Nut slots too shallow from factory - is it generally just the Big Two?

noisepolluter · October 2023

I’ve bought a couple of new Fenders and Gibsons in recent years (mostly online) and without exception the nut slots weren’t deep enough. The extent varied - some were borderline but some were way off, and the rest of the guitar would then have a bit of a fudged setup with a fair amount of neck relief but very low saddles to compensate. Cue a quick trip to the local tech for 5 minutes with the nut files (no way I’d ever trust myself), straighten the neck, raise the saddles and off we go, all fine from that point.

Just curious if this is largely a Fender/Gibson thing or if it’s creeping in across the board where manufacturers err on the side of caution/sloppiness with depth of nut slots? The rest of the fretwork has generally been decent (I realise I’ve been slightly asking for trouble buying online, never actually did it before lockdown and any further purchases will be face to face unless it’s something a long distance away that’s a tempting enough deal to have a punt)

DartmoorHedgehog · October 2023

I suppose the idea is that the customer can always lower the strings at the nut but can't raise them. But I agree some guitars are sold with far higher nuts than anybody would really want.

EDIT: and it's definitely not just Fender and Gibson. In fact, the only Gibson I've got (and it's not an expensive one - a Melody Maker Special) had the nut pretty much right for my taste. A Hagstrom and a Tanglewood acoustic were far too high.

ICBM · October 2023

It’s all guitars other than ones which get a full custom shop level setup before they leave the factory.

Manufacturing always has tolerances, and since the nut being too low is an outright fault - causing buzzing at the first fret - they always set the centre of the tolerance range too high. Depending on how wide the tolerance is, the nut height will thus vary from very slightly too high to quite a lot too high.

Funkfingers · October 2023

"Too high" is subjective. So are string gauge choices. What is right for one customer could be completely wrong for another.

GavRichList · October 2023

Rickenbacker also fall into this category. But as others have said, to some extent it’s personal preference… though I definitely think they air on the side of caution with them from the factory. Can’t stick it back on etc etc.

HAL9000 · October 2023

I tried out more than half a dozen guitars the other week in my search for another Strat. Most were pretty badly set up from the factory. String that choked out on whole-tone bends, saddles that didn’t even attempt to follow the fretboard radius, badly cut nuts, etc. Things like this aren’t down to aren’t personal preference; they’re just plain wrong. When I’m spending around £1000 of my hard earned it’s not unreasonable to expect better.
(Most of the instruments I tried were Fenders. I also tried out two or three PRS Silver Sky SEs where the set up was pretty much spot on. In the past I’ve owned a couple of Yamaha guitars which were absolutely spot on. However they were bought from Yamaha London who I believe set up all their guitars before putting them on display.)

CarbonCopy · October 2023

I bought a G&L Espada (which incidentally arrived 2 years ago today) and only some of the nut slots were too high (I think B and G). I could understand it being about preference to leave all of the nut slots high to account for individual taste, but inconsistent slot depths suggests a lack of quality control.

That being said, the rest of the guitar was flawless and I was very impressed with the fret work. It only took a few minutes with fret files to dial it in, but should I have needed to do it on an £1800 guitar?

p90fool · October 2023

Funkfingers said:

"Too high" is subjective. So are string gauge choices. What is right for one customer could be completely wrong for another.

Surely a slot's height should be assessed like any other fret, in that there is absolutely a correct height just like all the others?

SteveRobinson · October 2023

p90fool said:

Funkfingers said:

"Too high" is subjective. So are string gauge choices. What is right for one customer could be completely wrong for another.

Surely a slot's height should be assessed like any other fret, in that there is absolutely a correct height just like all the others?

Yes some leeway is possible but too high and the strings are pulled sharp at the first few frets.

dazzajl · October 2023

Gretsch should have ‘poorly cut nut’ on the spec sheet.

The height is usually not the worst problem, it’s narrow slots that pinch the strings with them. And since most have Bigsbys, it’s really not a good starting point.

noisepolluter · October 2023

Really interesting to hear folks’ experiences and views, thanks for the replies.

On balance it seems fairly likely to need to get a nut tweaked unless it’s custom shop or equivalent level.

skunkwerx · October 2023

I think every single one of my guitars have benefitted from sorting the nut Fender, Gibson, LTD, Benton, Ibanez, Gretsch.

ICBM · October 2023

SteveRobinson said:

p90fool said:

Surely a slot's height should be assessed like any other fret, in that there is absolutely a correct height just like all the others?

Yes some leeway is possible but too high and the strings are pulled sharp at the first few frets.

Exactly - contrary to popular belief it's not really a 'preference', there is a correct height which is pretty much universal no matter how hard you play. There might be a *very* small amount of increase if you really batter the strings, but if you do that then you're going to get rattling on any fretted note as well.

Most people don't actually realise how well a guitar can play and still not rattle with the nut cut properly to the right height, because almost all guitars have it too high - many even after a set-up, if not done by someone who's very fussy about it. Most of the intonation problems players complain about at the first few frets are caused by the nut being too high too - although there's a physics reason (string flexibility at the nut) why a compensated nut can still improve things further, it's still important to have one of those set properly low enough too.

barnstorm · October 2023

dazzajl said:

Gretsch should have ‘poorly cut nut’ on the spec sheet.

The height is usually not the worst problem, it’s narrow slots that pinch the strings with them. And since most have Bigsbys, it’s really not a good starting point.

That true of the Japanese ones, in your experience? So many people rave about how well put together they are.

