Jazz Stuff (the thread formerly known as "Just ordered some jazz guitar books...")

Megii · January 2015

Have been feeling the need for some new approaches/ideas/materials to inject a bit of life into my playing - some fresh stuff to get my teeth into. Anyway just invested in these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Guitar-Comping-Raising-Awareness/dp/0970057644/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422473782&sr=8-1&keywords=andrew+green+jazz+guitar

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Guitar-Technique-Breaking-Barrier/dp/097005761X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1422473782&sr=8-2&keywords=andrew+green+jazz+guitar

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jazz-Guitar-Structures-Boosting-Power/dp/0970057601/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1422473782&sr=8-3&keywords=andrew+green+jazz+guitar

They seem to get good reviews, and looked like good stuff from what I could see in the previews. And then I thought I'd just throw in one of these, since quite cheap:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Licks-Complete-Vocabulary-Improvising-Musici/dp/1575602784/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422473942&sr=1-1&keywords=1001+jazz+licks

And finally tacked onto the order a cheap second-hand copy of this one (less than £3 posted, so what the heck):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bebop-Licks-Guitar-REH-Pro/dp/0634033557/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422474041&sr=1-2&keywords=bebop+jazz+licks

Hope I did OK with these choices, interested to hear from anyone who's already got any of them. Plenty of other books I could easily have found a place for, but one has to stop somewhere...

Jalapeno · January 2015

Found the Andrew Green ones hard going without tab.

The last one, Les Wise's book I love, it's is really useful to dip into, cop a lick, adapt it and then work it into your trick bag.

Only other advice I'd give is to steer clear of anything blathering on about modes (esp. modes of Melodic Minor).

Megii · January 2015

Jalapeno said:

The last one is really useful to dip into, cop a lick, adapt it and then work it into your trick bag

Yep - for a long time, I was a bit anti the lick approach, but in recent years, I've come to realise I'd effectively developed a whole bag of licks of my own anyway, just from noodling and playing jazz with bands (or trying to). So now I'm really into learning licks - a lot to be said for just saying "I like this line, so I'll learn how to play it" - doesn't have to be any more complicated than that really.

Les Wise seems like a great guy and teacher also - not much from him on YouTube, but I like this for example:

I still have a copy of the GIT book "Ten" which has a chapter by him, must dig that out...

Jalapeno · January 2015

<grinds teeth> this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly. It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9, betcha he didn't learn it that way.

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Megii · January 2015

Jalapeno said:

<grinds teeth> this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly. It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Fair enough - I rather like that melodic minor kind of stuff - I guess it works for some people and not others maybe. Ages ago I worked from the two videos Emily Remler made, and she was big on using melodic minor over dominant chords. Although I would admit that I do tend to think more in terms of modes of the melodic minor, going from the root of the chord, rather than the transposing thing. I think in the end you're right about the fingering device point really - one has to be able to zip straight to where the desired notes are, in relation to the chord/root note being played over. Maybe it all amounts to the same thing in the end?

bingefeller · January 2015

Megii the lessons on mikesmasterclass.com by Tom Lippincott are good. I have the modern jazz improv pt ii one and it's great. ,I would recommend the, if you're after more jazz learning ,arterial. http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/index.php/Masters/Description/Tom-Lippincott.html

Megii · January 2015

bingefeller said:

Megii the lessons on mikesmasterclass.com by Tom Lippincott are good. I have the modern jazz improv pt ii one and it's great. ,I would recommend the, if you're after more jazz learning ,arterial. http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/index.php/Masters/Description/Tom-Lippincott.html

Chap who plays an 8 string fan-fret guitar? - I was watching him only the other day on Youtube, a monster player. Cheers for the recommendation anyhow.

Jalapeno · January 2015

Megii said:

Jalapeno said:

<grinds teeth> this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly. It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Fair enough - I rather like that melodic minor kind of stuff - I guess it works for some people and not others maybe. Ages ago I worked from the two videos Emily Remler made, and she was big on using melodic minor over dominant chords. Although I would admit that I do tend to think more in terms of modes of the melodic minor, going from the root of the chord, rather than the transposing thing. I think in the end you're right about the fingering device point really - one has to be able to zip straight to where the desired notes are, in relation to the chord/root note being played over. Maybe it all amounts to the same thing in the end?

Oh agreed, but it's all seems like counter intuitive and memorising arbitrary rules - it ought to be about teaching your ear (but I'm indoctrinated by Jimmy Bruno so take my ranting with a pinch of salt too !

