Guitar not returning to pitch…

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

One of my guitars has an issue with g string returning to pitch if using the trem (downwards). It always come back up sharp. No pinging from the nut.

Tonight I popped the string out of the nut slot and left it sitting on top of the nut, tuned it to pitch, dived the trem and it still came up sharp. There’s no chance it was the nut binding given the string wasn’t in a slot. What else could be causing this? Any suggestions?

guitars4you · September 2023

To confirm it is not the nut then tune up as normal . Then gently push down the G string behind the nut ( so between the nut and tuner) - If it goes sharp still then almost certainly still the nut - If all okay then looks like the trem itself

Is it a vintage style trem or modern 2 post fulcrum trem

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

Thanks.

The trem is a Mann made 6 screw type, about 4 or 5 years old.

I don’t seem to have any sticking at the nut if I bend the string behind the nut.

ICBM · September 2023

If there’s no string tree, it can be only one of four things…

1. Sticking at the nut.
2. Movement at the bridge saddle.
3. Backlash in the machinehead.
4. Faulty string. (Very unlikely with a plain one.)

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

Thanks. No string tree, but a mild back angle and height adjustable posts.

I can confirm it’s unlikely to be 4…it’s has numerous string sets and still does this.

What kind of movement is possible at the trem saddle end? The Mann made
saddles are pretty well wedged in there.

The machine heads are Gotoh HAPs and I really don’t like them, if I could change them without making mods to the headstock I probably would. Maybe just need to try another single one in the g string slot.

Funkfingers · September 2023

Moe_Zambeek said:

The machine heads are Gotoh HAPs and I really don’t like them

Gotoh HAP 'heads are height-adjustable locking types. They come in various formats - modern, sealed gear types with a threaded front fastening and Kluson Safety replicas with a push-in bushing.

Q1 - Is the string post perpendicular to the headstock face? (No leaning towards the nut.) Hex nut fastenings should be fully nipped up. Push-in bushings should not be lifting out of their holes.

Q2 - Is the height adjustment mechanism locked into position?

Q3 - How many turns of string do you have around the string posts?

Q4 - Do you use coated strings? Some locking mechanisms struggle to grip coatings properly.

Moe_Zambeek said:

Mann made 6 screw type

Q5 - Are the pivot screws smooth shafted at the mushroom head end like a Fender or notched like PRS?

If the screws are notched, it is critical that the notches be perfectly aligned. Otherwise, return to pitch is unlikely.

ICBM · September 2023

Funkfingers said:

If the screws are notched, it is critical that the notches be perfectly aligned. Otherwise, return to pitch is unlikely.

That’s true, but if the whole bridge is sticking then all the strings would be out of tune (and flat, after a down-bend). So that isn’t it…

(My 2002 PRS was like that initially because the bridge was slightly curved!)

PAL · September 2023

Hi. You don't say if the strings are old or you have just restrung your guitar.
Although you tried the G sting on the top of the nut the issue may be with the other strings !
I would check the three wound strings as the winds on the string can hitch up in the nut also if they are the strings that need
to be stretched in the most this is because the winds once again go around the core of the string.
The other thing that is worth doing is if you can lay your hands on some of those small brushes that are used for eyelashes
just brush out the slots in the nut because sweat from you hands will travel along the strings and settle in the nut so the
nut gets clogged up so keeping the nut clean is important. I know there are products out there made to lubricate the nut
but my own experience is it just collect dust and debris so I don't use anything like that.
It's also worth checking the trem springs are seated properly as well.
The other thing to check is as it's a Mann made trem just check the six screws are level.
I hope some of this will help. Good luck.

Funkfingers · September 2023

Moe_Zambeek said:

What kind of movement is possible at the trem saddle end? The Mann made
saddles are pretty well wedged in there.

Bridge saddles should be adjusted so that their tops are parallel to the baseplate. If the saddles are tilted at all, they can squirm about whenever string tension reduces. (i.e. During a down bend.)

Similarly, even if the saddles are set correctly, each saddle's height adjustment grub screws should be in good contact with the baseplate.

The string may have chewed a groove into the saddle surface.

If the stringing holes through the baseplate have non-countersunk edges, a string can snag there.

