What is your writing process, and how do you capture ideas?

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

I'm curious about how you write your music and how you capture your ideas. I generally have a few processes, and it tends to change depending on the environment. For me there is this constant battle to turn ideas into songs. I wanna get some inspiration from you guys on how you approach it.

Bedroom writing:

I'll generally use an amp simulator, lately Kemper, and I'll record riffs that I write to a click. But this generally isn't as productive or prolific as it could be. Because I find I am constantly switching contexts between left-brain jobs (the creative stuff) and right-brain jobs (the adminy stuff). I also tend to get distracted by other instrumentation, like bass and drums. So you end up with an 8 bar loop that sounds great across four or five instruments.. but actually, no song. Just a riff. Quite frustrating when you've been working for three hours on it or more.

The other approach is that sometimes I will set a microphone up and play through my real amps, and free record riffs without a click or drumloop. The advantage to this is you have real amp feel, and you can just zone out and play guitar. The disadvantage is that it increases your editing after the solo-jam, having to chop up ideas into riff sections and what not, and it also rarely results in anything that could be production ready, so you end up re-recording it all again at some point.

Practice room:

Jams will very often start with one of us playing a riff, and everyone creating something to it. I'll then very often create a new riff on the fly, or solo over everyone else's playing, and if something comes out of it, we'll have a recording of the whole thing. Or I'll record the individual components and later put them down into some kind of moodboard when I get home.

Last practice we multi mic'd everything, so we could get a bit of separation. I quite fancy doing more of that in the future.

Looping:

I like to use a looper sometimes, to put down multiple guitar parts at once. This sometimes helps to structure songs too. But the problem I've always had is that the loopers out there aren't too great for this. I've generally gotten along with the M9 looper, but no real feature set there. It's just loop plus overdubs. You can't pull them apart, you can't grab them as WAV files to throw into the DAW later, and you can't really do more than one idea without losing the existing ones. I like the idea of using a looper with my "real amp" method above... but haven't ever found the right looper.

steamabacus · October 2014

Interesting thread and one that brings up lots of thoughts that I don't have time to expand upon at the moment - but I'll come back to this later.

Your comment on right/left brain resonates with me, though. I call it 'guitar head' and 'computer head'. Or even 'musician' and 'producer'. I find it very difficult and extremely tiring trying to be in both mindsets at the same time. The vast majority of my playing these days is simply 'ideas' based - I have a setup where I can throw a couple of power switches and lay down ideas using a looper recorded live onto a minidisc (without ever having to switch on the computer) - and I compile the best of these ideas into a series of 'guitar diaries' as it were. But I rarely have the motivation (or need, since I don't have a band) to develope these sketches further.

I think it's one of the problems of the 'modern musician', this need to be artist, engineer, producer all at once. It's a LOT of mental effort. I'm a real advocate of proper cooperative musical endeavour - but then the problem becomes finding the RIGHT people to cooperate with (which can become a total nightmare).

DesVegas · October 2014

Holy Crap!!! Good question Jamie.

For me (at the moment) it's all about the sound, so i'll get either a beautiful sound going or a super rock sound going and move up and down the neck till i find a sweet spot then expand from there ... i usually record to the mic on my phone (sometimes video is better as i tend to forget what the hell i played last week) and the pedal settings go in my Effect Pad pad.

When i have my hook or chord progression i try to expand it out to find a change of chords/middle 8 .. although i tend not to be too good at this and end up with four bars that loop forever but kick ass...

Then it all gets left high on the shelf and i try to find another beautiful / super rock sound and eat sleep rave repeat

Fazer · October 2014

aye, i currently make a conscious effort to just write, arrange and record the parts as a demo. i try and get the sound as the type of sound/feel i want, but make a real effort not to get sucked into the producing/engineering too much.
i find i just get bogged down with all the sound searching, eq-ing, mixing.
i do enjoy that part of it, it is creative but it can be a bit ocd, like i'm doing puzzles, jigsaws.
polishing and fiddling around.
and with the enormity of digital options, its a bottomless pit of time and choice.

so i try to concentrate more on the most important part - the fundamental notes and chords and rhythm.