) - I followed both the original ArtistWorks and now independent Jimmy Bruno sites, and he's asked Howard Alden and a bunch of others, on film, if they learned using scales/modes, and pretty much everyone he's interviewed has said no. Carol Kaye has said similar about people who follow scales rather than arpeggios. In a moment of weakness JB has said that this isn't an argument for ignorance - you ultimately have to learn how to interact with other musicians and composers/

Blueingreen · January 2015

I have two of the Andrew Green books (comping and technique). Regretfully I'd have to say I'm a bit unconvinced by their usefulness unless you're a pretty advanced jazz player already (which I'm not).

For comping the books I've found useful are the ones in the Aebersold series by Mike Di Liddo and Barry Galbraith. Once I've mastered those I'll be ready to move on to the Andrew Green.

The most notorious feature of the technique book is Green's insistence on an unorthodox fingering system in which you don't use the same finger to finger adjacent strings on the same fret. It leads to some pretty contorted fingering. I admit I was intrigued by this and have worked with it a bit, because I have some arthritis issues and I thought it might help.

The problem is it's hard to find evidence that this system has been successfully adopted by other players (although I gather Green himself is a great player). You'd need to put in a lot of hours to switch from an orthodox fingering system to his and to be honest it would be blind faith in view of the lack of evidence that it can work well for players other than Green.

viz · January 2015

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to sync to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

bigjon · January 2015

The Les Wise Bebop licks book is a really good resource, although I've only scratched the surface of it.

bigjon · January 2015

viz said:

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to synch to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

Reminds me of this exchange from

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/945/ii-v-i-something-to-try-over-the-v-chord/p1

bigjon said:

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 -

bigjon said:
try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------
----------------------16---13-----------------------
-----------------------------------16---15---13---
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 -

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-
-10-11-13-
-10-11-13-
--------------
--------------
--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 -

bigjon said:
Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

viz · January 2015

Exactly. I remember that!

Megii · January 2015

Jalapeno said:

Megii said:

Jalapeno said:

<grinds teeth> this melodic minor scale mumbo jumbo gets my goat, it over complicates things greatly. It's a guitar FINGERING device, not musical theory. Trying to remember that Gm means play Bb Melodic Minor is bad - you have to memorise crap like this and it's really difficult to just pull out on demand - by the time you remember and apply it - the chord sequence has moved on. He can talk in these terms because his ear pulls him to play it with all the b5, #5, b9, #9

If you stick the the chord arpeggios (even just triads), and Maj/Min251 progressions/licks you're on safe ground, then you can look at the altered notes (or not).

Fair enough - I rather like that melodic minor kind of stuff - I guess it works for some people and not others maybe. Ages ago I worked from the two videos Emily Remler made, and she was big on using melodic minor over dominant chords. Although I would admit that I do tend to think more in terms of modes of the melodic minor, going from the root of the chord, rather than the transposing thing. I think in the end you're right about the fingering device point really - one has to be able to zip straight to where the desired notes are, in relation to the chord/root note being played over. Maybe it all amounts to the same thing in the end?

Oh agreed, but it's all seems like counter intuitive and memorising arbitrary rules - it ought to be about teaching your ear (but I'm indoctrinated by Jimmy Bruno so take my ranting with a pinch of salt too ! ) - I followed both the original ArtistWorks and now independent Jimmy Bruno sites, and he's asked Howard Alden and a bunch of others, on film, if they learned using scales/modes, and pretty much everyone he's interviewed has said no. Carol Kaye has said similar about people who follow scales rather than arpeggios. In a moment of weakness JB has said that this isn't an argument for ignorance - you ultimately have to learn how to interact with other musicians and composers/

Couldn't agree more re "it ought to be about teaching your ear" - indeed it has to about that for me, I always say if you can't hear it, you can't play it. Not withstanding what you say re various pros not learning with scales, I do find they have some value. Also it's not an either or situation anyway - learning about scales does not preclude using arpeggios. And of course JB is absolutely correct that one does have to learn to interact with other musicians and composers...

Megii · January 2015

Blueingreen said:

I have two of the Andrew Green books (comping and technique). Regretfully I'd have to say I'm a bit unconvinced by their usefulness unless you're a pretty advanced jazz player already (which I'm not).

For comping the books I've found useful are the ones in the Aebersold series by Mike Di Liddo and Barry Galbraith. Once I've mastered those I'll be ready to move on to the Andrew Green.