Keefy · October 2023

barnstorm said:

dazzajl said:

Gretsch should have ‘poorly cut nut’ on the spec sheet.

The height is usually not the worst problem, it’s narrow slots that pinch the strings with them. And since most have Bigsbys, it’s really not a good starting point.

That true of the Japanese ones, in your experience? So many people rave about how well put together they are.

Some years ago I bought a set of nut files from StewMac and they have more than paid for themselves. I have used them on many of my guitars, including a MIJ Gretsch, a Custom Shop Gibson, a MIM Fender, and one from an independent boutique US maker. I’d say more often than not, nuts are cut higher than they need to be - but why, I know not.

dazzajl · October 2023

barnstorm said:

dazzajl said:

Gretsch should have ‘poorly cut nut’ on the spec sheet.

The height is usually not the worst problem, it’s narrow slots that pinch the strings with them. And since most have Bigsbys, it’s really not a good starting point.

That true of the Japanese ones, in your experience? So many people rave about how well put together they are.

In my experience, you’re more likely to need to finish the nut on the Japanese models than the cheaper ones. I would never let that stop me getting one though, it’s not a big job to get them playing nicely and they are well worth the effort.

barnstorm · October 2023

dazzajl said:
In my experience, you’re more likely to need to finish the nut on the Japanese models than the cheaper ones.

Hm. Have bought my share of guitars knowing that I’d need to do some fettling, but it does bug me past a certain price point.

Generally at e.g. Gretsch Pro line money I’m buying for attention to detail or I’m not buying at all.

dazzajl · October 2023

barnstorm said:

dazzajl said:
In my experience, you’re more likely to need to finish the nut on the Japanese models than the cheaper ones.

Hm. Have bought my share of guitars knowing that I’d need to do some fettling, but it does bug me past a certain price point.

Generally at e.g. Gretsch Pro line money I’m buying for attention to detail or I’m not buying at all.

Completely understand that. I spent many years bemoaning that Gretsch wouldn’t make a guitar that just worked and didn’t still have all the issues that 50s manufactured guitars had. Then they brought out the Players Edition models that were exactly that and I didn’t like them.

Turns out that for me, all those little foibles are an important part of the recipe. Makes them a little harder to get set up nicely but seems it’s my only way to get that Gretsch experience quite right.

BigPaulie · October 2023

I don't buy the "personal preference" argument.

There is absolutely a correct action height at the first fret.

If you barre across the first fret (use a capo) and measure the action at the second fret, the action at the first fret when the strings are open should be the same. Any lower is definitively too low. Any more than 0.1mm (insert archaic Imperial measurement here) higher is too high (unless playing exclusively with slide).

The issue of too high an action at the nut is the single factor that is most responsible for beginners giving up.

BigPaulie · October 2023

Keefy said:

Some years ago I bought a set of nut files from StewMac and they have more than paid for themselves. I have used them on many of my guitars, including a MIJ Gretsch, a Custom Shop Gibson, a MIM Fender, and one from an independent boutique US maker. I’d say more often than not, nuts are cut higher than they need to be - but why, I know not.

Because the vast majority of guitars (even really expensive ones like USA built Rickenbacker, Fender and Gibsons) are built by people who just happen to work in a guitar factory and don't have any clue about what a good setup looks or feels like.

ICBM · October 2023

BigPaulie said:

I don't buy the "personal preference" argument.

There is absolutely a correct action height at the first fret.

If you barre across the first fret (use a capo) and measure the action at the second fret, the action at the first fret when the strings are open should be the same. Any lower is definitively too low. Any more than 0.1mm (insert archaic Imperial measurement here) higher is too high (unless playing exclusively with slide).

The issue of too high an action at the nut is the single factor that is most responsible for beginners giving up.

This. It makes the guitar uncomfortable or even painful to play, and makes tuning it difficult because the fretted notes then sound out.

I prefer the fretting at the third fret method to check height - it’s more accurate and independent of the relief or action. When fretting at the third and checking the gap between the string and the first fret, it should be tiny - between about 1/4 and 1/10 of the string diameter, ie only .001” or .002” on the top E string, up to about .005 to .010” on the low E.

It’s very rare to find any guitar with a factory or shop set-up that low.

BigPaulie · October 2023

ICBM said:

BigPaulie said:

I don't buy the "personal preference" argument.

There is absolutely a correct action height at the first fret.

If you barre across the first fret (use a capo) and measure the action at the second fret, the action at the first fret when the strings are open should be the same. Any lower is definitively too low. Any more than 0.1mm (insert archaic Imperial measurement here) higher is too high (unless playing exclusively with slide).

The issue of too high an action at the nut is the single factor that is most responsible for beginners giving up.

This. It makes the guitar uncomfortable or even painful to play, and makes tuning it difficult because the fretted notes then sound out.

I prefer the fretting at the third fret method to check height - it’s more accurate and independent of the relief or action. When fretting at the third and checking the gap between the string and the first fret, it should be tiny - between about 1/4 and 1/10 of the string diameter, ie only .001” or .002” on the top E string, up to about .005 to .010” on the low E.

It’s very rare to find any guitar with a factory or shop set-up that low.

I agree largely, though prefer the action at the first fret to be the same for all strings.

My reasoning is that if you play with a capo on any given fret the effective "zero fret" height is the same across all strings. I like the nut slot height to feel like a "zero fret". I am splitting hairs, however. The tolerances at this height are nigh on un-measurable.

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Nut slots too shallow from factory - is it generally just the Big Two?

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