So, who is still making thermionic valves?

ROOG · September 2013

It struck me that the relatively small market that is the Guitar amplifier user still wants to buy new valve guitar amplifiers and that they need a source of new valves. Now I'm guessing that many are made in China perhaps on old machinery scavenged from the Europe and the US.

I don't know if these perform as well as the products that "streamed" off the 50's and 60's production lines, in theory with our better understanding of production techniques they should be better.

Do respected names like RCA. Philips, Mullard, Telefunken, etc still make them?

Just interested.

ICBM · September 2013

I think there are specialist valves - for things like high-power radio transmitters - still being made in the West, although I'm not sure that most of the original companies still exist, apart from Philips.

I don't think the Chinese and Russian valves are made on old Western machinery - in most cases the internal details of the valves are different, so it doesn't seem likely even if they had somehow managed to acquire them and ship them over - but the Russians and Czechs would have had no need to anyway since they were making valves at the same time as the Western factories.

In my opinion the modern valves don't perform as well as the old ones. Whether they're just less well-made (I think they probably are, given their cost, and what some of them look like inside) or are not as rigorously tested at the factory, or both, I'm not sure. Bear in mind that the level of quality required for musical applications doesn't come close to that necessary for military, avionics or other critical systems that valves were used for up to the 1970s so there is no real need to make them that well. In my (anecdotal) experience and opinion, they're neither as robust as the old ones nor sound as good. That isn't to say they're terrible or the old ones are perfect, either.

Dave_Mc · September 2013

I just assumed ICBM was making them in his shed.

thermionic · September 2013

ICBM said:

I think there are specialist valves - for things like high-power radio transmitters - still being made in the West, although I'm not sure that most of the original companies still exist, apart from Philips.

I had a job interview a few months ago at a company who started out making valves... and still make them. As you suggest, they only really make high power (kW and above!) magnetrons and such for radiotherapy and radar now. It was interesting to walk around the place - started out in the old building where the glass-blowing and electrodes were made, then the later extension (60s/70s) where it was all transistors. Right at the end was where they make silicon chips. Like travelling through time.

ICBM · September 2013

Dave_Mc said:

I just assumed ICBM was making them in his shed.

I wish!

There is someone who can, though...

monquixote · September 2013

Does the process require they can only be built cost effectively at scale?

If someone could produce really high quality valves in relatively small quantities it would be a real money spinner.

Dave_Mc · September 2013

^^ holy crap

)

ROOG · September 2013

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

I just assumed ICBM was making them in his shed.

I wish!

There is someone who can, though...

Is that the French chap , Claude Paillard?

ROOG · September 2013

This is wonderful work but hardly a production line

Van_Hayden · September 2013

These are the dogs. If you can afford them mind. Made in Prague.

http://www.euroaudioteam.com/en/eat-kt88-diamond-valve-000011.html

ROOG · September 2013

Van_Hayden said:

These are the dogs. If you can afford them mind. Made in Prague.

http://www.euroaudioteam.com/en/eat-kt88-diamond-valve-000011.html

Nice production facility.

ESchap · September 2013

Strong rumours that Svetlana (winged C) have now finally left the audio market. Surely only a matter of time before it becomes un-commercial for the other "mainstream" manufacturers that remain. Would be great if we got a few "boutique" manufacturers like EAT making high quality valves, but of course they are aiming at HiFi market where no price seems to be too high! Unfortunately unlikely that those prices will work for guitar amps.

Then again, those big kW transmitter valves can be used for audio, in this case supported by an orchestra of struggling Mercury vapour rectifiers .... nice! go to 2:40 if you don't want to watch it all.

Van_Hayden · September 2013

To be honest SED priced themselves out of the market for OEMs, that's where the volume is. I suspect new sensor will manage to survive alongside the Chinese offerings for a while. What will suffer is quality as manufacturers go for profit.

Van_Hayden · September 2013

Mercury arc rectifiers look fantastic....although slightly frightening!

ROOG · September 2013

Came across a bunch of big mercury arc rectifiers at a paper mill running motor drives, you could see the blue glow a way off, serious valves!

crunchman · September 2013

If SED are down, that would leave New Sensor (Sovtek and EH, Tung-Sol), JJ (in Slovakia), and 1 or two factories in China to the best of my knowledge.