If the string anchoring holes on the underside of the sustain block are worn, this can affect tuning stability.

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

Need to dig into this in more detail clearly

Everything is tight and square but the question about the height adjustment being locked into place is worth exploring I think - the answer is I don’t know, one of the things I dislike about the HAPs is that the manual they came with is completely useless and I could never figure out how the height adjustment works. Having said that. I’ve not changed them since I got the guitar so…time to YouTube I guess.

Strings are new ish and non-coated but it happens with new strings too. It’s only ever the G string that gets stuck, everything else comes back to pitch more or less exactly.

Danny1969 · September 2023

Generally it is always the G string that sticks. All that early Van Halen Stuff like Eruption is a standard 6 screw strat trem and he kept it more or less in tune by grabbing the G string after a dive and pulling it so it wasn't sharp when it returned.

For gentle more Shadows type of trem though all the strings should return more or less right but the G string does seem to be the one string more sensitive to pitch problems

guitars4you · September 2023

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:

If the screws are notched, it is critical that the notches be perfectly aligned. Otherwise, return to pitch is unlikely.

That’s true, but if the whole bridge is sticking then all the strings would be out of tune (and flat, after a down-bend). So that isn’t it…

(My 2002 PRS was like that initially because the bridge was slightly curved!)

Possible that the 'notch' on the G string is worn

Warning - Don't adjust any of the 6 bridge 'notch' screws when at pitch - de-tune significantly first, as this can damage/ware out the fulcrum point at the notch on the screw

never quite sure why, but sometimes with such an issue I can turn the G string (or appropriate string) screw an 1/8 of a turn, either way and solve it - And/or turn it to/fro and return - I find it hard to know if all 6 notches are perfectly aligned, which they need to be

guitars4you · September 2023

See if this helps you - Just copied from another web site page

Tuning and Setup Hints
If the guitar is returning sharp after using the tremolo arm, put a little lightweight machine oil under the head of each screw (do not loosen the screws). This will effectively oil the knife-edge of the tremolo. The correct adjustment of the six brass screws, which act as a pivot and anchor the tremolo system, is level with each other so the bridge floats 1/16″ off the body. These 6 screws are factory adjusted and you really should not have to adjust them at all. If it becomes necessary to adjust the 6 notched screws, make sure the guitar is detuned or you will ruin the knife-edge. Adjust the screws incrementally so the notches under the screw heads are fitted with the corresponding hole in the bridge. These holes serve as the knife-edge on which the tremolo unit rocks. Again, this is a very tricky adjustment and could ruin the knife-edge if done improperly.

The bridge saddles should be low in the range of adjustment to keep the action low and leverage of the bridge in good working order. They should be adjusted so that the height of the string at the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string is 2/32″. If the tremolo bridge is not floating 1/16″ off the body, remove the tremolo back plate. Adjust the claw screws about 1/4 turn at a time until the bridge floats perpendicular to and about 1/16th off the body. Tune to pitch and check, re-adjust until the bridge sits properly. When the tremolo is adjusted properly and the guitar is in tune, the tremolo arm will raise the low E string pitch to F#: no more, no less. The intonation may be adjusted by moving the (6) Phillips-head screws facing the tail end of the guitar in and out with a Phillips-head screwdriver. Match the octave (fretted) note of all six strings with their corresponding 12th fret open harmonics by shortening or lengthening the strings with the adjusting screws. Remember to tune and retune until the process is complete.

guitars4you · September 2023

Or try this from John Mann - move forward to about 7 mins
https://www.google.com/search?q=Johnmann+tremolo+tuning+stability&sca_esv=567523571&rlz=1C1SFXN_enGB499GB499&ei=hFENZfLcI4q_hbIP4MShoA4&ved=0ahUKEwjyrvXI572BAxWKX0EAHWBiCOQQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=Johnmann+tremolo+tuning+stability&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiIUpvaG5tYW5uIHRyZW1vbG8gdHVuaW5nIHN0YWJpbGl0eTIFEAAYogQyBRAAGKIEMgUQABiiBEjNM1AAWKAhcAB4AZABAJgBugGgAeUIqgEDOC4zuAEDyAEA-AEBwgIGEAAYBxgewgIEEAAYHsICBhAAGAgYHsICCBAAGIoFGIYDwgIGEAAYHhgNwgIIEAAYBRgeGA3iAwQYACBBiAYB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&ip=1&vld=cid:8ac96114,vid:cHA_xu844Rs,st:0

