 2015

For £250 you will not get a decent electro-acoustic, even second hand - it's actually the electrics that usually let them down too, so don't assume it will sound OK amplified even if it doesn't unplugged.

But you will get a decent soundhole pickup - it's worth having it fitted properly, with an endpin jack in the guitar unless you're planning to take it out and trade up the guitar - or an undersaddle or internal body transducer and a good outboard preamp. A soundhole pickup could be a simple passive one like the Duncan - which will also need an external preamp (or at least an EQ pedal) for the best results - or an active one like the Baggs or the Fishman Rare Earth which has its preamp built in.

I would advise against putting electrics in the guitar - I really don't understand why it's become the 'accepted' way of doing it, there are many disadvantages compared to a good external preamp, and the only real advantage is that the controls are at your fingertips - but you won't easily be able to adjust them on the fly if you're playing continuously (you will be, in a single guitar/vocal duo) anyway.

Don't worry about a cutaway, for this sort of work you'll almost certainly never be playing that far up. Unless you're capo'd at the 10th fret or something

. I do this sort of thing with a singer too and I don't have a cutaway guitar - my role is effectively rhythm guitar with a bit of embellishment and the only soloing is basically arpeggiated chord stuff - if you try to play 'lead lines' high up it just falls flat.

For £250 you could just about get a simple transducer and a Fishman Aura 16 or a LR Baggs Para DI (especially if you look second hand), which will sound better than any cheap electro-acoustic, bar none.

close2u · March 2015

@icbm Mm Lots to do homework on there. In your opinion, where do 'decent' electros start ... budget wise?

close2u · March 2015

I see a sound hole pickup as a quick fix maybe. I love my acoustic as it is a long time friend. I'm not sure it is all that good in the grand scheme of things. So not sure if it is worth trying. The cutaway is just in case I want to play Wantec Dead Or Alive!

ICBM · March 2015

close2u said:

@icbm Mm Lots to do homework on there. In your opinion, where do 'decent' electros start ... budget wise?

Probably about £500 - second hand lower-end Martin or Taylor budget really.

I'm not just being a snob about it - in a band context you can get away with quite a cheap one because it will be buried in the mix by the other instruments and as long as it sounds bright and zingy it will sound basically OK. But in isolation they tend to sound like a tin can with strings on… you really need the best *guitar* you can get with a pickup, not the other way round. If you can't stretch to that then a semi-decent acoustic guitar with a very good pickup will sound a lot better than a medium-good electro-acoustic.

The other main reason I am so against electro-acoustics is that they are the absolute bane of my life as a repairer - they have numerous reliability issues, and you really don't want that as your sole guitar when you're playing a gig. Keeping the electrics offboard means they can be replaced or bypassed if you have to in a matter of seconds, and the show goes on - even if with a less-good sound. Something as simple as a Boss TU-2 tuner pedal makes a usable backup preamp because it's got a decent buffer in it - you'd lose your EQ, but you could still make it work. If the onboard preamp in an electro-acoustic goes down, you can't - at all.

close2u · March 2015

@icbm This is why I need schooling.

Your comment about lone guitar is wisdom.

Your talk of electrics & pre-amps leaves me confused though.

The idea is that I will plug in to TC Helicon Play GTX then into either a mixer or just DI to active speakers.

Other gear I have / could put in my chain ... Zoom G3X & EHX LPB clone & Boss Bluesdriver. Do they suit what you call a preamp backup? I am in unfamiliar territory here.

ICBM · March 2015

The G3X should do, yes - I can't remember for sure which model you would use but there's bound to be something in it. (I have a G3, but I have to confess I've never tried it for this!)

close2u · March 2015

So, this preamp malarkey ... ??

What is it there for if it has so many disadvantages?

Why is it needed anywhere in the chain?

I have seen 'old-school' electro-acoustics with volume / tone knobs only ... so no on-board tuner or preamp ... do you need to do something different with them?

Is all of this redundant if played through an acoustic amp?

I don't have one and for ease would like to stick with the idea of going straight to PA.

close2u · March 2015

ICBM said:

... or an undersaddle or internal body transducer and a good outboard preamp. ... For £250 you could just about get a simple transducer and a Fishman Aura 16 or a LR Baggs Para DI

Can anyone elaborate? I need more schooling.

close2u · March 2015

ICBM said:

... a semi-decent acoustic guitar with a very good pickup will sound a lot better than a medium-good electro-acoustic.

Rather like saying a half-decent electric through a good amp is better than a decent electric through a half-decent amp.

