Chord progression F D A E, what key is this in?

RelayDuzzy · September 2023

Hi all, I've been trying to figure out what key this chord progression is in from the song "Love and communication" by Cat Power. From some online tabs I found, it's basically F D A E and sounds right (and good). At first I thought it was in A major, but the F chord is the outlier. Also, the funny thing is that if I change the chords to F Dm Am E, it also sounds right. If I further change it to F Dm Am Em, it also sounds about right. Does it mean it's in A minor? But if so, why does changing the D A and E to major work?

What is the general theory about when you can change chords in a key like this?

Tannin · September 2023

It's in E. We know it's in E because E is the only chord in the progression which feels at rest, which doesn't want to go anywhere.

So the next question is what sort of E? I'm not sure it's all that helpful to follow this through, nor that I have the knowledge to do it properly, but let's ask ourselves what sort of key is an E but includes F?

Ans: Phrygian. Either plain Phrygian or Phrygian major (also called "dominant Phrygian").

E Phrygian is the 3rd mode of C major and contains the notes E F G A B C D from which you can make the chords:

Em, F, G, Am, B half-diminished, C, Dm

E Phrygian major is the 5th mode of A harmonic minor and contains the notes E F G# A B C D from which you can make the chords:

E, F, G# diminished, Am, B half-diminished, Caug, Dm

Let's try this in E Phrygian major. We get the F and the E, immediately, and we can regard the A and the D as borrowed chords from ... well, from whatever you like really.

viz · September 2023

Whereas I think it’s in A major, but it has a borrowed chord from A minor, which is the F.

The piece starts with F and D, but those are pre-chords. The actual sequence, as it turns out when the keyboard intro starts and when the singing starts, is A E F D. Which is I-V-bVI-IV.

If it were an F#m, you’d have the ubiquitous I-V-vi-IV, or 1564, used in everything from Since You Been Gone to With Or Without You.

But instead of the minor 6 chord, you have that major “flat 6”, which you’d have in A minor. Hence it’s “borrowing the 6 chord from A minor”.

It’s very common to borrow a chord from the key’s minor key (or major key if the song’s in minor). But the normal 1564 is soooo often played, that it’s quite rare to hear it disrupted in this way. I like it!

(Art is personal so I’m not saying Tannin is wrong, just that my ear hears that E as the dominant and the A as the tonic, or at-rest note. And after cycling through the progression continuously throughout the song, they do in fact end up resting on it.)

stickyfiddle · September 2023

I'm with @Viz. ;

But also it's fucky and doesn't quite follow the "rules" that traditional theory would set out for what should "work". The D major is where the slight disonance comes in for me - it's dying to be a Dm. Similarly most of the time the E is Em but there are points where it's overtly played as an E major.

This is a great example of why I always say melody and chordal content should come first, and theory should come second...

viz · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

The D major is where the slight disonance comes in for me - it's dying to be a Dm.

That’s because the borrowed F has an influence beyond its own time, like those images that flip between correct and inside out, it puts a bit of your brain momentarily in A minor, so you’re expecting a Dm chord because of the F you just heard. Then when you hear the D major chord it almost sounds momentarily as though you’re in A Dorian. But then you anticipate the A again and remember you’re in A major.

Can’t hear any Em chords btw. That G# is in all the E chords I heard (I didn’t listen to the end, mind)

Danny1969 · September 2023

I hear it in A maj too ... the main meat being the A maj, E maj , F and D progression with a constant A5 chime being played over every chord throughout

I think sometimes a little knowledge can confuse the issue. Once I knew a little theory I kind of expected music to obey the rules to a large extent but in reality the key of a song ... if given, should only serve you as a rough guide to what chords and notes to expect. In rock music there isn't a lot of pure diatonic music .. it generally uses a lot of borrowed chords and different modes.

The F and D are more 5 chords in this piece on a quick listen ... I don't hear the 3rd a lot so you have more latitude with the flavour of the other chords

Also bear in mind a of music, literally some of the best is written by songwriters who have no idea of keys and music theory so sometimes we look for rules that were never played to.

viz · September 2023

^ agree with your and SF’s points about music coming first btw. I’m just using theory to analyse the how and why. But like everyone else, I’m first asking the question, where does home feel, and is it major or minor tonality. Only then do I think are there any variations, do they have a name, and how and why do they work.

Tannin · September 2023

viz said:

Whereas I think it’s in A major, but it has a borrowed chord from A minor, which is the F.

The piece starts with F and D, but those are pre-chords. The actual sequence, as it turns out when the keyboard intro starts and when the singing starts, is A E F D. Which is I-V-bVI-IV.

.........

(Art is personal so I’m not saying Tannin is wrong, just that my ear hears that E as the dominant and the A as the tonic, or at-rest note. And after cycling through the progression continuously throughout the song, they do in fact end up resting on it.)

Ahhh ... I only listened to the intro. It sounded as if they were about to perpetrate some heavy metal so I stopped there.

Danny1969 · September 2023

viz said:

^ agree with your and SF’s points about music coming first btw. I’m just using theory to analyse the how and why. But like everyone else, I’m first answering where does home feel, and is it major or minor tonaility. Only then do I think are there any variations, do they have a name, and how and why do they work.

Oh I know ... what I meant to say is I personally became confused with music once I had a little knowledge and it took me some time to realize the key of a piece is like the UK weather forecast ... it can tell you what's likely but is more often wrong

I love the mechanics of music theory spend ages thinking about the maths behind it

yocky · September 2023

That's a coincidence. I was going to ask about this progression, A Bm D C Bm but @viz answered that I guess. The C is borrowed from the Am?