so with the guitar i play around with notes and write things without recording them, they either stay in my head or i jot down the notes (in my own tab).
(i probably end up losing a few ideas though)
sometimes i'll have enough parts that fit together to make a bigger piece, and i'll then record it really basic to a click.
if i had a better setup/skillz i would do it better quality with miked amps, but usually just direct in.
i can then cut and paste the sections around to work on the whole arrangement "from the outside", and not from the inside playing guitar.
i try to add the basic ingredients to finish the piece - bass, keyboard, drums, etc as needed.
and keeping those sounds with the basic feel i want, but not getting too bogged down with the production/engineering.

lately i've been using the most basic drum sounds possible - electronic kick/snare/high hat
i realise that i've spent far far too long on writing and arranging drum parts.
i never thought i knew anything about drum parts, but i got into it and really do enjoy putting all the jigsaw pieces together.
but its so time consuming doing it piece by piece!

i have lots of lyric ideas, fragments, poems lying around, and i see if any of them fit with the music.
either when im initially writing the music on guitar, or after i've recorded parts and i'm moving the arrangement around.
sometimes the music will 'inspire' (cough) some new lyric ideas, or sometimes the other way around - i'll have some words and try to envisage it as music.

thats with the guitar.
writing on the keyboard is quite different, as i have very basic ability so i'm always on the outside listening in to myself.
so writing on the keyboard i'll spend forever in the piano roll view in the daw, moving and rearranging things in minute, microscopic detail.
again, i'm trying to move away from that, and to working on the big picture first, and not getting bogged down in the smallest details.
that can come later when the writing is completed.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

I write all sorts of music but the guitar band I'm in does modern hard rock, so this is what I/we do.

We meet up twice a week - once in the practice room, once for low volume writing. When we've got recording to do this replaces one session, or sometimes both, depending on what would be appropriate.

If you CBA reading it all the biggest difference is I don't record a 'good' version of a track straight away, I wait until it is more refined and up until that point sketch recordings and discussions are fine.

(On my Own)

With instrument:

I just play through my cab at whatever volume is appropriate, or I play acoustic guitar depending on mood. I don't bother with metronomes because they kill my vibe when writing - when I come up with an idea I want to try it at various tempos to see what works well. I'm not advocating not using a metronome, but to me metronomes are for practicing pieces of music you need to perform, they are not necessary for my writing (and I personally think they hinder me). As an example, sometimes I can have two ideas written in two different keys at different tempos... but sometimes I have a 'du'h' moment and realise they could be parts of the same song if I married them up together and had them in the same key/tempo or found a way to transition. If I wrote to a metronome I think I would have less moments like that.

The most important thing for me is to get down the idea(s), not the performance. So I don't have my DAW open until I'm much further down the line with an idea. Instead I have a Zoom H1 which I leave set up, or I use my phone if I haven't set it up for whatever reason, and I just record rough sketches/ideas as they come to me.

Without an instrument:

I write in my head, sometimes I just hear ideas, sometimes I hear the entire arrangement. I try to make a mental note to remember stuff, or I'll use the memo function on my phone if appropriate. This often drives me nuts because I sometimes get inspiration when I should be doing other things. Sometimes random stuff can trigger ideas... one chord progression was inspired by the noises our old fax machine used to make at work for example..

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In general I'm the person in our band who originates the ideas, using the above methodologies. Generally I'll present it to people in person, either at a rehearsal session or at a writing session. Sometimes I send over files, but I do that less these days because it helps me be a bit more free about arrangements. If I send over something I've worked on and practiced and performed well I often get a bit too attached to the arrangement (and I increase my own workload when I inevitably have to change it).

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Group writing

Low volume writing sessions (all invited):

We try to avoid writing in the rehearsal room and instead write in low volume writing sessions together. This is partly a decision based on economics (avoiding paying to write) and partly because it is just nicer to be able to talk normally when working on stuff rather than having to kill a whole jam etc.

Often just voice and acoustic guitar. This strips the idea back to its bare essentials - melody, chord progressions etc. I prefer to like the bare bones first before worrying about how it will be arranged and produced/performed - I've usually got several ideas in my head for that already but they're all not worth thinking about until the ideas themselves are better formed.