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

I’ve just remembered I said it was a 6 screw bridge but it’s actually a 2-post Mann made. Doh. Anyway will watch the vid and see what’s what…

BillDL · September 2023

I think it would be worthwhile paying very close attention to the chamfered fulcrum stud, especially the one on the treble side, to see if it moves in the anchor bushing embedded in the guitar body when you move the trem arm. Look carefully to see whether that anchor bushing itself has any movement. Logic would tell you that if it was loose in the body it would also affect the return to pitch of other strings, but the mass of the unwound G string's "core" will always make that string a bit of an odd-ball in its behaviour and it's worth checking this.

I believe I would be concentrating on the G string tuner for this particular problem.

guitars4you · September 2023

Moe_Zambeek said:

I’ve just remembered I said it was a 6 screw bridge but it’s actually a 2-post Mann made. Doh. Anyway will watch the vid and see what’s what…

In someways that makes it easier to suss what is happening as technically if the G is going sharp, due to a bridge issue, then the same should happen to the E/B etc - On a 6 screw bridge assembly you might get individual variation but it shouldn't happen like this on a 2 point

If you have eliminated the nut (and most issues are nut related) then you need to look at the string and its contact with the saddle, even its exit point from the trem block - Is the string snagging on the saddle - Might be a burr/rough bit on the saddle or you do hear of issues with the ball end in the 'base' of the trem block

Try a drop of oil on the 2 point fulcrum notch/contact - Try and clean any debris/rough contact on the saddle itself, where the string makes contact - Try a drop off oil on this contact - Even try an appropriate drill size bit where the ball end makes contact in the trem block - Do it gently, but can the string sit 'smarter' in the block

The nut is generally the chief suspect, but if you looked/tried my initial comment earlier, then that should imply the nut is not the issue

Funkfingers · September 2023

Photographs would help. From the machinehead post to the bridge saddle.

jaymenon · September 2023

Your G steering is possibly snagging at the top of the baseplate where it makes a 45º bend forwards to the saddle.

If you tune up your guitar and then bend the G string a good three semitones do you find it it comes back flat?

ICBM · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Possible that the 'notch' on the G string is worn

That would still make the whole bridge stick - it moves as a single unit, so then all the strings would still be out of tune. If the problem is at the bridge end it must be the string moving at either the saddle, the contact point through the baseplate, or the ball end, or the whole saddle moving.

guitars4you said:

never quite sure why, but sometimes with such an issue I can turn the G string (or appropriate string) screw an 1/8 of a turn, either way and solve it - And/or turn it to/fro and return - I find it hard to know if all 6 notches are perfectly aligned, which they need to be

With the PRS I had, the whole bridge was subtly 'dished' - a casting shrinkage flaw I think - so the notches being in a straight line then made the bridge bind. I solved it by carefully turning each of the four middle screws until I could feel it come slightly loose against the plate, so they were then in a matching curve to the bridge. Although that technically shouldn't work, over the small angle the bridge moves through it does.

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/035d47cf0522e55cc55c1e3c7cc91bb3d2fb47ca7c4648573d

HAL9000 · September 2023

Had something similar some years back. Admittedly a hardtail guitar but if you bent the G string it wouldn’t quite return to pitch. Turned out that there was the smallest (no, smaller than that) burr / piece of plastic debris in the nut. I’d already tried lubricating with pencil lead, etc. In the end I bought a wound G and pulled it through the nut a couple of times and a tiny (no, smaller than that) piece of plastic pinged out. It was ok after that.

guitars4you · September 2023

HAL9000 said:

Had something similar some years back. Admittedly a hardtail guitar but if you bent the G string it wouldn’t quite return to pitch. Turned out that there was the smallest (no, smaller than that) burr / piece of plastic debris in the nut. I’d already tried lubricating with pencil lead, etc. In the end I bought a wound G and pulled it through the nut a couple of times and a tiny (no, smaller than that) piece of plastic pinged out. It was ok after that.