I understand that.

close2u · March 2015

ICBM said:

Something as simple as a Boss TU-2 tuner pedal makes a usable backup preamp because it's got a decent buffer in it - you'd lose your EQ, but you could still make it work. If the onboard preamp in an electro-acoustic goes down, you can't - at all.

Ok, so I have something that could work as a backup preamp (Zoom G3X) .... but I am still unsure of the mechanics of it all .... what the setup is, how it fits together, how to use it. What a buffer is?

I'm imagining running a chain from guitar (with pickup of some kind) ... to TC Helicon Play GTX .... to 'preamp' unit to PA ...

... and if the preamp breaks, putting a temporary replacement unit (Zoom G3) in there instead.

Is that basically it?

ICBM · March 2015

close2u said:

So, this preamp malarkey ... ??

What is it there for if it has so many disadvantages?
Why is it needed anywhere in the chain?

An acoustic pickup needs a preamp because firstly the output of a typical piezo pickup is very 'weak' and is easily degraded by any kind of loading, including cables unless they're short and high quality; and secondly because the inputs of most PA-type equipment are low impedance (even the 1/4" ones, fairly) because they're designed to receive amplified 'line' signals rather than instruments. A magnetic pickup *might* drive one without too much tone loss, but don't count on it. Using a preamp, or a DI box, cures both problems because it takes the weak high-impedance signal and converts it into a strong low-impedance signal that will drive a long cable and/or a PA input with no tone loss.

close2u said:
I have seen 'old-school' electro-acoustics with volume / tone knobs only ... so no on-board tuner or preamp ... do you need to do something different with them?

Yes, you need to avoid them

. Usually these are passive like the controls on an electric guitar, and are worse than useless - they inherently suck tone. You'll usually only find them on cheap guitars. There are a very few - and some with just a single volume and not even a tone control - which do have a preamp, but they're rare. If there are controls but no battery, pass. The sole exception is something like a Gibson J-160E which has a passive magnetic pickup on the original models, with electric-guitar-like volume and tone controls, but they don't sound like a modern electro-acoustic at all.

close2u said:
Is all of this redundant if played through an acoustic amp?

Yes. An acoustic guitar amp (decent one anyway) will have a dedicated very-high-impedance input designed for an unpreamped pickup signal. You can either use it stand-alone or connect it to the PA as well, when it essentially it becomes a very big preamp with its own monitor speaker. It would give you a bit more flexibility but it isn't really necessary for a simple duo set-up if you have a PA already.

close2u said:
I'm imagining running a chain from guitar (with pickup of some kind) ... to TC Helicon Play GTX .... to 'preamp' unit to PA ...
... and if the preamp breaks, putting a temporary replacement unit (Zoom G3) in there instead.

Is that basically it?

Yes, although you would want the preamp between the guitar and the TC. It needs to comes as soon after the pickup as possible.

In fact, having read more about the TC, which I wasn't familiar with, you may not need the preamp at all - since it seems to have quite a lot of the functions of one. I can't easily find a technical spec, but if you look in the manual and see what the input impedance is - if it's 1Mohm or greater, it's compatible with an unpreamped pickup. If it also gives you enough control over EQ, that's all you will need.

If you get an active soundhole pickup like the Baggs or the Fishman Rare Earth, you definitely shouldn't need anything else.

close2u · March 2015

@ICBM

wow

more wonderful info

so much to take in ....

thank you

RE: the TC Helicon GTX

Here are some specs: (I see something akin to that you mentioned above)

Analog Inputs

Connectors, balanced: Mic.: XLR, Guitar: 1/4″ phone jack, Aux: 1/8″ stereo mini jack
Impedance: Balanced/Unbalanced: Mic.: 2.14/1.07 kOhm
Mic Input Level @ 0 dBFS: -42dBu to +13dBu
EIN @ Max Mic Gain Rg = 150 Ohm : -127 dBu
Mic SNR: > 104 dB
Phantom Power: +48V (on/off via Setup menu)
Guitar Input impedance: 1 MOhm
Guitar Input Level @ 0 dBFS: 12 dBu
Guitar Input SNR: > 115dB
Aux Input Level @ 0dBu: +2dBu
A to D Conversion: 24 bit, 128 x oversampling bitstream, 110dB SNR A-weighted

Analog Outputs

D to A Conversion: 24 bit, 128 x oversampling bitstream, 115dB SNR A-weighted
Connectors, balanced: XLR; Guitar thru 1/4″ TRS
Output Impedance Balanced/ Unbalanced: 80/40 Ohm
XLR Output 0dBFS: +2 dBu
Dynamic Range: > 109 dB, 20 Hz to 20 kHz
Frequency Response: +0.30/-0 dB, 20 Hz to 20 kHz
Headphone Out: 1/8″ Mini stereo jack
Guitar Thru: Buffered: 1/4″ TRS pseudo balanced, 270 Ohm/540 Ohm unbalanced/Balanced

That doesn't make too much sense to me overall ... but I do see 1Mohm.

