Pi and Chips

guitartango · September 2023

No not food, but the Raspberry pi foundation have announced a new "Pi"

https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/introducing-raspberry-pi-5/

Could be using this for my Daily Driver , what say you @digitalscream ?

darthed1981 · September 2023

I love "in a break from tradition, we are announcing before it's available on shelves" and not "we can't get them for bloody ages and it's bound to leak".

Still... astonishing spec for the money and as you say @guitartango getting easily towards the spec where you could use one as a daily web browsing/media/wasting time on TFB machine with a nice cheap monitor.

goldtop · September 2023

Wow. Getting serious. I'd love to swap from an iMac on the next upgrade, but I'll have to spend quite some time wising up on Pi's OS and apps.

darthed1981 · September 2023

goldtop said:

Wow. Getting serious. I'd love to swap from an iMac on the next upgrade, but I'll have to spend quite some time wising up on Pi's OS and apps.

It's not a steep curve these days - at this spec it can run almost everything any other Linux PC can.

I'm a big supporter of cheap computing for everyone - in an age where people are struggling to heat and eat, and yet PC access is essential for work, school and accessing essential services, the Pi and it's kin have another purpose beyond letting enthusiasts open their curtains from their armchairs.

digitalscream · September 2023

Honestly? While I love the idea of a credit-card-sized computer doing everything we need it to in order to be a daily driver, I don't think the Pi will ever be it.

The limited RAM is a serious problem (8GB doesn't go very far these days), as is the very limited CPU (this is probably nearly on par with the lowest spec modern Celerons), and then we have to talk about I/O - just two USB 3.0 ports kinda sucks. Especially when one of those will have to be for storage (the PCIE "slot" is only PCIE 2.0 1x, which means 500MB/s - not even enough for a SATA SSD).

EDIT: Apparently it can actually do PCIE 3.0 1x, or 1GB/s, but it's not certified for that and thus may not be reliable

ARM CPUs are capable of really serious performance, but just not these ARM CPUs - and even with Apple's Mx silicon, what really makes them useful are the hardware accelerators for very specific use cases.

When you can pick up a 6th-7th gen I5 or i7 NUC second hand for not much more than this with expandable memory, storage and proper I/O, the Pi isn't really a contender for a daily in my opinion.

hollywoodrox · October 2023

I’ve had a few Pi’s over the years , there was a big shortage a while ago & price went up. I’ve still got a zero left

octatonic · October 2023

digitalscream said:

Honestly? While I love the idea of a credit-card-sized computer doing everything we need it to in order to be a daily driver, I don't think the Pi will ever be it.

The limited RAM is a serious problem (8GB doesn't go very far these days), as is the very limited CPU (this is probably nearly on par with the lowest spec modern Celerons), and then we have to talk about I/O - just two USB 3.0 ports kinda sucks. Especially when one of those will have to be for storage (the PCIE "slot" is only PCIE 2.0 1x, which means 500MB/s - not even enough for a SATA SSD).

EDIT: Apparently it can actually do PCIE 3.0 1x, or 1GB/s, but it's not certified for that and thus may not be reliable

ARM CPUs are capable of really serious performance, but just not these ARM CPUs - and even with Apple's Mx silicon, what really makes them useful are the hardware accelerators for very specific use cases.

When you can pick up a 6th-7th gen I5 or i7 NUC second hand for not much more than this with expandable memory, storage and proper I/O, the Pi isn't really a contender for a daily in my opinion.

Don't disagree.
'Daily driver' means different things to different people I guess.

I have half a dozen Pi's and more Arduinos that I use in custom electronic instruments that I've built that interact with Max.
I also have one Pi4 as a Homebridge server/Pi Hole.

Using a Pi as an every day computer would be difficult as my 'daily' needs are Pro Tools, Logic Pro, Nuendo etc.
Due to Logic that means... a Mac.
If it wasn't for that then I'd be able to run a PC as my main machine, instead of something I just game on, or use for certain audio apps that don't exist on Mac (Acid Pro) or my labelling software.

I have a 10th Gen Nuc here that I use for a few things (Patch Cad especially) but, even using an expansion chassis for Thunderbolt, it is still very limited in terms of IO.

If I was PC only then I wouldn't want to have to move to a different computer just to use Pro Tools or play a game, so the NUC isn't going to work for me.

If it was just admin, networking, web etc then it wouldn't be a problem but that is such a small part of my day.

In terms of running costs, the Mac Studio sips power, I haven't compared it to a NUC but maybe I should.
The Pihole costs pennies to run.

digitalscream · October 2023

octatonic said:

'Daily driver' means different things to different people I guess.

Troof, I guess.

For me, my 7th-gen i7 Chromebook is as low as I'd want to go for basic browsing and such - it does chug very occasionally, and I can't imagine that the Pi 5 is going to be anywhere close to matching that level of performance. Obviously it's a fanless mobile CPU rather than a desktop unit, but that's pretty much an apples-to-apples comparison with the kind of processor in these SBCs.

The Pi has always sat in a weird spot for me - too complex for basic automation stuff, but not powerful enough for the more complex bits. I'm currently considering building an automation system with multiple steppers and sensors (analogue and digital), and honestly...I can't even use a Pi for that because of the non-existent analogue I/O. I'd rather use a bunch of Pi Pico W boards and coordinate them over the network from a more full-fledged like my desktop or home server.

