String 'tension' and bending...

Dan_Halen · October 2023

This has been discussed several times before but, after some reading about and seeing conflicting information, is there a way to ease a bit of the resistance in strings when bending?

Appreciate they have to be at a certain tension to be in pitch but have one guitar that really fights back on bends. I've got 10s on most stuff (9s on one, 11s on a couple) but this one is Fender scale, trem decked for a bit of down wobble only, 10s and is the only guitar I have that I can barely bend a tone and a half on - I have to really force it. I've got a couple of others, same scale length, trem set the same, also 10s and they're so easy to bend up 3 semitones on.

I've tried 9.5s and they just don't suit it - don't think it's the gauge and it just needs a hair more 'bendability'. I've seen talk of adjusting the trem claw, raising the action, neck relief, some people insisting it's set in stone and others denying that it's a thing that can be adjusted... argh. Surely the bendy-ness under same tension is affected by the length of the string, or is that nonsense?

I've read all sorts after some Googling and happy to try things but, before I bugger about with it too much, is there a perceived wisdom with this?

ICBM · October 2023

Bendi-ness at the same string tension (gauge and scale length) is affected by the lengths of the string beyond the nut and bridge saddles, by the break angles at both, by friction further away (eg where the strings pass through the bridgeplate), and if there's a floating vibrato by the springs. It can also seem to be affected by fret height, fingerboard radius, relief and (possibly) neck stiffness.

But some guitars just seem to 'fight' more even when everything else appears to be equal - which is why I genuinely think neck stiffness might be a factor, since it's one of the few things that can't be easily adjusted or compared. Your fingers become microscopically sensitive to small changes in feel - they have to, or you wouldn't be able to pre-bend in tune or produce smooth vibrato without thinking about it.

Tannin · October 2023

9s ain't 9s. 12s ain't 12s. And so on.

Strings of a given nominal gauge vary enormously from one make to another. Some feel soft and easy to play, others feel like bar-taught razor blades cutting your fingers up. Some are harsh, some are gentle.

Now the obvious explanation for that is that (say) the D'Adarrios have lower tension than (say) the Elixirs even though the nominal gauges are the same. And that is partially true: different sets do have different tensions. But even after allowing for that, some strings are just easier on the fingers than other strings. And some of them even manage to be gentle on your left hand while still having some meat in the sound and a bit of weight under the right hand so they don't feel floppy.

(I can't recommend any particular ones as I don't play electric. Ask me about acoustic 12s.)

That said, many (possibly even most) round core strings are nicer to play than the average hex core string. Look for quality makers like Newtone, DR, Galli, Pyramid.

PS: there are many other factors, but I'll let an electric player deal with them, not my thing.

jasonbone75 · October 2023

Worn frets would make a difference too. As the crowns get flatter you are fighting more friction so something to check and compare between your "equal spec" guitars.

Nerine · October 2023

Interesting.

Usually when I play my friends’ guitars my first question is usually “what gauge have you got on this?”

I find a lot of my friends guitars to have a slightly more slinky feel than mine ever do and bends seem to require less effort.

Having said that, I don’t actually mind too much.

Dan_Halen · October 2023

ICBM said:

"...But some guitars just seem to 'fight' more even when everything else appears to be equal"

Think I very much agree with this to be honest, although be a shame to not play about with it a bit before I consign it to the out-tray. Given there's no wiggle room between nut and tuners, would there likely be any mileage in moving the trem claw backwards or forwards a small margin? It would change the amount of string beyond the saddles but not sure which way would logically maybe improve it just a hair.

Regarding strings, not sure what it has on it but would be either Ernie Balls or maybe D'Addario's as have occasionally bought those in the past when they've been on offer - not sure if one are considered notably stiffer than the other?

Admittedly I could just have at it with some new strings of different brands, a screw driver and some hex keys and see if I can do anything with it but would be silly to not at least ask those who know more than me first

Dan_Halen · October 2023

Nerine said:

Interesting.

Usually when I play my friends’ guitars my first question is usually “what gauge have you got on this?”

I find a lot of my friends guitars to have a slightly more slinky feel than mine ever do and bends seem to require less effort.

Having said that, I don’t actually mind too much.

Yeah, I don't mind some fight but there's a couple of tunes I play with a tone and a half bend and it's all I've got to just about get it to pitch... so much so that it doesn't feel like it would even bend further even if I had the finger strength.

Seems a real shame as it puts me off what is an otherwise superb guitar as smaller bends are proportionally slightly tougher as well - it plays havoc with the muscle memory.

elstoof · October 2023

Try some stiffer springs in the trem?

ICBM · October 2023

Dan_Halen said:

Given there's no wiggle room between nut and tuners, would there likely be any mileage in moving the trem claw backwards or forwards a small margin? It would change the amount of string beyond the saddles but not sure which way would logically maybe improve it just a hair.

Not if the bridge isn't floating, or doesn't move forward when you bend.

However, changing the neck angle/shim so the bridge saddles have to be higher or lower for the same final action might make a difference - it will change both the break angles at the saddle and the baseplate hole.