Once we've got a decent structure written we'll record it, again usually using my Zoom H1, and I'll make sure everyone gets a copy of the file ASAP.

We'll usually discuss drum beats and patterns here, often tap them out on the table etc. It isn't a true representation but again the main thing to get down is the right kind of pulse, not the extra stuff to go with it (we'll try that out in the rehearsal room).

If during the session any new ideas come up we'll be sure to record them quickly on the Zoom.

I make sure the singer writes down all the lyrics in an email and emails it to our band account so all can read if necessary.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

Additional sessions (guitar/bass):

Sometimes I have one on one sessions with guitarists/bassists. Our lineup has changed a couple of times, such is life, but I always keep an eye on what they're up to and make sure they're playing things properly. Our current bassist is pretty good and can play by ear anyway, so I don't really have any concerns about needing to sit and explain stuff to him.

Practice room:

So ideally everyone knows the first draft structure of the song, we've chatted about dynamics and feel, and this is the point where the drummer brings in his beats for real on the kit. We'll try using the beats + structure and see what is happening, and go from there. Often we'll jam out sections instrumentally if they feel right, and the singer will try and add in extra melodies as they come in to his head while we're jamming. If anyone else gets an idea and hasn't got a mic we'd usually stop the jam and explain it. The drummer is our backup vocalist so he has his own mic and tries out harmonies either unprompted, or we'll chat about it before trying it out.

What we'll usually do here is record multiple times, one for each structural change. When I upload the files I make sure I annotate them as best as possible.

We'll then chat about it during the week as we each check out the different versions.

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We'd then rinse and repeat the low volume and practice room refining process until we're happy. Some songs are done in one session, some take a while - or get binned but then rescued later on when someone gets a brainwave. Or just get totally binned if we don't think they're good enough.

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Once we've got a 'good' version agreed then I will sort out a proper guide recording of it, in anticipation of a recording session. The guide tracks then get OK'd via online sharing and we bring them to rehearsal to play through the PA so the drummer can practice playing to them, and we can have a critical think about just the drums. Though since our drummer now owns a midi kit we can now do this at lower volume at a home session.

Then we go about the recording process, which is a different discussion in itself. But yes it is a lot of work, I do the bulk of idea creation, I also do the bulk of recording / editing / mixing etc. However what is nice is we changed our bassist recently and the new guy is experienced with producing (he'd just finished a degree in music) and has a good ear for stuff, so he's been helping out a lot already. In fact the singer/second guitarist and drummer also have music degrees, but they're less interested in technical tasks. I don't have any music qualifications beyond GCSE Music, Grade 1 Theory (though I understand more) and Grade 2 Piano, I just love music and feel I have to play it and learn about it.

I took the day off on Tuesday but me and the bassist (who doesn't work Tuesdays) did an 8 hour recording session and then we both went to rehearsal for 4 hours. But I'd prefer to do 12 hours of music than go on holiday (that is a different thread altogether lol).

Fazer · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

Jams will very often start with one of us playing a riff, and everyone creating something to it. I'll then very often create a new riff on the fly, or solo over everyone else's playing, and if something comes out of it, we'll have a recording of the whole thing. Or I'll record the individual components and later put them down into some kind of moodboard when I get home.

Last practice we multi mic'd everything, so we could get a bit of separation. I quite fancy doing more of that in the future.

how good a recording quality can you get from the jams?
perhaps recording hours and hours and noodling is too much editing work, but what if you're able to hit record when its working well.
and use those as the final recordings, so you can switch 100% to creative editing/producer and just work on editing and arranging the recordings and fragments, adding and subtracting as needed.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

I agree with Fazer, and I think you're doing too much work too early Drew. Personally I wouldn't even mix the multitrack rehearsal recording beyond simple EQ to make it fit better for listening back. Personally I'd re record at a later date and just use multitrack rehearsals for reference. They're also good for checking everyone is playing the parts correctly/in time etc.

If possible try to completely separate engineering work from creative.

Don't separate engineering ideas - they count as creative (eg what guitar sound/drum sound etc) but don't get bogged down in actually doing that stuff until the song is ready for it. Just make mental notes and return to them when it is recording time.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

Fazer said:

Drew_fx said:

Jams will very often start with one of us playing a riff, and everyone creating something to it. I'll then very often create a new riff on the fly, or solo over everyone else's playing, and if something comes out of it, we'll have a recording of the whole thing. Or I'll record the individual components and later put them down into some kind of moodboard when I get home.