The most notorious feature of the technique book is Green's insistence on an unorthodox fingering system in which you don't use the same finger to finger adjacent strings on the same fret. It leads to some pretty contorted fingering. I admit I was intrigued by this and have worked with it a bit, because I have some arthritis issues and I thought it might help.
The problem is it's hard to find evidence that this system has been successfully adopted by other players (although I gather Green himself is a great player). You'd need to put in a lot of hours to switch from an orthodox fingering system to his and to be honest it would be blind faith in view of the lack of evidence that it can work well for players other than Green.

Does sound like you might have a point re the fingering system thing - maybe I'll work on the exercises and ideas, but keep my own way of fingering. I am I suppose looking for material aimed at a reasonably advanced level, without wishing to sound conceited - more looking for things to expand on what I already know, rather than learning from a basic level. Will see how I get on with the books anyhow.

Megii · January 2015

viz said:

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to sync to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

Me too - some years (decades eek) since I first came across the idea, which was Emily Remler saying "melodic/jazz minor up a half step " (calm down @Jalapeno

). That's great for V type chords, where they are resolving to a I chord. And the other one is Lydian Dominant over a dominant type chord that doesn't resolve in a V to I kind of way (aka melodic/jazz minor up a 5th).

This was the video FWIW:

And this is the other one she made:

Only putting them up because they are such great videos really...

Megii · January 2015

bigjon said:

The Les Wise Bebop licks book is a really good resource, although I've only scratched the surface of it.

Sounds like that one was £2.97 well spent!

Megii · January 2015

bigjon said:

viz said:

I love the super locrian over the V chord - it's been a complete revelation to me and really easy to synch to on the fly. There's lots of little tricks to make it easy.

Reminds me of this exchange from
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/945/ii-v-i-something-to-try-over-the-v-chord/p1

bigjon said:

Barney said:

im expecting bigjon might post some of his ideas as well....its always best to hear ..:)

Your wish etc etc. Grabbed a II V I backing track in G and my acoustic, got youngest daughter to take a vid on my phone. Will post up each of the tabs and say what time in the vid the lick occurs.

First one is at 0:10 -

bigjon said:
try a blues scale in position one (or even a minor pentatonic) 3 frets above the V chord. So over the D7 play F blues scale, eg

---13---16---13-----------------------------------
----------------------16---13-----------------------
-----------------------------------16---15---13---
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

Second one is at 0:18 -

bigjon said:

Another good "sound like you know what you're doing" thing to play over the V7 chord is root note on the top string, up one fret, up another two frets, then extend that pattern over the next two strings. So the pattern is over a D7 into G is

-10-11-13-
-10-11-13-
-10-11-13-
--------------
--------------
--------------

and a sample lick would be

---10---11---13---11---10--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------13---11---10------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------13---11---10---11----
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then I shift that lick up a minor 3rd to illustrate the next point at 0:26 -

bigjon said:
Here's a little secret - because this is symmetrical and can be moved in minor 3rds, ANYTHING that works in a vaguely outside-ish way over a V chord can also be moved in minor 3rds! :-)

Nice post, cheers very much for this @bigjon

equalsql · January 2015

Thanks for the links Megi. I've just grabbed myself a copy of the Bebop Licks book

Megii · January 2015

equalsql said:

Thanks for the links Megi. I've just grabbed myself a copy of the Bebop Licks book

Nice one - hope we both like it!

Jalapeno · January 2015

I do like Emily Remler's vids, her white bread analogy is good.

I think you have to get Inside sounds nailed - be able to consciously do it - before going Outside or it's all too easy to just flap about randomly/blindly without control (or be able to apply taste).

I'm not there yet BTW ....

Megii · January 2015

Jalapeno said:

I do like Emily Remler's vids, her white bread analogy is good.

I think you have to get Inside sounds nailed - be able to consciously do it - before going Outside or it's all too easy to just flap about randomly/blindly without control (or be able to apply taste).

I'm not there yet BTW ....

It's a fair point you make @Jalapeno - I'm afraid I did start out on the melodic minor thing when I watched that video, which would have been early 90's, and certainly I didn't have the inside stuff nailed at that point. Then followed a pretty long break from playing jazz at all (ten years ish), and since then I've worked on both the melodic minor things (it has been years of work for me) AND bringing the more inside stuff up to standard, including such basics as the 7th arpeggios etc. So I do accept I did things in the wrong way/order, and there has been some "patching up" of various holes in my impro skills as a result.

