Why do lower output pickups sometimes sound louder?

jaymenon · October 2023

I tried a set of 7.4 / 8.2kΩ AlNiCo2 humbuckers on a partscaster strat - and they were remarkably loud, compared to a set of higher output pickups...

Is this unusual? Is there an explanation?

Likewise a set of Gibson 57 classics on a Les Paul - very loud indeed.

stickyfiddle · October 2023

If they're louder they're not lower output, whatever the marketing copy tells you...

thermionic · October 2023

There are other factors that affect a pickup’s voltage output, dc resistance is only of them.

elstoof · October 2023

You can’t rely on DC a resistance alone to determine how a pickup will sound

Sassafras · October 2023

They might sound clearer and less compressed which could be percieved as louder.

prowla · October 2023

What are you using to measure output?

BigPaulie · October 2023

Are they quantifiably lower output (i.e. has the output been measured in terms of dB or voltage)?

If so other factors can contribute to a "perceived" higher output. Pickup height, string gauge, strength of magnet, frequency response of different pickups (some frequencies seem louder than others) etc. etc. etc.

OilCityPickups · October 2023

I possibly will be shouting this with my dying breath
RESISTANCE IS NOT A MEASURE OF OUTPUT!!!!!!!
If you know nothing about what gauge the wire the pickup was wound with or what magnet is used then resistance is utterly meaningless on its own ... useless ... and yes ... RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

jaymenon · October 2023

I wasn't using DCR - but was comparing these to a DiMarzio Tone Zone which is recognised as a high output job (irrespective of its DCR...)

sweepy · October 2023

Maybe it’s the hotter pickups magnetic field dampening g the string vibrations, this is why some guitars sound louder with heavier strings

rze99 · October 2023

In all my 45 years of guitar playing I have never experienced lower output pickups sounding louder than higher output pickups

OilCityPickups · October 2023

rze99 said:

In all my 45 years of guitar playing I have never experienced lower output pickups sounding louder than higher output pickups

Agreed ... only where people either use DC resistance to equal 'power' or accept the advertising blurb from a manufacturer that a particular pickup is 'powerful' The only real way measure of a pickup's output is millivolts. Or the mark one ear!

roberty · October 2023

The ear is more sensitive at certain frequencies, so that could be a factor

theatreanchor · October 2023

OilCityPickups said:

I possibly will be shouting this with my dying breath
RESISTANCE IS NOT A MEASURE OF OUTPUT!!!!!!!
If you know nothing about what gauge the wire the pickup was wound with or what magnet is used then resistance is utterly meaningless on its own ... useless ... and yes ... RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

This is a hard lesson to learn. I'm still not sure I have accepted its truth.

timmypix · October 2023

My first gut reaction was to ask if the pickups were closer to the strings, but then remembered I have encountered the same thing - I have one guitar that is just louder than others and I have no idea why.

One of my Les Pauls came stock with the 57 Classic/Plus set, and I was surprised how much louder it was. When recording, it was coming in to my interface/DAW with a stronger/louder signal than my other guitars, including other Les Pauls, with ostensibly hotter pickups. But I've since swapped the 57s out and had 3 low output Bare Knuckle sets in there over the last few years and it's still consistently a louder guitar, and I have no idea why! I've even changed the pots from the stock 300K pots to some nice 500K ones, so it's not those. Could it be the output jack?

It's not louder acoustically, it just sends a stronger signal to an amp/interface. It's not the pickups, as it's had multiple sets that have been in other guitars and haven't been as loud, and I am accounting for pickup height as I don't like them too close, so they'll be the same height as I have them in other guitars. The only thing that makes it different to other guitars in my collection is that it's chambered, but I'd be stunned if that's the reason.

Cirrus · October 2023

@timmypix ;The chambers have super distortions hidden in them. Mystery solved. NEXT!

I've noticed it too between different guitars. My Explorer tends to be pretty moderate/ sweet sounding. I had an LP that seemed to make every pickup I put in it quite strong and forward sounding.

ICBM · October 2023

timmypix said:

My first gut reaction was to ask if the pickups were closer to the strings, but then remembered I have encountered the same thing - I have one guitar that is just louder than others and I have no idea why.

One of my Les Pauls came stock with the 57 Classic/Plus set, and I was surprised how much louder it was. When recording, it was coming in to my interface/DAW with a stronger/louder signal than my other guitars, including other Les Pauls, with ostensibly hotter pickups. But I've since swapped the 57s out and had 3 low output Bare Knuckle sets in there over the last few years and it's still consistently a louder guitar, and I have no idea why! I've even changed the pots from the stock 300K pots to some nice 500K ones, so it's not those. Could it be the output jack?