Last practice we multi mic'd everything, so we could get a bit of separation. I quite fancy doing more of that in the future.

how good a recording quality can you get from the jams?

Actually surprisingly good. We used a Zoom H6 and a bunch of extra microphones. It sounds reasonably decent, take a listen:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kip43gm1sjfi49i/Exegesis_12_10_2014.mp3?dl=0

perhaps recording hours and hours and noodling is too much editing work, but what if you're able to hit record when its working well.
and use those as the final recordings, so you can switch 100% to creative editing/producer and just work on editing and arranging the recordings and fragments, adding and subtracting as needed.

Yeah that's definitely one angle to take. I'd almost like a recorder that could constantly record, but let me drop markers on the fly into the WAV file as reference points, using a simple footswitch. That way you know where to hone in on for the bits that felt good.

guitarfishbay said:

I agree with Fazer, and I think you're doing too much work too early Drew.

I'd be interested to hear you expand on this Max. I tend to agree with you when it comes to multiple instrumentation - I do flit between all of the different instruments a bit too much. I also get quite bogged down in structuring songs too early as well. I know I'm guilty of that. I've managed to train myself to ignore 'mix' elements until the end these days, but that too also used to be a big problem for me.

Personally I wouldn't even mix the multitrack rehearsal recording beyond simple EQ to make it fit better for listening back. Personally I'd re record at a later date and just use multitrack rehearsals for reference. They're also good for checking everyone is playing the parts correctly/in time etc.

Yeah that's pretty much all I did. Bit of EQ and compression.

Fazer · October 2014

that exegesis is good enough quality to make a 'record', it is multi-track?
i would think about editing and mixing those things into 'records'.
maybe 5% more attention to the miking and mixing and the sound quality is as good as you're going to get anyway
i'm sure that a lot of zappa albums are live recordings/jams from over a vast time frame and concerts, spliced and mixed up together with extra layers and studio recordings added.
and an album like snowflake midnight by mercury rev, which i think it pure genius, was made by editing together 100s of jams and bits and pieces

PolarityMan · October 2014

I have a couple of different methods but I can actually give you a worked example..will take me some time to lay my hands on the files though so might not be for a few days.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

Drew_fx said:
I'd be interested to hear you expand on this Max. I tend to agree with you when it comes to multiple instrumentation - I do flit between all of the different instruments a bit too much. I also get quite bogged down in structuring songs too early as well. I know I'm guilty of that. I've managed to train myself to ignore 'mix' elements until the end these days, but that too also used to be a big problem for me.

I'll quote your original post and respond to it with what I'd do differently:

Drew_fx said:
I'll generally use an amp simulator, lately Kemper, and I'll record riffs that I write to a click. But this generally isn't as productive or prolific as it could be. Because I find I am constantly switching contexts between left-brain jobs (the creative stuff) and right-brain jobs (the adminy stuff). I also tend to get distracted by other instrumentation, like bass and drums. So you end up with an 8 bar loop that sounds great across four or five instruments.. but actually, no song. Just a riff. Quite frustrating when you've been working for three hours on it or more.

Metronomes - I find they stifle creativity. So I don't use them for writing. This does mean I do need to revisit metronomes later probably in more detail as my timing does suck a bit during writing phases but I think it is worth focusing on one job at a time. Still use a metronome for practicing pieces you've already written, but for creation I wouldn't use one. This is a preference thing though, you might find it helps with writing, in which case stick with it.

But mostly, I think you're jumping the gun. If you've got 8 bars, then that is an idea - not a song. It seems like you're trying to flesh things out before you know where you're going. Sometimes this works, but it sounds like from your post it isn't working often enough for you.

So my advice would be to try just focussing on guitar/whatever musical idea you had first to start off with. Develop that and see where it goes and worry about fitting in the other stuff later. Your drummer seems pretty good - is he any good at writing? If he is, then I wouldn't worry about trying to do anything much to begin with. In all likelihood you'll change the structure/arrangement/dynamics etc when you show the idea to other people, so you could be doing a lot of work for not much reward. Ditto the bass. Sometimes collaboration works better than trying to do it all yourself.

