Friedman Head & 'Metal' Pedal OR Engl Head & Friedman Pedal

HT986M2 · September 2023

So long story short, I'm looking to buy a valve head that combines my love of metal and Marshall tones. Think Black Album, Appetite For Destruction & Highway to Hell.

To achieve this - and without breaking the bank - I'm looking for advice on whether it would be best to buy a Friedman amp for the Marshall tones combined with a 'metal' pedal for the metal tones, or get a Engl Fireball 25 and use a Friedman Dirty Shirley or Friedman Smallbox pedal through the clean channel.

I really like what I've heard of Friedman amps. I find it easier to get *the* Marshall sound that is in my head on a Friedman than on an actual Marshall. I have tried Marshalls and Friedman's and that is the conclusion I've come to. I would get either the Mini Dirty Shirley or Pink Taco. Whilst I've tried them in the past, I cannot try these locally at the minute because no one has stock.

I also really like what I've head of the Engl Fireball 25. It's a super versatile amp from what I've heard, and it has a good clean channel that takes pedals well. I haven't tried this amp myself though, and cannot try it locally.

Friedman amps obviously have a bit of a premium pricetag here in the UK. For the same price of a new Friedman head, I could just about get an Engl Fireball 25, Engl 2x12 and a Friedman pedal.

The Victory Sheriff 25 is also an option instead of a Friedman. However, I've tried Friedman and Engl amps in the past so I sort-of know what to expect. Victory amps are a complete unknown to me. The Sheriff is also only a hundred pounds cheaper than the Friedman Dirty Shirley/ Pink Taco, and I've heard the Victory amps are PCB-based whereas the Victory's are not. So I think that extra money does get you a better product? Happy to be corrected though. The Friedman's master volumes are superb too.

I'm leaning towards the Fireball since it's also got some great rock tones up it's sleeve. The Dirty Shirley pedal also gets superb reviews, so I know with a clean valve channel it should get me 80-90% of the Friedman amp sound. Also, from past experience, I think there are better Marshall-in-a-box pedals than 'metal' pedals.

Is there a reason that I am missing that would be more beneficial to get the Friedman head instead? I guess it ultimately boils down to which tone I favour (i.e. rock vs metal), but I would welcome any opinions.

Nerine · September 2023

Get the Friedman.

I’d suggest PT20 v2

Onpar · September 2023

I gig a Friedman Dirty Shirley mini with 1 x 12 cab. I either run it in high gain mode and use my volume control to adjust gain levels. Or more often, I run the clean setting with a small box pedal and/or a Friedman BEOD Deluxe pedal to get my crunch and soaring lead tones. Both ways of working sound very similar.

This highlights a really important point. A Friedman pedal through an Engl will sound like an Engl, where as a Friedman pedal (or most other pedals) through a Friedman clean(ish) setting will sound like a Friedman. Pedals sound wildly different rough different amps. My opinion is that the inherent base tone of the amp makes the most difference as you are boosting/adding to an existing core tone of the amp.

I have the Friedman Dirty Shirley Mini head for sale in the classifieds for £860. It's frickin amazing. I'm only selling as the other guitarist in the band has a full size Marshall head and cab and I want the same purely for the look on stage. And it nails AC/DC and Guns n Roses. We play Rock n Roll Damnation, Highway to Hell, Whole lotta Rosie, Sweet Child O Mine. Plus Van Halen, Pink Floyd, Free, Rolling Stones. It pretty much covers all these tones IMHO.

Hope this helps.

HT986M2 · September 2023

Onpar said:
This highlights a really important point. A Friedman pedal through an Engl will sound like an Engl, where as a Friedman pedal (or most other pedals) through a Friedman clean(ish) setting will sound like a Friedman. Pedals sound wildly different rough different amps. My opinion is that the inherent base tone of the amp makes the most difference as you are boosting/adding to an existing core tone of the amp.

That's a very good point, and one that I was aware of in the back of my head, but didn't even register in this particular scenario! Regardless of the style (i.e. metal or rock) it would most likely be that Marshall-style base tone that I'd look to retain. So that most likely puts the Engl out of the running until such a time that I may want a metal-specific amp.

So would you rate the setup you referenced? I.e. a lower gain Friedman (Dirty Shirley) with the use of other pedals (Friedman in this case) to reach higher gain tones while retaining and emphasising the base amp tone?

Onpar · September 2023

HT986M2 said:

Onpar said:
This highlights a really important point. A Friedman pedal through an Engl will sound like an Engl, where as a Friedman pedal (or most other pedals) through a Friedman clean(ish) setting will sound like a Friedman. Pedals sound wildly different rough different amps. My opinion is that the inherent base tone of the amp makes the most difference as you are boosting/adding to an existing core tone of the amp.

That's a very good point, and one that I was aware of in the back of my head, but didn't even register in this particular scenario! Regardless of the style (i.e. metal or rock) it would most likely be that Marshall-style base tone that I'd look to retain. So that most likely puts the Engl out of the running until such a time that I may want a metal-specific amp.