ICBM · March 2015

Yes, that should be OK. What sort of EQ options does it have?

close2u · March 2015

Not sure, I need to check elsewhere ...

edit

Here is a bit of blurb for now ...

Plug your electric or acoustic guitar into simple-to-use guitar effects including Distortions, Flange, Chorus, Delay, Reverb, EQ and more.

Acoustic – direct and clean to be sent to the PA

close2u · March 2015

Found this ... here

http://www.tc-helicon.com/download/manuals/voicelive-play-gtx/VoiceLive Play GTX Details Manual.pdf

There are four parameters available for guitar effects:
Amp… there are 11 amps to choose from: 1 Acoustic

Drive, Level, Style

Advanced Guitar - you can edit umod, reverb and delay styles, eq, compression, tempo and speaker roll-off
Treble, Bass, Mid, Mid Freq, Comp Ratio, Comp Thresh, µMod Speed, Delay Feedback, Speaker Rolloff

close2u · March 2015

So

given all this goodness, if I don't need a preamp and eq in-built ... am I best off looking for a decent acoustic and getting a pickup separate?

ICBM · March 2015

close2u said:

So
given all this goodness, if I don't need a preamp and eq in-built ... am I best off looking for a decent acoustic and getting a pickup separate?

Yes.

close2u · March 2015

But if my budget increases to say £500 ish that answer will change?

english_bob · March 2015

close2u said:

But if my budget increases to say £500 ish that answer will change?

Not necessarily- if I had *an* acoustic guitar and your original £200 budget I'd blow it all on a pickup (I have an LR Baggs M1a and I'd buy another one in a heartbeat) and just stick it in whatever guitar I had- getting it semi-permanently fitted only requires an endpin jack, and if the shop you get the pickup from does repairs they might do it for free.

If I had £500 to spare I might look at getting a half decent secondhand acoustic guitar too. If you can get to a decent shop, try out some >£300 guitars and see if they feel like an improvement on whatever you have now.

The other great thing about soundhole pickups (the first is that they sound good) is that they're very easy to remove from your old guitar to go in your new one when you upgrade, which is not nearly so easy with piezo pickups.

ICBM · March 2015

close2u said:

But if my budget increases to say £500 ish that answer will change?

No. Not at any price.

You will *always* get a better sound by spending as much on the best acoustic guitar you can afford after buying a good separate pickup and preamp.

Electro-acoustics always compromise one or the other, and even if they don't then they can't be any better than the equivalent set-up with the electrics outside the guitar. Inside the guitar is simply the wrong place to put the electronics.

GavRichList · March 2015

Im sure I'm about to commit a terrible acoustic faux-pas, but I dont play them anymore, so there we go.....

when I did own an acoustic, a million years ago, I always really liked my Takamine G-Series... I'm sure they're well within your budget.

Teetonetal · March 2015

Gru said:

I have no experience with them, but would a Seemore Duncan Woody XL be worth a try around £60. Granted the lead needs to come out of the sound hole but could be looped over the end strap pin (14ft cable). Sounds ok on the youtube videos I have listened to, but I'm no expert on electros.

Might give you an option while you look Around.

I have a woody, not impressed at all - definitely requires a decent preamp / EQ to go with it.

I also love the Takamine G series... Yamaha are good too, would buy either in heartbeat. For your price though I would shop 2nd hand...

close2u · March 2015

Teetonetal said:
I have a woody, not impressed at all - definitely requires a decent preamp / EQ to go with it.

I also love the Takamine G series... ..

Was that in a band situation? I'm thinking acoustic duo only.

Bidley · March 2015

I've started gigging acoustically and what ICBM says about the separate preamp/pickup setup is so true. Sorting out integrated electronics is a bitch too.

I actually gig with a Zoom 504II. Yes it's piss-cheap, but the 'air' setting is actually very nice. It's supposed to simulate a mic'd up acoustic, and while I'm not sure it sounds quite that authentic, it does sound very good isolated. It worked for Ian Anderson

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