It's not louder acoustically, it just sends a stronger signal to an amp/interface. It's not the pickups, as it's had multiple sets that have been in other guitars and haven't been as loud, and I am accounting for pickup height as I don't like them too close, so they'll be the same height as I have them in other guitars. The only thing that makes it different to other guitars in my collection is that it's chambered, but I'd be stunned if that's the reason.

Yes, it’s the neck and body resonance. It may not be audible acoustically, but if the whole guitar is vibrating along with the strings then the string movement relative to the pickups is increased.

It’s measurable if you want to be scientific about it.

timmypix · October 2023

ICBM said:

timmypix said:

My first gut reaction was to ask if the pickups were closer to the strings, but then remembered I have encountered the same thing - I have one guitar that is just louder than others and I have no idea why.

One of my Les Pauls came stock with the 57 Classic/Plus set, and I was surprised how much louder it was. When recording, it was coming in to my interface/DAW with a stronger/louder signal than my other guitars, including other Les Pauls, with ostensibly hotter pickups. But I've since swapped the 57s out and had 3 low output Bare Knuckle sets in there over the last few years and it's still consistently a louder guitar, and I have no idea why! I've even changed the pots from the stock 300K pots to some nice 500K ones, so it's not those. Could it be the output jack?

It's not louder acoustically, it just sends a stronger signal to an amp/interface. It's not the pickups, as it's had multiple sets that have been in other guitars and haven't been as loud, and I am accounting for pickup height as I don't like them too close, so they'll be the same height as I have them in other guitars. The only thing that makes it different to other guitars in my collection is that it's chambered, but I'd be stunned if that's the reason.

Yes, it’s the neck and body resonance. It may not be audible acoustically, but if the whole guitar is vibrating along with the strings then the string movement relative to the pickups is increased.

It’s measurable if you want to be scientific about it.

Well I'll be! Thanks ICBM

and apologies to OP for the slight tangent there, not sure if it's helpful or not.

FelineGuitars · October 2023

We generlly tend to make guitars that are loud acoustically - lots of resonance etc , and I find it does add a little to the plugged in sound IMO.

With pickups turn count of the wire is more critical than DCR and the magnet makes a HUGE difference

Also pickups wound with a finer gauge wire can sound more compressed which in turn makes them sound less "peaky"

jaymenon · October 2023

Thank you all for your interesting replies, I found there is a lot to learn and think about there...

Funkfingers · October 2023

The only true test is to install the pickup in question and play it, your way, through your amp. Simple trial and error.

I can tell you what pickups please me (my technique, my amp, my venue) but this is no guarantee that the same pickup will suit you.

elstoof · October 2023

Magnet composition, placement in the pickup, shape of the bar or slugs, gauss level, wire gauge, wind level, so many factors in how the pickup with perform that you have to doff your cap to folks like Oil City for juggling it all

prowla · October 2023

OilCityPickups said:

I possibly will be shouting this with my dying breath
RESISTANCE IS NOT A MEASURE OF OUTPUT!!!!!!!
If you know nothing about what gauge the wire the pickup was wound with or what magnet is used then resistance is utterly meaningless on its own ... useless ... and yes ... RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

PRECISELY!!! :-)

The only circumstance would be if all other aspects of the pickup were identical (magnets, wire batch, pole pieces, etc.) except the number of turns in the coil; then you could say the higher resistance indicates a longer wire, which indicates more coils, which then suggests a higher output.

Anything else is foo.

Philly_Q · October 2023

OilCityPickups said:

rze99 said:

In all my 45 years of guitar playing I have never experienced lower output pickups sounding louder than higher output pickups

Agreed ... only where people either use DC resistance to equal 'power' or accept the advertising blurb from a manufacturer that a particular pickup is 'powerful' The only real way measure of a pickup's output is millivolts. Or the mark one ear!

jaymenon said:

I wasn't using DCR - but was comparing these to a DiMarzio Tone Zone which is recognised as a high output job (irrespective of its DCR...)

Incidentally, DiMarzio is one of the few manufacturers which states the output in millivolts on their site. I've no concept of what 375 mV "sounds" like in absolute terms, but you can compare with their other pickups.

The only time I remember noticing a huge disparity in output - or volume - was when I had a DiMarzio MegaDrive and PAF in my old Hamer Vector. The PAF (neck position) was only about half as loud as the bridge pickup.