IMO, just record the guitar ideas first, worry about the other stuff later. But if it comes easily, do them too, just don't force them because if your bandmates are good enough to either write, or pick up ideas quickly which you can convey to them by singing them/clapping them/playing them to them then it can make sense to go that way.

If you get stuck on a new idea, leave it alone, go play something else instead. Either try writing a different song, or just go play tracks you've already written and try to rearrange them. Sometimes you can re-arrange one idea into a totally new idea that sounds nothing like where you started just because you've picked up on where you were mentally last time. Lots of stuff worth trying, but personally I don't find it useful to sit and think for ages about one part if it isn't happening for me.

Drew_fx said:

The other approach is that sometimes I will set a microphone up and play through my real amps, and free record riffs without a click or drumloop. The advantage to this is you have real amp feel, and you can just zone out and play guitar. The disadvantage is that it increases your editing after the solo-jam, having to chop up ideas into riff sections and what not, and it also rarely results in anything that could be production ready, so you end up re-recording it all again at some point.

Here's what I do:

I don't edit the files, I just stick them all on the computer and I listen to them and think up the arrangements I want to use. I'd do the re-arranging in my head.

Then I re-play them another day as I've imagined them, then re-record. Adjusting as necessary.

I wouldn't be editing those ideas, I'd leave them whole as I imagined them first time, because I might re-visit it. But any re-imaginings I'd play again, and record again.

Don't worry about production ready - you're probably going to re-arrange when you involve other people anyway. I don't know how you guys work, but I personally have never written something and it carried over 100% to the final version.

Drew_fx said:
Practice room:

Jams will very often start with one of us playing a riff, and everyone creating something to it. I'll then very often create a new riff on the fly, or solo over everyone else's playing, and if something comes out of it, we'll have a recording of the whole thing. Or I'll record the individual components and later put them down into some kind of moodboard when I get home.

Last practice we multi mic'd everything, so we could get a bit of separation. I quite fancy doing more of that in the future.

This seems fine to me. This lets everyone play to their own strengths, many minds make much creativity. Personally I wouldn't be writing the drums in the earlier examples because I'd assume at this point your drummer will come up with or refine your ideas beyond what you thought, not just because of musicianship but also collaboration.

Also I'd guess you'd wind up with something different to the one you made at home, so I again don't think it is worth toiling over what you do at home too much, focus on writing your parts and convey what you want to others in person rather than spending your own time trying to record it all.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

Drew_fx said:
Looping:

I like to use a looper sometimes, to put down multiple guitar parts at once. This sometimes helps to structure songs too. But the problem I've always had is that the loopers out there aren't too great for this. I've generally gotten along with the M9 looper, but no real feature set there. It's just loop plus overdubs. You can't pull them apart, you can't grab them as WAV files to throw into the DAW later, and you can't really do more than one idea without losing the existing ones. I like the idea of using a looper with my "real amp" method above... but haven't ever found the right looper.

I don't see much use in a looper for writing, you get stuck with whatever structure you loop 1st time and if you change your mind you start again.

What I think makes more sense is to do this bit on a DAW but don't put too much pressure on yourself to play it 'release quality' as it'll still be useful to hear it back anyway.

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Personally I think it looks like you're trying to arrange ideas before they're formed, and you're expecting yourself to play everything release quality all the time. I think if you relaxed your expectations of technical tasks you might get stuck less.

Try doing one stage at a time, pretend you're not good at production stuff or that you don't know how to do it even though you can imagine how you'd want the end result to be. Think like a musician not an engineer - you can still have thoughts about how you want to engineer it all but do that work afterwards, otherwise you'll get stuck in a cycle.

I get wanting everything to be good but the stuff you don't share/release (stuff you use between you and your band for writing) is supposed to serve a different purpose - creation. So do whatever works for you to create, worry about recording quality stuff later.

Nomad · October 2014

I fart about a lot, on various instruments, but mostly guitar. Occasionally, an idea comes out - a phrase, a sequence of notes, whatever. If I think it has something, I put the notes manually into Sonar as a MIDI sequence. Sometimes, I have an idea in my head and stick the notes in directly.