I can't actually say which direction will help - not least because different people have opposite interpretations of 'slinky'... some think it's when the strings need to be moved a long way for the same pitch change (eg Jazzmaster), some think it's when the strings respond more quickly to bending (eg Gibson wraparound). I'm the former, but I know people who are the other

.

StuartMac290 · October 2023

Try taller frets and a bit more neck relief.

That said, some guitars just seem stiff. The original US G+L Asats all felt really stiff to me, for example. Great for slide, though

stickyfiddle · October 2023

What @ICBM says is all spot on. (except about JMs and Bigsbied-stuff being "more slinky" - LP Jrs are the slinkiest, easiest-playing things in the world imo)

I think the one thing not mentioned is polishing your frets. Old tarnished frets are much harder to bend across than shiny polished ones.

soma1975 · October 2023

Newtone nickel roundwounds have noticeably less tension tuned up to the same note as regular strings.

This can offset other harder to change aspects of the chain.

ICBM · October 2023

stickyfiddle said:

What @ICBM says is all spot on. (except about JMs and Bigsbied-stuff being "more slinky" - LP Jrs are the slinkiest, easiest-playing things in the world imo)

Exactly what I meant

- Juniors are the stiffest guitars there are, apart from blocked-off/hardtail Floyds. Like an acoustic...

Strat54 · October 2023

Round core strings, stainless steel frets and a 10" + radius fretboard.

BigPaulie · October 2023

Fret height is one is the biggest factors I've found. A guitar with low frets means your finger pads make more contact with the fingerboard and the resultant friction impedes bending. This, for me, is exacerbated by glossy maple fingerboards, and is the main reason I will never own another guitar with a gloss finished board.

Dan_Halen · October 2023

Frets are pretty small on this one and a pretty low action but feel like it's all in the string tension - a big bend is basically get fingers underneath and yank it up as much as possible. It's almost unable to overbend as it's always way more effort than expected.

I think I probably just need to accept that it's a bit stiffer than others I've got. It's really easy to play apart from that and sounds great - almost my perfect guitar if only it was just a touch less fighty when bending.

DrJazzTap · October 2023

I set up my raffle win American special last week. I noticed the tension was different to the American standard.
The string tension and tremolo were stiffer on the special. I bought some American standard springs. Fitted them and boom, after adjusting the claw the guitar feels almost identical to the standard.

rze99 · October 2023

it varies by guitar.

The shorter the overall scale and length of string the greater the ease of bending.

Fenders tend to have harder to bend top E then get easier as you go down. Which is why some people like to reverse the headstock a la Hendrix (who had a reversed headstock AND used skinny 10-38 strings by all accounts)

Try different strings in each position. There's one Strat I have where it goes 008 011 15 24 36 48 because it feels right when I'm playing.

You could take off and reposition the neck too don't know why but sometimes it helps..

Mike58 · October 2023

My LP played like butter after a fret reprofile and polish ( frets were too tall ) so height and super smooth fret crown did it for me. Noticeable difference in bendiness.

beed84 · October 2023

Mike58 said:

My LP played like butter after a fret reprofile and polish ( frets were too tall ) so height and super smooth fret crown did it for me. Noticeable difference in bendiness.

Also, what condition is your fingerboard in? I had guitar with a 'board so dry it was a fight and literally painful to play. After cleaning and treating with it a small amount of lemon oil it played wonderfully. I can't guarantee you'd get the same results but it might be worth try, even if it sounds a bit left field.

Dan_Halen · October 2023

Fingerboard and frets are fine - I actually restrung it and gave them a clean last night on the off chance that I'd put something different on there by mistake last time. I can feel the top (higher) strings are more taut without even fretting and just by wiggling the string up and down. Not vastly, but enough that it's noticeable. I'm sure it's more preference than problem though and maybe we're just not meant to be together

Someone who likes a difference gauge or something a bit stiffer would probably prefer it.

BigPaulie · October 2023

There is a way to quantitatively establish if your guitar strings are harder to bend due to higher string tension than other guitars.

If you have a digital luggage scale like the one below you can slip the metal hook under a string at about the 12th fret and pull the strings up perpendicular to the fingerboard, thus eliminating the factors relating to friction. See how much force it takes to bend the pitch one whole step. Use a tuner for accuracy and take several measurements and average them out. Compare this between guitars and you'll be able to establish if there is a noticeable difference in string tension. If there isn't it's a friction issue.

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ICBM · October 2023

BigPaulie said:

There is a way to quantitatively establish if your guitar strings are harder to bend due to higher string tension than other guitars.

If you have a digital luggage scale like the one below you can slip the metal hook under a string at about the 12th fret and pull the strings up perpendicular to the fingerboard, thus eliminating the factors relating to friction. See how much force it takes to bend the pitch one whole step. Use a tuner for accuracy and take several measurements and average them out. Compare this between guitars and you'll be able to establish if there is a noticeable difference in string tension. If there isn't it's a friction issue.