BigPaulie · October 2023

Philly_Q said:

OilCityPickups said:

rze99 said:

In all my 45 years of guitar playing I have never experienced lower output pickups sounding louder than higher output pickups

Agreed ... only where people either use DC resistance to equal 'power' or accept the advertising blurb from a manufacturer that a particular pickup is 'powerful' The only real way measure of a pickup's output is millivolts. Or the mark one ear!

jaymenon said:

I wasn't using DCR - but was comparing these to a DiMarzio Tone Zone which is recognised as a high output job (irrespective of its DCR...)

Incidentally, DiMarzio is one of the few manufacturers which states the output in millivolts on their site. I've no concept of what 375 mV "sounds" like in absolute terms, but you can compare with their other pickups.

The only time I remember noticing a huge disparity in output - or volume - was when I had a DiMarzio MegaDrive and PAF in my old Hamer Vector. The PAF (neck position) was only about half as loud as the bridge pickup.

Yeah, but that mV reading is only applicable to the particular way that they test the pickups.

I don't know what methodology they use to carry out their tests, but in order for the 375nV reading to mean anything it would have to be compared against another pickup using the exact same setup and inputs.

It's conceivable that the Tone Zone would provide less output if it were setup in the bridge position using .008 gauge strings vs a PAF 36TH Anniversary in the neck position using .011 gauge strings.

nacnudnai · October 2023

BigPaulie said:

Philly_Q said:

OilCityPickups said:

rze99 said:

In all my 45 years of guitar playing I have never experienced lower output pickups sounding louder than higher output pickups

Agreed ... only where people either use DC resistance to equal 'power' or accept the advertising blurb from a manufacturer that a particular pickup is 'powerful' The only real way measure of a pickup's output is millivolts. Or the mark one ear!

jaymenon said:

I wasn't using DCR - but was comparing these to a DiMarzio Tone Zone which is recognised as a high output job (irrespective of its DCR...)

Incidentally, DiMarzio is one of the few manufacturers which states the output in millivolts on their site. I've no concept of what 375 mV "sounds" like in absolute terms, but you can compare with their other pickups.

The only time I remember noticing a huge disparity in output - or volume - was when I had a DiMarzio MegaDrive and PAF in my old Hamer Vector. The PAF (neck position) was only about half as loud as the bridge pickup.

Yeah, but that mV reading is only applicable to the particular way that they test the pickups.

I don't know what methodology they use to carry out their tests, but in order for the 375nV reading to mean anything it would have to be compared against another pickup using the exact same setup and inputs.

It's conceivable that the Tone Zone would provide less output if it were setup in the bridge position using .008 gauge strings vs a PAF 36TH Anniversary in the neck position using .011 gauge strings.

Another conceivable scenario, which I've experienced, is a magnet which has somehow degaussed. I had this on a Seymour Alternative 8 (dreadful pickup, imo) which when I revisited it years later was much quieter and thinner than I remembered. I pulled the mag out, tested it on a gauss meter, and it was severely degaussed. Once recharged, it went back it its typically-mushy-self.

Not saying that is what is going on with the OP's TZ - but when something confuses the ear its often worth thinking about whether something is amiss.

In fairness, I've used TZs plenty and never considered them to be proper amp-pushers - their job to me is to help fatten up locking trem guitars.

As @timmypix mentioned above too - the guitar the pickup is in is a huge factor. A PAF-alike in the right Les Paul will sound huge.

jellybelly · October 2023

Interesting topic - explains to a point why a Jazzmaster pickup can look 'low output' in resistance terms but be very loud.

Contrary example - lace sensor pickups have big DC but sounded VERY quiet to me

Philly_Q · October 2023

BigPaulie said:

Philly_Q said:
Incidentally, DiMarzio is one of the few manufacturers which states the output in millivolts on their site. I've no concept of what 375 mV "sounds" like in absolute terms, but you can compare with their other pickups.

The only time I remember noticing a huge disparity in output - or volume - was when I had a DiMarzio MegaDrive and PAF in my old Hamer Vector. The PAF (neck position) was only about half as loud as the bridge pickup.

Yeah, but that mV reading is only applicable to the particular way that they test the pickups.

I don't know what methodology they use to carry out their tests, but in order for the 375nV reading to mean anything it would have to be compared against another pickup using the exact same setup and inputs.

It's conceivable that the Tone Zone would provide less output if it were setup in the bridge position using .008 gauge strings vs a PAF 36TH Anniversary in the neck position using .011 gauge strings.

Well yes, and that's what I said - it can be used to compare with their other pickups. I wouldn't expect it to be a useful measure against other manufacturers' pickups (if indeed they provided the info).

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Why do lower output pickups sometimes sound louder?

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