On the other hand, I am very glad I did learn the melodic minor things - it did open my ears up in a good way, and I think my playing is better for it now. I'm long since past the point of no return anyway, the melodic minor stuff is in there now, and no going back. I don't really think of it as "outside" playing FWIW - I'm only using the altered notes in places where it would be possible to add such notes to the underlying chord. As I say though, years of work, and I'm not there yet either - but are we ever?

Jalapeno · January 2015

Many ways up the same mountain grasshopper !

Megii · January 2015

Jalapeno said:

Many ways up the same mountain grasshopper !

But master, how will I know I have found the right mountain?

Blueingreen · January 2015

The melodic minor thing works for me, although I think of it mainly as a fingering pattern that can be used in different harmonic situations - I don't consciously think of different modes of the melodic minor scale, just that choosing which MM scale to use will vary with the chord type and its harmonic function.

jpfamps · January 2015

The melodic minor / lydian dominant approach is really nothing more than a tri-tone sub.

On a ii-V-I in G you play Ab7 lines (with #4 if you use the 4th) over the V (D7). This gives you altered tonality (b9, #9 etc) and gives a satisfactory semitone resolution to the I (Ab7 to G).

Learning licks are a great way of expanding your vocabulary; indeed many great jazzers built their style around licks including Charlie Parker and Charlie Christian.

Megii · January 2015

jpfamps said:

The melodic minor / lydian dominant approach is really nothing more than a tri-tone sub.

On a ii-V-I in G you play Ab7 lines (with #4 if you use the 4th) over the V (D7). This gives you altered tonality (b9, #9 etc) and gives a satisfactory semitone resolution to the I (Ab7 to G).

Learning licks are a great way of expanding your vocabulary; indeed many great jazzers built their style around licks including Charlie Parker and Charlie Christian.

Cheers for that insight @jptamps - I did realise that was a way of looking at things after I'd been working on the melodic minor for a while. But a good point to make, thanks. Intending to take your advice re learning licks also, it does seem to help my own playing, although sometimes it's quite a bit of work before the lick becomes ingrained and natural.

Blueingreen · January 2015

The best source for bebop licks, at least the best I've found. is still David Baker's How to Play Bebop Vol 2. There are 3 volumes but 2, which is a kind of licks library, is the most valuable IMO. It's for all instruments so you have to work out your own fingering (obv there's no tab). I suspect most guitar bebop licks books are derived from Baker.

Melodic Minor doesn't just work on a resolving Dom 7 of course: it works on minor chords where the 1 is a tonic (and minor modal stuff); on the half-diminished chord in a minor 251; on a non-resolving dominant to give a Lydian flavour. The scale starts in a different place (relevant to the root of the chord) in each of these situations, but I just think melodic minor, not that I'm suggesting that's better than other approaches. It's almost the characteristic sound of modern jazz.

Megii · January 2015

Blueingreen said:

The best source for bebop licks, at least the best I've found. is still David Baker's How to Play Bebop Vol 2. There are 3 volumes but 2, which is a kind of licks library, is the most valuable IMO. It's for all instruments so you have to work out your own fingering (obv there's no tab). I suspect most guitar bebop licks books are derived from Baker.

Melodic Minor doesn't just work on a resolving Dom 7 of course: it works on minor chords where the 1 is a tonic (and minor modal stuff); on the half-diminished chord in a minor 251; on a non-resolving dominant to give a Lydian flavour. The scale starts in a different place (relevant to the root of the chord) in each of these situations, but I just think melodic minor, not that I'm suggesting that's better than other approaches. It's almost the characteristic sound of modern jazz.

Think we're basically singing from the same song sheet re Melodic Minor to be honest - anyway, a good recap, and those 4 situations you mention are indeed the ones where I also use MM stuff. A useful scale certainly. I think I have enough lick material to work on for a while, but maybe will invest in the Baker volume one day. Cheers for adding your thoughts to the thread though @Blueingreen, nice to chat on jazz topics with a few people.

Jalapeno · January 2015

Megii said:

Jalapeno said:

Many ways up the same mountain grasshopper !

But master, how will I know I have found the right mountain?

<Waves>

Blueingreen · January 2015

I should caution that I'm a jazz dabbler Megii. I've gigged a variety of other styles but my jazz playing is strictly for my own amusement - I'm not at a level that I think the general public should be subjected to it.

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