I then try the part with various instruments to see what I think might work. Maybe repeat the part a few times to build a verse, maybe edit some of the notes in the subsequent parts to see if there's a progression to be had. Once I have something that lasts a few bars, I'm starting to think of other possible instruments and melodies. I write another part, try various sounds, tweak and adjust. At some point, I start to think of the arrangement - write an intro, bring in the main tune in whatever way I see fit, establish the structure, and work out an ending. Then tweak more until the piece works as a whole.

I make no attempt to write using particular instrumentation, although there are sounds that I tend to use because I like them. Same with genres - no particular ideas or styles in mind. The fact that I'm primarily a guitarist with a background that's mostly rock is irrelevant. I think the idea of taking the initial melodic idea and trying it with various instruments is key - the right combination of melody and sound will stand out and inspire, and that influences the direction that things take.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

There is also a tech aspect to this; the quickest and easiest way to capture ideas. I had a quick play this morning, came up with a phat riff... didn't record it, now I've forgotten it. Story of my life!

steamabacus · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

There is also a tech aspect to this; the quickest and easiest way to capture ideas. I had a quick play this morning, came up with a phat riff... didn't record it, now I've forgotten it. Story of my life!

This is why I have my setup permanently plumbed into a minidisc recorder - one button record at all times. I prefer having a physical medium - I find it much easier to search through than endless random wav files (I am a bit of a luddite, though).

monquixote · October 2014

Though I don't write much anymore I spent about 10 years playing in original material bands.

I think the absolute key is speed of getting ideas down while keeping the "creative brain" without engaging the "engineer brain".

Computers and multi FX are idea poison. I'd always have a brilliant idea and then start trying to fire the PC up and set the interface up etc by which time it had gone. Even if you do get it all set up while the muse is still with you I find you end up with just the part that you were inspired with and end up adding an extra guitar part, bass, drum, keys. I have dozens of tracks in my DAW which are 1 minute of densely arranged music which then doesn't go anywhere. Much better to have the skeleton of a whole track than a short section with multiple parts.

Acoustic or unplugged electric is also good. If I have a multiFX I just piss about with sounds rather than trying to create melodies or interesting chords.

The best things I've done have been the result of just having a tape running and then just thinking about playing

When working with other people again having nothing getting in the way of idea flow is critical.

In the band I did my best writing with we would have a tape running and jam out ideas and then review them after practice. Whoever was inspired would work them into something and then take them into the next session acting as the arranger and instructing people. It's critical you have people that can listen as they play. I played in one band where a guy had to have everything explained to him and it just took you out of the moment. Once I'd taken ten minutes to explain the riff to him my inspiration was gone and the song was lost.

One band I played in had a primary writer who did two sessions a week. One writing with just him and the drummer to flesh out the song structure rhythms and chords and another with lead guitar and bass as well to do the more detailed arranging, riffs etc. That worked really well.

bigjon · October 2014

I scribble down any thoughts on the right-hand page of my pocket diary. Sometimes they get fleshed out to complete songs, sometimes they get abandoned. The completed ones are indexed on a database with a reference to the date! This week's entry just has the heading 'I'm Not Gonna Lie' at the moment - I thought it was an intriguing song title!

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

I posted this in my Fryette thread, but I think it deserves to go here too:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/630473/GearDemos/Fryette Sig X/RandomRiffs.mp3

This is how I will often start a song. Amp+microphone+effects+blatant disregard for a metronome....

It's once I get 20 minutes of that guff, turning those ideas into songs... that's the difficult part. I need a process to help deal with this stuff.

JAYJO · October 2014

Havent tried writing a song for ages. I spend too much time playing over loops and ending up with tons of unfinished projects. Back in the day ahem, I would just pick up the acoustic and strum some open chords and when the time felt right i would just start wailing. Not too loud but loud enough for the old tape recorder to catch everything. The lyrics would be random as would the melody. I would leave the tape running until it clicked stop! Which sometimes went unnoticed unfortunately. i would then have a cuppa and play the whole tape back. If i liked something i would work on it. Again i would play it back days later and see if i still liked it.