According to Wikipedia EI stopped valve manufacturing in 2006.

I know that Groove tubes were supposed to have bought up some old Mullard/GE machinery but I don't know if they are doing anything with it.

thermionic · September 2013

I was wondering what happened to Ei, they were the go-to brand for Vox amps a few years ago.

ICBM · September 2013

It looks like they got bought out by a large western company who wanted some other part of their manufacturing, the valve operation was shut down and the equipment scrapped.

There was a rumour on the internet that they got bombed by NATO during the Kosovo war, but I don't think that's true since they didn't shut down until some time after that.

Drew_TNBD · September 2013

I really want to try some solid state valves. I find valves very finicky and they change their tone quite a lot, particularly power valves!

digitalscream · September 2013

Drew_fx said:

I really want to try some solid state valves. I find valves very finicky and they change their tone quite a lot, particularly power valves!

AMT are selling theirs now:

http://eshop.amtelectronics.com/accessories/12ax7ws-warmstone-12ax7-tubes-solid-state-equivalents.html

They're only selling in sets of 4, though. Jet City's are in sets of 3...but you get a choice of gain characteristics.

ROOG · September 2013

I refer to my previous post re: solid state amps. If we all install solid state valves in our amps we end up with solid state amps with transformers and IF this is GOOOD! Then why not design and sell properly optimised solid state amps like this in the first place? And yet no one does.

ICBM · September 2013

Let's wait and see if they sound good... if they do, maybe someone will.

But, there is a big reason not to - transistors and valves operate at totally different voltages normally, roughly a factor of ten apart. Unless you're trying to put solid-state components into an existing valve amp, designers will be very resistant to the difficulty and cost of making solid-state components run so far outside their 'natural' voltage range. My guess is that they will try almost anything to get that performance in the normal voltage range for solid state.

ecc83 · September 2013

ICBM said:

Let's wait and see if they sound good... if they do, maybe someone will.

But, there is a big reason not to - transistors and valves operate at totally different voltages normally, roughly a factor of ten apart. Unless you're trying to put solid-state components into an existing valve amp, designers will be very resistant to the difficulty and cost of making solid-state components run so far outside their 'natural' voltage range. My guess is that they will try almost anything to get that performance in the normal voltage range for solid state.

Well a start has been made using high voltage MOSFETS and their use has gone virtually unnoticed!

Looking at the spec sheet for that SS 12AX7 the parameters are virtually bang on for gm, ra and mu but interelectrode capacitances bother me a bit. I cannot see how a transistor, bipolar or FET, can duplictate Miller capacitance and thus it might be that one of those devices in a front end position would suffer bad RFI?

Then acceptance will be hard won. Many authorities consider the combination of a ss rectifier and a "sag" resistor to be just as good as a thermionic jobbie. Some say not but then not all rectifier valves "sound" the same!

But, while valves are relatively cheap (and nasty!) it will be a long time coming IMHO.

Dave.

ICBM · September 2013

ecc83 said:
Well a start has been made using high voltage MOSFETS and their use has gone virtually unnoticed!

Does that apply to power MOSFETs as well? It's the power stage that's harder to duplicate (as you know!).

ecc83 said:
Looking at the spec sheet for that SS 12AX7 the parameters are virtually bang on for gm, ra and mu but interelectrode capacitances bother me a bit. I cannot see how a transistor, bipolar or FET, can duplictate Miller capacitance and thus it might be that one of those devices in a front end position would suffer bad RFI?

How close is simply adding a tiny capacitor across the input? If it's as close as a solid-state rectifier with a sag resistor...

ecc83 said:
Many authorities consider the combination of a ss rectifier and a "sag" resistor to be just as good as a thermionic jobbie. Some say not but then not all rectifier valves "sound" the same!

I'm pretty sure that this is because valve rectifiers are non-linear - in an odd way which may be harder to duplicate with solid state - although I'm sure not impossible with sensing and control circuitry. At the end of the day it must be the series resistance of the rectifier at varying current draw that matters, there's no other characteristic of it which could.

ecc83 said:
But, while valves are relatively cheap (and nasty!) it will be a long time coming IMHO.

I think it could be the cessation of manufacturing for larger economic or possibly environmental reasons that stops it before price/demand. It appears Svetlana ('winged C') has now stopped audio valve production.