A wound G is handy if you don't have nut files and not worth buying a set if only to be used once/twice - As you say it doesn't take much debris to cause major issues

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

Haven’t forgotten this and appreciate all the comments. Not yet had time and light good enough for pix.

Last nights experiments: tuned to pitch, strings stretched, bend string behind the nut laterally: stays in tune. Bend behind the nut away from headstock face: stays in tune. Drop tuning with the trem: comes back sharp. Pull up on bar afterwards: stays sharp. Pull string away from pickups/ comes back to pitch.

Everything is tight and locked.

What I have noticed is that sometimes when the string is sharp turning the tuning peg makes no noticeable difference for a short period of rotation then starts to change the pitch. Might be psychosomatic.

For gentle wobbling and general vibrato use it’s actually pretty stable, it’s just bigger down bends where it seems to fail.

digitalkettle · September 2023

Moe_Zambeek said:

What I have noticed is that sometimes when the string is sharp turning the tuning peg makes no noticeable difference for a short period of rotation then starts to change the pitch. Might be psychosomatic.

Probably just machine head hysteresis...always tune up to pitch.

I've got a Suhr with a 2-post Gotoh 510 where this kind of thing was happening...I just developed a nervous tick to tug on a string when it needed to be brought back in-line

A few months ago, I got a set of Wilkinson WLS130 saddles...newfangled locking type...they've really improved things.

Funkfingers · September 2023

Moe_Zambeek said:
What I have noticed is that, sometimes, when the string is sharp, turning the tuning peg makes no noticeable difference for a short period of rotation then starts to change the pitch.

Funkfingers said:
Q3 - How many turns of string do you have around the string posts?

Still unanswered. Could be significant.

•

To date, no mention has been made of what guitar design has this issue. Considerations such as tilt-back headstock, droopy headstock and 3x3 versus 6-in-line could all make a difference.

The Jackson/Charvel tilted and droopy headstock is especially troublesome when no double locking string clamp is involved. Nut slots need to be angled *just so* and their edges tumbled on the machinehead side. Otherwise, strings snag.

Does the machinehead lock each string with a ball bearing or with a metal pin? Sometimes, a defect on the end of the pin impairs grip.

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

About 3/4s of a wind on the post, maybe less, consistent with what the locking mechanism needs, and the headstock is slightly back angled with a straight string pull. No string trees as the HAPs are meant to address that.

I’ll have to check the locking mechanism, I think it’s a pin.

ICBM · September 2023

That sounds like backlash in the machinehead gears to me.

Try doing the opposite of the normally correct practice of tuning up to the note - tune down to it just on that string - and see what happens.

Moe_Zambeek · September 2023

Tuning down to the note I still get it coming up sharp after significant pitch drops with the bar.

Maybe worth trying a new tuner in that slot to see if that helps…

digitalkettle · September 2023

Moe_Zambeek said:

Tuning down to the note I still get it coming up sharp after significant pitch drops with the bar.

Maybe worth trying a new tuner in that slot to see if that helps…

Has it always done this? I mean, it is a 'thing' with non-locking trem setups: you dip the bar, the string goes loose, then gets pinched on the saddle upon return (hence the tug on the string to bring it back). That's what the Wilkinson saddles solve (mentioned above).

jaymenon · September 2023

digitalkettle said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

Tuning down to the note I still get it coming up sharp after significant pitch drops with the bar.

Maybe worth trying a new tuner in that slot to see if that helps…

Has it always done this? I mean, it is a 'thing' with non-locking trem setups: you dip the bar, the string goes loose, then gets pinched on the saddle upon return (hence the tug on the string to bring it back). That's what the Wilkinson saddles solve (mentioned above).

Actually it’s not at the saddle - but at the top of the baseplate.

guitars4you · September 2023

ICBM said:

That sounds like backlash in the machinehead gears to me.

Try doing the opposite of the normally correct practice of tuning up to the note - tune down to it just on that string - and see what happens.

And/or change the D tuner to the G, or B to G etc and see if the problem now changes string or indeed goes away

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Guitar not returning to pitch…

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