Lev · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

There is also a tech aspect to this; the quickest and easiest way to capture ideas. I had a quick play this morning, came up with a phat riff... didn't record it, now I've forgotten it. Story of my life!

This has been the story of my life too. I'm making a conscious effort though to pull out my mobile phone and record the idea there and then. Sure it sounds like shit but it's enough to jog your memory for when you have time to fire up your recording gear.

Cirrus · October 2014

I use the record function on my phone when I come up with an idea. From there to the complete song could be through a number of routes - jamming the idea with my band, sitting at home with an acoustic guitar and notepad, or recording a full arrangement at my band's practice studio either through a PC or more recently the multitrack recorder on my ipad (along with an Alesis io dock!).

It just depends. I play drums and bass as well as guitar and I can sing even if my voice isn't brilliant so a lot of the time as soon as I have an idea, I already have an instinctual idea for a drum beat and bass part. But I keep it as just little clips and notes/ written lyrics until the song is more sure of itself before I try to actually record it. If you record a "demo" too soon it's like throwing too much wood onto a fire - the spark gets put out. I actually find the initial demo recording process to be an incredibly fertile time of discovery but its a process you can only do once, so the basic song has to be robust by that point.

PolarityMan · October 2014

monquixote said:

Though I don't write much anymore I spent about 10 years playing in original material bands.

I think the absolute key is speed of getting ideas down while keeping the "creative brain" without engaging the "engineer brain".

Computers and multi FX are idea poison. I'd always have a brilliant idea and then start trying to fire the PC up and set the interface up etc by which time it had gone.

I couldn't disagree with this more. I basically started using MS-DOS dirven trackers to make songs within a few months of learning to play so perhaps it's just what you're used to.

Personally I tend to write at least the drum part and the guitar part together. I find writing with the whole band...at least in this current band...quite inefficient. Mostly as soon as I write a riff I'll have certain elements on the drums that are integral to the riff and communicating what I want to our drummer and persuading him to try it etc is a bit of a ballache.

Our jams all ten to start out ok for 8-16 bars but then everyone just gets busier and busier until the sound as a while is pretty impenetrable. The problem is when you're repeating the same thing over and over again it's easy for people to convince themselves that it sounds alright when it really doesn't. When we do write as a whole band I spend most of the time with a Quality Control type hat on working on the drums and bass to really enjoy the process. And getting macro arrangements in is far harder than it should be...its much easier if i just demo it and then take it from there.

By contrast working with the other guitarist / singer only is really smooth so this may well depend alot on how good writers the rest of your band are.

monquixote · October 2014

PolarityMan said:
Personally I tend to write at least the drum part and the guitar part together. I find writing with the whole band...at least in this current band...quite inefficient. Mostly as soon as I write a riff I'll have certain elements on the drums that are integral to the riff and communicating what I want to our drummer and persuading him to try it etc is a bit of a ballache.

Our jams all ten to start out ok for 8-16 bars but then everyone just gets busier and busier until the sound as a while is pretty impenetrable. The problem is when you're repeating the same thing over and over again it's easy for people to convince themselves that it sounds alright when it really doesn't. When we do write as a whole band I spend most of the time with a Quality Control type hat on working on the drums and bass to really enjoy the process. And getting macro arrangements in is far harder than it should be...its much easier if i just demo it and then take it from there.

By contrast working with the other guitarist / singer only is really smooth so this may well depend alot on how good writers the rest of your band are.

Yeah, this probably says more about your drummer than the process.

I've played in bands where you could play a riff twice say "I want emphasis on this note/beat" and the perfect drum beat would ensue.

You can't write effectively with people who don't have really good ears.

PolarityMan · October 2014

Anyway sidetracked a bit there. I basically have 2 main writing processes.

I'd normally produce something like this. This would take about 4-5 hours starting from nothing if I'm feeling inspired. If I'm not getting anywhere after an hour or so I'll usually either file the idea or give up.

In this case I started from the intro writing the drums and stabs for that before moving on to the other riffs. I pay particular attention to the drums and often refine the guitar riff to fit the drum parts and vice versa. In this example I liked the fill at the end of the thrashier chorus riff so changed the guitar to fit in for example (0:31)

For this one I put the bass in at the end because it didn't feel like the bass was a principle compositional element for this style. On other songs I would usually write the part first that has the greatest compositional focus.