ROOG · September 2013

I agree with much of what has been said above, we need to see if these solid state valve replacements sound ok.

To get full acceptance they will probably have to cover power valves as well.

With the limited R&D available to such a niche market and the 'allure' of the thermionic tube still red hot, (sorry) I cant see them making a break through any time soon.

With the rate of progress in digital modelling and the ease with which it can be developed and manufactured it will be interesting to see how long it takes to overhaul the main stream valve amp market.

martinw · September 2013

ICBM said:
I think it could be the cessation of manufacturing for larger economic or possibly environmental reasons that stops it before price/demand. It appears Svetlana ('winged C') has now stopped audio valve production.

I can't see that happening for many years. All environmentally 'dirty' industries can be cleaned up, it just takes a bit of thought and money. Making SS devices, including ICs is environmentally filthy (weapons grade toxic gases like phosphine, arsine and boron triflouride, heavy metals, gallons of nasty acids and bases, contaminated cooling water, carcinogens by the skip load etc.), just as dirty as making valves, but the scale of that makes it less relevant.

The Chinese lag way behind in this, making their electronic goods cheaper. I heard many stories of scary environmental stuff from guys who'd installed equipment in China when I was in that industry. They are improving, but very, very slowly, and nothing will ever be allowed to stand in the way of profit in that country. They'll be making valves for decades, as long as there's a market. EDIT: And then it'll just move to the next country in the chain; Indonesia? India?

More importantly, JJ seem to manage in Slovakia, an advanced economy in the EU. Their valves are not ridiculously expensive, and they seem to be a stable, profitable company. They must comply with EU environmental regs surely?

As long as there's some profit to be made, somebody, somewhere will find a way.

No the bigger question is the market for valves. If SS replacements (either amps or the valves themselves) can be made that mimic valves, then the market for valves could dry up, at least as far as guitarists are concerned. They'd have to be as cheap or cheaper too, which implies scale, which will be difficult from a standing start. Of course the first thing is the most important; they have to sound as good as valves, in the same way valves sound good, not 'good but different'.

As long as people want valves in enough numbers, they'll be made. Maybe not in as large numbers, and maybe in fewer places, and they might cost more, but still.

bertie · September 2013

Van_Hayden said:

These are the dogs. If you can afford them mind. Made in Prague.

http://www.euroaudioteam.com/en/eat-kt88-diamond-valve-000011.html

EAT - KT88 DIAMOND MATCHED TUBES (PR)

Price: $900.00

ROOG · September 2013

Ouch!

ecc83 · September 2013

Yes IC, "we" can add a 100puff or so cap to an amp's front end but if these devices are supposed to be a direct "drop in"?

MOSFET power outputs? I think they are simply too different from even pentodes (massive gm) in their characteristics to ever sound right?

Re valve production etc: I was told some time ago that the hi-fi industry uses far more valves than the gitamp makers? If that is indeed the case the audiophools will just keep ponying up as the cost rises to clean up the various acts.

Dave.

ICBM · September 2013

ecc83 said:

Yes IC, "we" can add a 100puff or so cap to an amp's front end but if these devices are supposed to be a direct "drop in"?

True - I assumed there must be an equivalent inside the device. If not, why not?

ecc83 said:
MOSFET power outputs? I think they are simply too different from even pentodes (massive gm) in their characteristics to ever sound right?

AMT seems to be producing power valve equivalents too, although I'm not sure they're available for sale yet. Interesting to know how they work...

ecc83 said:
Re valve production etc: I was told some time ago that the hi-fi industry uses far more valves than the gitamp makers? If that is indeed the case the audiophools will just keep ponying up as the cost rises to clean up the various acts.

I find that hard to believe. Even though the market for hi-fi is far larger than that for musical instrument amps, the proportion of valve amps is much smaller, and hi-fi amps don't tend to run valves at the sort of stress levels guitar amps do and kill them in short order.

I could certainly see audiophools spending whatever it takes to keep their gear running, but don't they often use different types anyway? Big triodes etc.

Dave_Mc · September 2013

ICBM said:

and hi-fi amps don't tend to run valves at the sort of stress levels guitar amps do and kill them in short order.

Don't be silly, it's those £12,000 power cables that stops them from killing the valves >:D<

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So, who is still making thermionic valves?

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