Any deep MIDI experts able to explain this Boss issue for me?

TheBigDipper · October 2023

I've put this in FX because it looks like the best place to find MIDI people. It's a bit wordy, sorry.

I know quite a bit about MIDI as a user of MIDI but don't know anything about the actual way messages are sent under the covers by the software in use. I've had a problem with the control of a couple of pedals that obey MIDI PC and CC commands - but only if the controller is a Boss ES-5. Every other MIDI controller I've tried is fine.

So, as I explained in in a different thread, I sent a Plethora X3 back to Thomann because I couldn't get MIDI control to work properly with my ES-5. The thread is here if you're interested...

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/254178/npd-plethora-x3-but-its-going-back#latest

To summarise:

I wanted to send 3 CC commands to turn the 3 effects loaded in the X3 either on or off. The ES-5 lets you define and send MIDI commands automatically when an ES-5 preset is loaded. I've been using it to send PC commands and CC commands to load new presets on a Ridge overdrive, a Boss EQ-200 and a Mobius, but the most I send per device (each on their own MIDI channel) has been one PC command and one CC command. It's been working.

For the X3, I was sending 3 CC commands. Only the first CC command was being processed by the X3 and the others were being ignored. Changing the order of those commands got a different result, but it was always just the first command being processed. Suspecting the X3 might be faulty, I tried another MIDI controller, a Hotone Ampero Control. It worked. So I raised a ticket with TC Electronic and with Boss. I'm still waiting for TCE to respond, but Boss has been helpful, but unable to resolve the issue.

One X3 user with an ES-5 says they found a workaround - which was to send each of the 3 commands on 3 different MIDI channels and having the X3 listen to Omni. I tried it, and that did work. But then the X3 was also responding to commands intended for the Ridge, etc., and I was getting unwanted behaviour.

After the X3, I decided to try a Source Audio Collider. That also could not process two CC commands at once, only processing the first one.

From communicating with users on the Internet, I'm being told that Morningstar and Pirate MIDI controllers work fine with the X3 and the Collider, but that ES-5 and ES-8 users have had problems. But some of those users say that Boss pedals have no problem processing multiple CC commands. So it starts to look like the problem is generated from the Boss end of things, not the receiving pedals.

Boss support is telling me that the ES-5 sends MIDI commands in a very fast way and that some pedals cannot cope with the commands arriving so quickly. Well, electricity runs at the speed of light and that's very fast, so I don't know what they mean by that. Why would they be able to do something that Morningstar cannot? The initiating MIDI controller has no idea that the receiving pedal might need a slower set of messages and therefore send them slowly.

I'm starting to suspect that Boss is either doing something non-standard (or just plain wrong) that most people never notice because they don't ask their ES-5 unit to do that sort of stuff.

The fact that Boss units will work when other vendors pedals will not is making me think Boss is taking messages intended for the same channel and putting them into packets that only a Boss pedal can decode. I can understand Boss not wanting to admit that to me. It's either a kosher MIDI protocol to bundle up messages and reduce MIDI traffic that the other pedal vendors don't support or it's proprietary to Boss. So, with my limited knowledge of the physical messages sent, what can I do?

I've used MIDI Monitor on my Mac to log what the ES-5 and Hotone controllers are sending, but the messages look identical. I've no way of actually running a physical trace to see the machine code level messages being transmitted.

Anyone able to explain this to me?

abw1989 · October 2023

I had an ES-5 very briefly for the exact same issue.

I was sending multiple messages to a HX Stomp, and not getting the right response to them. It almost seemed like it was Stomp was queuing the Boss' messages then only relaying one at a time the next time a message was sent. Like you I used a MIDI monitor and it seemed like the Boss was sending correctly.

One you thing you might be able to try is to put a message delay in between each CC, maybe even a millisecond, so it sends three separate messages instead of three commands on one message. I'm 80% confident this is a feature in the ES-5

In the end I sacked the unit and went down the Morningstar route. It was more expensive, yes, but you definitely get what you pay for with their stuff.

Sporky · October 2023

Most likely, Boss have properly read the standard and fully implemented it. The others will have implemented what they think they need to, possibly saving money on control processor speed, so when legitimate messages are sent with the minimum standard-compliant spacing, the Boss stuff copes, but the other stuff drops what it can't handle.

A delay between messages might well solve the problem, but my suspicion is that Boss aren't to blame.

GavRichList · October 2023

Sporky said:

Most likely, Boss have properly read the standard and fully implemented it. The others will have implemented what they think they need to, possibly saving money on control processor speed, so when legitimate messages are sent with the minimum standard-compliant spacing, the Boss stuff copes, but the other stuff drops what it can't handle.

A delay between messages might well solve the problem, but my suspicion is that Boss aren't to blame.