I also pay attention to where I think vocals will go in the final song when making arrangements. Occasionally what I think of as a verse will become a chorus etc after the vocals are written but I'm thinking about final structure by this point.

For this one the end chorus is actually the original idea I had for the main choruses but I decided it was a bit too cheesy to use so often in the song so instead I used to to make it feel like there is an energy / tempo change at the end of the song.

At this point I'll send it round the other guys to see if they like it. We might also start jamming it out in rehearsal.If we decide it's a keeper then typically the singer will produce a demo:

Singing kicks in at 0:54.

By this time we'll start playing it in rehearsal in earnest and stick it in our sets. For example:

You'll notice at this point that the fill in the verse has acquire some pinch harmonics as sort of an effect and the bass drum rhythm in the second half of the chorus has been changed to what I should have written int eh first place but was too lazy to and jsut cut and pasted

but the song is pretty much as demo'd including things like the drum fills from the demo.

At some point the song will then make it onto a recording. In the studio we often notice small details like when 2 guitars are playing slightly different rhythms. We'll also often work on ideas for new vocal harmonies at this point or refine existing harmonies and after it's mixed it sounds like this (sneak peak of new album):

Any changes we made in the recording process will also filter back to our live versions of course. Biggest change here other than better quality recording and performances was the chorus vocals (1:55ish)

Oh yeah, forgot the little wah'd texture parts in the last 2 choruses were added during live playing / rehearsing.

PolarityMan · October 2014

monquixote;383369" said:
PolarityMan said:Personally I tend to write at least the drum part and the guitar part together. I find writing with the whole band...at least in this current band...quite inefficient. Mostly as soon as I write a riff I'll have certain elements on the drums that are integral to the riff and communicating what I want to our drummer and persuading him to try it etc is a bit of a ballache.

Our jams all ten to start out ok for 8-16 bars but then everyone just gets busier and busier until the sound as a while is pretty impenetrable. The problem is when you're repeating the same thing over and over again it's easy for people to convince themselves that it sounds alright when it really doesn't. When we do write as a whole band I spend most of the time with a Quality Control type hat on working on the drums and bass to really enjoy the process. And getting macro arrangements in is far harder than it should be...its much easier if i just demo it and then take it from there.

By contrast working with the other guitarist / singer only is really smooth so this may well depend alot on how good writers the rest of your band are.

Yeah, this probably says more about your drummer than the process.

I've played in bands where you could play a riff twice say "I want emphasis on this note/beat" and the perfect drum beat would ensue.

You can't write effectively with people who don't have really good ears.

Just by way of contrast, this song was a full band effort:

I'm immensely proud of this song but getting it from a handful of guitar riffs and that intro drum pattern into a song was a massive pain in the ass. Took about 3 practices. In the case the main issue was the bass line as the bassist was really committed to playing something high up and kinda lead guitar sounding rather than something with groove.

The break down part took orders of magnitude longer to get the drum part sorted for than it should have actually (6:45)

ThePrettyDamned · October 2014

I have two ways of writing really - one for funk, one for rock.

Funk: I riff on *one* note. Or none, sometimes. It's more important to get a great rhythm. I'll have a metronome on.

Once I've locked into something, I'll work out whether it should be single notes, one note altogether, smaller chords (typically 2 or 3 string), then work from there.

For rock, I don't bother with a metronome. I just jam - I find writing heavy rock pretty easy to be honest, as it's quite a straightforward thing to do.

I don't *choose* to use interesting time sigs, but if I have an idea that happens to be, I often need to slow right down, then use a metronome until I've locked into it.

I don't often record as my laptop has died, so I might need to look into one of those Zoom recorder idea thingies - seems to give an acceptable in the room sound.

thecolourbox · October 2014

For the "i need to record this idea right now" moments, ive had good results with one of those Line 6 backtrack thingies. As they record a "dry" signal they also allow you to put the raw track through any combination of amps you like on amplitube et al when you go through them on your computer, which satisfies that tweaking urge as well!

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What is your writing process, and how do you capture ideas?

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