I wouldn't have given it a second thought until I understood a little bit about modes, then all of a sudden it's an afront to my new "rules".

I'd forgotten about the Cat Power song, thanks for reminding me.

viz · September 2023

^ precisely, and that’s great that you’ve learned some base “rules” and now you’re seeing some variations and understanding them - your theory is blossoming for you. It’s like putting flesh on the skeleton and is a never-ending journey of discovery

Danny1969 said:

Oh I know ... what I meant to say is I personally became confused with music once I had a little knowledge and it took me some time to realize the key of a piece is like the UK weather forecast ... it can tell you what's likely but is more often wrong

I love the mechanics of music theory spend ages thinking about the maths behind it

Ah, yes, very true - me too.

RelayDuzzy · September 2023

Cheers for the insights everyone! I know lots of great tunes purposefully stray outside the strict rules of following a key, and I'm trying to understand the rules of when you can break the rules. Looks like this song is a prime example.

This concept of borrowing a chord from the minor/major version of the key it's in, are there any rules which chord it works best in? e.g. I'm assuming in a major key borrowing the minor 4th or 5th would sound bad, but the 2nd/3rd/6th as majors are easier on the ear?

viz · September 2023

RelayDuzzy said:

I'm assuming in a major key borrowing the minor 4th or 5th would sound bad, but the 2nd/3rd/6th as majors are easier on the ear?

^ not really, they’re all fair game, and in fact some of them are already used in the modes.

Here are some examples, stripping them down to the bare bones. First, a reminder of the diatonic chords. Capital letters denote major chords:

Major: I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim) VIII.

Minor: i ii(dim) bIII iv v bVI bVII viii.

Major song, borrowing a chord from minor:

I-ii -> I-ii(dim): doesn’t really have much effect because the 2 chord has minor tonality in both major and minor. When the chord is used in full triad (diminished) form, it implies a bVI chord (see below), so it’s sometimes used in that context.

I-iii -> I-bIII: eg Smoke on the Water when played as major barre chords. It's very common in rock blues to play major chords on each note of the minor pentatonic scale. This technique also applies to the flat 7th.

I-IV -> I-iv: very common. Duran Duran used to use it a lot. Rachmaninov loved it. Also very common after a major IV chord (IV-iv), like at the end of Don’t Look Back in Anger, when the second time that line is sung, it’s over a minor 4 chord.

I-V -> I-v: this is borrowed from minor, but it’s also just mixolydian, it's more popular in the mixolydian context than the borrowed-from-minor-scale context.

I-vi -> I-bVI: as in the example on this thread. Also often used after the vi chord (vi-bVI), like in What a Wonderful World, over the lines “for me and you; and I think to myself”.

I-vii(dim) -> I-bVII: this is also a mixolydian requirement anyway, so it's more often that rather than borrowing from minor. And in fact the normal vii(dim) chord isn’t really a thing, it’s almost always a V7 chord in 1st inversion.

Minor song, borrowing a chord from major:

i-ii(dim) -> i-ii: As above, these 2-chords are fairly interchangeable. You do quite often hear the not-diminished minor 2-chord in a minor 251, it's also the correct chord to use in Dorian.

i-bIII -> i-iii: quite rare - I need to think of an example.

i-iv -> i-IV: very common. Dorian uses it. We do it all the time when we play in the blues box, like in A minor, barring the 2nd and 3rd string with our first finger on fret 5, then barring fret 7 with our third finger.

i-v -> i-V: very common indeed. This is what Harmonic Minor is there for, to provide a proper V chord in a minor key. It’s actually more common to do this than to stick to strict Aeolian.

i-bVI -> i-vi: not as common as in the borrowed 6th from minor in major above, but does happen, e.g. in Come On Baby Light My Fire.

i-bVII -> i-vii(dim): as in the major section above, the vii(dim) chord is normally a V7 chord in 1st inversion, so this is used a lot, typically in the deployment of Harmonic Minor.

Other common borrowings:

You can also borrow from other modes, or common scales like melodic minor, or any other weird scale for that matter. Couple of examples:

I-II: this is required by Lydian, but can also be the most famous of the secondary dominants - the “dominant of the dominant” in the progression I-II7-V7-I.

I-III: this is often used, either as a functioning secondary dominant resolving up to the relative minor (the vi), eg That’s Life; or in a non-dominant function, like in Radiohead’s Creep.

i-biii: rare. Depeche Mode uses it in the chorus of Shake The Disease.

I (or i) - aug 4 (or dim 5), like in Black Sabbath’s Black Sabbath on Black Sabbath.

I (or i) - bvi: not so common but good effect. Like in Emma Bunton’s Maybe.

I-VI: I need to find an example. I thought Teenage Kicks but on listening, turns out it's a I-vi like normal.

i-bvii: this is required in Phrygian. Normally played down a tone rather than up a 7th!

I-bvii: can’t think of an example but I’m sure there are some.

I-VII: normally used as a secondary dominant to set up a move to the iii chord. Like in Just The Two Of Us. In fact, quite often the iii chord turns out to be the tonic, in which case it was actually a bVII-V-i, not a I-VII-iii.

Cranky · September 2023

Listening to the song, neither the A nor E feels like “home” to me. The E kinda just feels like something played en route to F. Idk what any of this means as far as key signature. I feel like it’s a key of nothing; just four chords that fit a certain way together, implying each other in some way.

RelayDuzzy · October 2023

Thanks @viz that's quite a comprehensive and useful list! When I play around with chords, I've always stuck to the diatonics because they sound right, so this will be super useful in trying out different chords.

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Chord progression F D A E, what key is this in?

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