So would you rate the setup you referenced? I.e. a lower gain Friedman (Dirty Shirley) with the use of other pedals (Friedman in this case) to reach higher gain tones while retaining and emphasising the base amp tone?

At home, I don't run the pedals. I just go straight into the amp. It doesn't need pedals - it gets pretty high gain level on it's own if that's what is required.

At gig level live in the mix it almost makes no difference. I tend to use the pedals just because I have a pedal board with tuner etc on anyway, so stomping on pedals can make it slightly easier and also easier to get much cleaner tones (base amp tone for pedals) for funk and other cleanish tones I need for various numbers throughout the set.

HT986M2 · September 2023

Having done a bit more research and listening I think it's down to the Little Sister or Pink Taco V2.

I'm initially drawn to the PT, since I really don't play with any less gain than what is found on your standard AC/DC or GNR song, and I think it could easily be pushed into Metallica territory. However, I'm not sure if I'll miss out on the more vintage voiced LS for cleans.

I could theoretically run the LS a bit dirty and ride the guitar volume pot for cleans, then have a pedal to get it into rock territory and have another pedal to hopefully push it into a bit of thrash.

Or is it best to just have that balls-out rock tone to begin with and ride the volume for lower gain things? Argh!

sgosden · September 2023

are you going to be gigging and need switching instantly?

if not, look at the JJ Jr .
The normal gain channel CAN do classic rock at low gain, with lower pickups. it also can do heavy by itself or boosted.

the JJ switch adds more saturation and tightens / compresses more. A TS infront does as much metal as you'll ever need.
But there is a volume drop, so you can't just switch between the two which is annoying.

HT986M2 · September 2023

sgosden said:

are you going to be gigging and need switching instantly?

if not, look at the JJ Jr .
The normal gain channel CAN do classic rock at low gain, with lower pickups. it also can do heavy by itself or boosted.

the JJ switch adds more saturation and tightens / compresses more. A TS infront does as much metal as you'll ever need.
But there is a volume drop, so you can't just switch between the two which is annoying.

Purely home use at this stage. However, I would want to be able to switch tones pretty quickly. So if I was wanting to switch sounds that are available on the amp I'd be wanting to be able to flick a switch - or hit a pedal - and nothing more. I had an amp in the past with a noticeable volume difference between channels, and so from personal experience i know it would do my head in.

Nerine · September 2023

I need to reiterate. Get the Pink Taco V2.

It’s a great amp.

I have a Small Box for reference.

It’ll be far more suitable for your needs.

HT986M2 · September 2023

I think this video sold me on the sounds of the PTV2

https://youtu.be/8nweXhJRJuQ?feature=shared

It's got a lot of range! I've also come across a separate video which easily gets the PT into metal territory with a KSR Eros boost

I now just have to decide if I want a dedicated clean channel. The PT20 won't be a problem on my dual-volume pot guitars, but may pose a problem on others.

I think I'm now pretty clear the Friedman's will get me where I want in terms of my base sound at this time. I just need to have a look at PT and Runt comparisons to confirm

HT986M2 · September 2023

Hmm ... I might have dismissed the JJ Junior too quickly. That's a nice clean channel! I think I might have misunderstood the HBE reference initially, since I thought it was the channel switching that had the volume issue, rather than the HBE mode itself. I don't think that would be a problem now that I think about it. It's a shame most Friedmans are out of stock locally and are only available for order.

CarpeDiem · September 2023

The clean channel on the JJ Jr works really well fir me. The volume jump only occurs on the higher gain HBE switch setting. I’m really impressed with mine, and I’ve found there’s plenty of clean headroom when playing with a drummer.

sgosden · September 2023

Ah yes.
JJ jnr has separate volumes for clean and dirty.

Dirty has a switch for normal / JBE.

If you really want mega gainz. Could use a dizel preamp or something as a pre amp ?

HT986M2 · September 2023

The absolute bleeding obvious has just hit me square in the face.

Friedman Pink Taco V2 or JJ Junior = ~£1600

Marshall 2525H + Engl Fireball 25 = ~£1600

I'm a moron for not seeing it sooner.

I'll not be getting the more 'polished' Friedman tone, but I'll be getting both tones that I am after. Worst comes to worst - and I don't quite get on with the 'true' Marshall tone - I can throw a Friedman pedal in front of the Marshall.

I guess now it's time to choose a cab that'll compliment both.

Leftian · September 2023

Here’s a curveball. I’ve been chasing the same tones as you, but also need a good clean for some things. Ideally I wanted the same amp for rehearsal, home and gigging. I’ve settled on a 2nd hand JVM210H. It has all the tones, great switching for live and is surprisingly good a lower volumes, its a true master volume amp designed to be useable at wide range of volumes, from almost bedroom to thunder! I got it with 4x12 for less than you are considering. Don’t always take the 4x12 to rehearsal though!

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Friedman Head & 'Metal' Pedal OR Engl Head & Friedman Pedal

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