That said, if the Pi 5 can be persuaded to boot properly fast, then I might use one for the digital OBD II dash project that's been burbling around in my mind for the last couple of years (driving an ancient MG, you want as much information as to what's going on in the engine as you can get).

Sporky · October 2023

digitalscream said:

The Pi has always sat in a weird spot for me - too complex for basic automation stuff, but not powerful enough for the more complex bits.

Likewise - for me it's a no-man's-land between an Arduino and a tablet or PC.

However, that's clearly a sweet spot for a lot of people with different applications from mine.

monquixote · October 2023

I totally agree.

The performance bump for spending slightly more on a NUC makes them pointless for use as a desktop.

They are hopeless for teaching kids to code as was the intent compared to any cheap pc with python.

They use too much power for embedded iot applications and lack the IO.

I think the sweet spot is retro arcade and even there it much easier to buy one of the dedicated boxes or music. The current gen Korg synths are internally a Pi.

Emp_Fab · October 2023

I love my Arduino. I've never used it for anything really but I love what it's capable of and I get a warm fuzzy glow everytime I see it in my "unfinished projects" drawer

digitalscream · October 2023

monquixote said:

They are hopeless for teaching kids to code as was the intent compared to any cheap pc with python.

To be fair, I think the goal there was slightly different - they could be used at negligible cost in a school, set up by the IT teacher, and not on the school network...thereby bypassing the exhorbitant (and usually completely unjustified) costs involved in getting the 3rd party supplier to make changes to the locked-down machines to allow IDEs etc to run.

ElectricXII · October 2023

digitalscream said:

When you can pick up a 6th-7th gen I5 or i7 NUC second hand for not much more than this with expandable memory, storage and proper I/O, the Pi isn't really a contender for a daily in my opinion.

I agree. I've got my mum's old HP compact desktop on Gumtree and FBM and nobody seems to want it so far. It's a decent spec for emailing and browsing - i5 8GB RAM with 1TB storage - bundled with a keyboard and 19" monitor for £120. I'll probably drop price soon.

Stratavarious · October 2023

Surprised how good Reaper ran on m Pi4… handy for utility applications and gig recorder from multitrack interface desk

Bod · October 2023

I'm using two RPi 4's. One is running Plex, the other Home Assistant. I was running both on just one at one point and it performed admirably. I decided to split them after I started using AdGuard, Node-RED and Grafana with HA. I don't see any need to upgrade to a 5 just yet, though the option to add an NVme drive appeals.

octatonic · October 2023

These are quite fun- I have one here that I intended to use for an audio installation project that I haven't done yet.
It was the only one I could buy at the time, normally I'd have gone for the regular Pi.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08Q5YFM9C

Image: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71Bvd8VtwsL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

When Pi can do PCIE 4.0 with onboard NVME I'd probably have a lot more use for one.

monquixote · October 2023

digitalscream said:

monquixote said:

They are hopeless for teaching kids to code as was the intent compared to any cheap pc with python.

To be fair, I think the goal there was slightly different - they could be used at negligible cost in a school, set up by the IT teacher, and not on the school network...thereby bypassing the exhorbitant (and usually completely unjustified) costs involved in getting the 3rd party supplier to make changes to the locked-down machines to allow IDEs etc to run.

Once you've got a case, mouse, keyboard etc then I would think any crappy old secondhand laptop would be better and probably cheaper.

The earlier ones were especially annoying as virtually any software you wanted had to be compiled from source with bespoke build settings because it had a slightly weird architecture.

TTony · October 2023

My main media player is a pi4, plus DAC HAT & cooling, plus now a touch screen (not necessary as Volumio runs via a browser but it’s handy sometimes).

2 x 500gb microSD cards hold the content. I physically move it around the house to plug into the main hifi or my study mini, or the bedroom “radio”, or the kitchen area, or my workshop, or the cabin, or …

Plus it’s easy to pack for holiday trips (with the Bose mini speaker).

I could use NAS over the Wi-Fi, but that doesn’t reach the last 2 places, takes longer to boot and has a less simple UI. So I just pick up the pi4 case and plug it in wherever it’s needed. NAS serves as backup.

Seemed like a good option for that use case (and lots of others), but I see it as that sort of niche hobby opti9n rather than a do-it-all / do-anything alternative to “proper” PCs (whatever OS).

digitalscream · October 2023

^^ that's where I see the usefulness of the Pi - single-purpose units.

I suppose the thing that the Pi 5 is capable of that previous units couldn't do is being a NAS. The single-lane PCIE might be capable of running a SAS card, and if it can run one at PCIE 3.0 speeds then you might be able to get some reasonable performance out of a RAID array. Then run a 2.5Gbe or 5Gbe network dongle off one of the USB 3.0 ports, and...yeah, I can see how that'd do a reasonably decent job of it. If, of course, the CPU can keep up.

From my personal perspective, that could even potentially be a low-power replacement for my current 12-core Xeon server, which is running 5 x 1.6TB SSDs in ZFS, along with Minecraft and media servers - my network's only 2.5Gbe, so it only needs to be able to reliably hit 300MB/s over the network...depends entirely on whether the CPU's up to the job, though.

guitartango · October 2023

If you are a heavy computer user, then the Pi will never replace your Desktop , I know a few people who have replaced their ageing computers with a Pi 4 just to do a bit of surfing and the odd retro game. If you already have a monitor K/M then its not a bad outlay.

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