I understand the theory behind that comment and the assumption that boss would know what they’re doing, but in my experience as a fully fledged midi nerd, boss implement midi HORRIBLY. To the point in fact, that I just won’t bother with their midi pedals now.

Sporky · October 2023

If Midi monitor shows the messages as correctly formed then they are correctly formed, surely?

Just for reference, I've built my own MIDI endpoints from UARTs (way before Arduinos made it easy), so I do have a passable working knowledge. My first MIDI project was a programmable preset recaller for a Boss ME5.

roberty · October 2023

I would check you are on the latest firmware as a precaution

TheBigDipper · October 2023

roberty said:

I would check you are on the latest firmware as a precaution

Of course. And "Yes" on all devices... :-) But it's fair enough to ask.

TheBigDipper · October 2023

Sporky said:

If Midi monitor shows the messages as correctly formed then they are correctly formed, surely?

Just for reference, I've built my own MIDI endpoints from UARTs (way before Arduinos made it easy), so I do have a passable working knowledge. My first MIDI project was a programmable preset recaller for a Boss ME5.

Well, I'm not sure how much MIDI Monitor does to the message streams before presenting them (and it's mainly in text format, very little hex). If Boss are packaging up the messages (in a kosher MIDI format) then I wouldn't be surprised if MIDI Monitor unpacks them to display them for me.

roberty · October 2023

TheBigDipper said:

roberty said:

I would check you are on the latest firmware as a precaution

Of course. And "Yes" on all devices... :-) But it's fair enough to ask.

Yeah sometimes MIDI is implemented with bugs, sometimes they even mention it in the release notes ;-)

There was a MIDI related bug in the MD-200 that effed me up for a hot minte:

When a RATE CC parameter is received from an external MIDI device, the reading shown on the display changes, but the RATE time does not change.

Sporky · October 2023

TheBigDipper said:

If Boss are packaging up the messages (in a kosher MIDI format) then I wouldn't be surprised if MIDI Monitor unpacks them to display them for me.

I'm not sure MIDI has such a feature. CCs are pretty simple - CC number and value to set.

TheBigDipper · October 2023

Sporky said:

TheBigDipper said:

If Boss are packaging up the messages (in a kosher MIDI format) then I wouldn't be surprised if MIDI Monitor unpacks them to display them for me.

I'm not sure MIDI has such a feature. CCs are pretty simple - CC number and value to set.

I'm no expert, so if you say so... :-) That's why I put the post up. And I'm grateful for the replies and insight. Which makes me ask myself why the same CC commands (according to MIDI Monitor) from the ES-5 and the Ampero Control worked when sent to the X3 and Collider by the Control but not when by the ES-5.

Sporky · October 2023

Can you try adding a delay between the messages as abw1989 suggested?

TheBigDipper · October 2023

Sporky said:

Can you try adding a delay between the messages as abw1989 suggested?

I couldn’t find that feature in the manual. Can you help?

Sporky · October 2023

Nope - I don't have one, sorry.

octatonic · October 2023

Sporky said:

Can you try adding a delay between the messages as abw1989 suggested?

This may well work.

MIDI messages are made up of 8-bit bytes that are transmitted serially at a rate of 31.25 kbit/s which is a division of 1 MHz, a common clock speed for processors in the 1980's.

Some receivers are not able to process the incoming stream reliably at the speed the transmit device sends it.

If you want to test it then use a midi sequencer (on a computer) to send the exact same commands spaced apart slightly.
Logic has some very useful transformers for this.
If I get a chance I can show you an environment set up that will do it (tell me if you have Logic though so I don't waste my time with it).

TheBigDipper · October 2023

octatonic said:

Sporky said:

Can you try adding a delay between the messages as abw1989 suggested?

This may well work.

MIDI messages are made up of 8-bit bytes that are transmitted serially at a rate of 31.25 kbit/s which is a division of 1 MHz, a common clock speed for processors in the 1980's.

Some receivers are not able to process the incoming stream reliably at the speed the transmit device sends it.

If you want to test it then use a midi sequencer (on a computer) to send the exact same commands spaced apart slightly.
Logic has some very useful transformers for this.
If I get a chance I can show you an environment set up that will do it (tell me if you have Logic though so I don't waste my time with it).

Love to try. I have Logic, but I’m not home until Sunday. Currently at the departure gate waiting for it to open.

TheBigDipper · October 2023

Overnight, I got a msg from Source Audio regarding the Collider, MIDI and the ES-5. Here it is:

/starts/Thanks for reaching out to us!

Unfortunately, it sounds like what you're describing is a hardware limitation on the Collider, the MIDI stack isn't usually able to handle more than 1 or 2 CC messages at once, it will drop the latter message. We're aware that this is causing headaches for people wanting more granular MIDI control, and we are hoping to address this shortcoming on future products./ends/

It would be nice if they made that limitation clear in their tech spec…

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Any deep MIDI experts able to explain this Boss issue for me?

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