That's still a static physical measurement and won't necessarily reveal why some guitars feel different to others - which is at least to some extent psychological.

stickyfiddle and I (among others) can't even agree whether long travel and gentle increase in tension, or short travel and rapid increase in tension, feels easier to play - although we agree that they feel very different. But if you measure both using that method, the force necessary to raise the pitch by the same amount should be the same.

BigPaulie · October 2023

ICBM said:

BigPaulie said:

There is a way to quantitatively establish if your guitar strings are harder to bend due to higher string tension than other guitars.

If you have a digital luggage scale like the one below you can slip the metal hook under a string at about the 12th fret and pull the strings up perpendicular to the fingerboard, thus eliminating the factors relating to friction. See how much force it takes to bend the pitch one whole step. Use a tuner for accuracy and take several measurements and average them out. Compare this between guitars and you'll be able to establish if there is a noticeable difference in string tension. If there isn't it's a friction issue.

That's still a static physical measurement and won't necessarily reveal why some guitars feel different to others - which is at least to some extent psychological.

That's my point entirely: to establish if there actually is a higher tension on the strings of the guitar as the OP suspects or if the "tighter" feel is due to one of the innumerable other factors, including those psychological.

ICBM · October 2023

BigPaulie said:

That's my point entirely: to establish if there actually is a higher tension on the strings of the guitar as the OP suspects or if the "tighter" feel is due to one of the innumerable other factors, including those psychological.

There won't be though - the string tension will always be the same for a given scale length, string gauge (and brand) and final pitch. It's how it moves from low to high which is important - to track that you would need to measure the increase in force at each position in multiple increments of the lateral movement. It could be done, but a lot more involved than just measuring tension at pitch.

stickyfiddle · October 2023

ICBM said:

BigPaulie said:

That's my point entirely: to establish if there actually is a higher tension on the strings of the guitar as the OP suspects or if the "tighter" feel is due to one of the innumerable other factors, including those psychological.

There won't be though - the string tension will always be the same for a given scale length, string gauge (and brand) and final pitch. It's how it moves from low to high which is important - to track that you would need to measure the increase in force at each position in multiple increments of the lateral movement. It could be done, but a lot more involved than just measuring tension at pitch.

Yep. Tension along the string is the same assuming the same scale length and pitch for any given string gauge (that is part of the equation that determines the pitch). But the sideways movement to increase that pitch by a tone differs in terms of distance needed to move and the sideways force required (not actually "tension" in science/engineering speak), depending on the length of non-ringing string above the nut and behind the bridge (assuming non locking nut & bridge).

Of course that is an extra-complex question, because if you have to push it further then the geometry also changes, because you're actually increasing the distance from bridge to fret when you move the string sideways. AND if your bridge is floating then it will be pulled towards the nut whenever you bend the string. AND if your guitar exists in the real world the neck also flexes slightly as you increase that tension.

I've never done the maths. I'm pretty sure I could if I got some old textbooks out, but I really don't want to.

flying_pie · October 2023

One factor people don't talk about much is finger strength.

It's easy to develop this. It's also ready to neglect this.

These days I'm mainly a rhythm guitarist but on the occasions when I play solos I really notice difficulty with bends at the highest frets. Usually some focused practice resolves that.

FWIW I used to be happy bending with 11s on a Tele in a previous band but have found with neglect that my current choice of 10s on a PRS 25 inch scale can feel a big effort.

stickyfiddle · October 2023

Life's too short for 11s on a Tele! Though I know that when I'm playing & gigging a lot I do usually go up a gauge to stop everything feeling really floppy.

This week I've been playing a Strat on 9s in D standard - it's a bendy dream!

Dan_Halen · October 2023

flying_pie said:

One factor people don't talk about much is finger strength.

It's easy to develop this. It's also ready to neglect this.

These days I'm mainly a rhythm guitarist but on the occasions when I play solos I really notice difficulty with bends at the highest frets. Usually some focused practice resolves that.

FWIW I used to be happy bending with 11s on a Tele in a previous band but have found with neglect that my current choice of 10s on a PRS 25 inch scale can feel a big effort.

I get do get that... but I've got a bunch of different guitars with various different string gauges, scale length and bridge situations (at least 7 with 25.5 scale and 10s) and this seems like an obviously outlier.

This might be utter nonsense so be interesting to float and possibly get shot down.... but it 'feels' like my left hand fingers know exactly (well, exactly-ish) where to reach for say a half, whole and 3 semi-tone bend. The difference between, say, my Strat with 9s, Tele with 10s or PRS with 11s is in the effort required to get there rather than the distance it needs to travel during a bend: my fingers almost snap to position for different pitches from muscle memory regardless of the guitar and can get used to it in a couple of minutes. Then with problem guitar, it feels like 1. I need more effort and 2. I need to bend much further to get up to pitch.

I mean, maybe it's all in my head and I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it, but I enjoy getting the thoughts of others regardless. I don't have a universal 'this is how I like my guitars' and try and get them exactly as I envisage them. Much prefer to find what seems to be their natural sweet sport with strings, action etc. then maybe just some small tweaks to taste. I think this is just one where I want it to be something it's not but no big deal

Strat54 · October 2023

What is its fretboard radius?

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