Fav preamp valves.

markj · September 2023

Looking to change the 12ax7 and 12ay7 in my Gartone 5e3, what's your favourite?
I've got a EH 12ay7 and Tung sol 12ax7 fitted at the moment.
What would you recommend for vintage tone?

tekbow · September 2023

A vintage type circuit.

Not being facetious, but having a box full of formerly NOS (till I used them) Mullards, RFTs, Matsushitas, Teslas, Philips etc, there was very little in it past a particular tube being bad.

That being said, I'm prepared to entertain the possibility that there's more sonic difference between different tubes played clean than played with lots of pre-amp gain.

The only ones I objectively don't like are JJs in a high gain circuit. I decided a few years ago that, actually, I liked properly tested chinese tubes, with the little square metal shield thing inside, the purpose of which has never been clear to me.

Then Shug had either a fire or a factory move, or something, and they've been out of production, forever on the verge of restarting.

Boromedic · September 2023

I'd second the above, Chinese Shuguang made are great preamp valves, can't really hear any difference from some older types. Hard to track down but not impossible.

tekbow · September 2023

Boromedic said:

I'd second the above, Chinese Shuguang made are great preamp valves, can't really hear any difference from some older types. Hard to track down but not impossible.

Yeah, I mean, they were the standard a few years ago, so many of em you virtually couldnt find anything else.

Hope the new factory gets up and running.

markj · September 2023

What about the current makers that are ready available?

Boromedic · September 2023

These are Chinese, not sure on origin though?

https://valvetubeguitaramps.com/product/ps-vane-classic-series-ecc83/

tekbow · September 2023

Boromedic said:

These are Chinese, not sure on origin though?

https://valvetubeguitaramps.com/product/ps-vane-classic-series-ecc83/

PSVane are somehow related to shug, I think it was started by ex shug employees.

@markj basically JJ,. New Sensor (russian) tubes also seem to be available

ElectricXII · September 2023

I've got a Tung Sol in my 5f2 which sounds the business.

Dave_Mc · September 2023

markj said:

Looking to change the 12ax7 and 12ay7 in my Gartone 5e3, what's your favourite?
I've got a EH 12ay7 and Tung sol 12ax7 fitted at the moment.
What would you recommend for vintage tone?

What power tubes do you have, out of interest? I haven't tried a 12AY7, and I don't have a 5E3 (this is going well!

Image: /plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/fb/smiley.png

) but I really like the Tung-Sol 12AX7 in my 5F2-A clone (and other low gain vintage-style amps like my VHT Special 6, Fame Tube 5 and Epiphone Valve Jr) like @ElectricXII - however, it does do a brighter type of tone, and the trick seems to be to sort of match it with the power tube(s) tone to get to where you want (or in the case of the Epi it's dark-to-a-fault already so brighter helps!). But if you're after a more vintage type of tone- and assuming you mean the same thing by it as I do i.e. warmer, sweeter and less in-your-face- the brighter Tung-Sol 12AX7 could well be working against you.

The Tung-Sol 6V6 (which is what I usually match it with) is really middy, warm and creamy so they sort of balance out.

I found a couple of old valves in my uncle's radio valve stash- I've tried a Sylvania 12AX7 and a Brimar 6V6 and a Colomor (not sure what it is, I suspect rebranded modern-ish production- there were no markings on it) 6V6. I think the Sylvania 12AX7 sounded a bit more "vintage", though I wouldn't pay crazy money for one. The Brimar is awesome but again I wouldn't pay too much, the Tung-Sol 6V6 is still pretty darn good. (Granted at current prices you could argue that "even" a Tung-Sol 6V6 is pretty expensive!) The Colomor was pretty nice too but not as nice as the Brimar and probably not as nice as "even" the Tung-Sol.

Also what speaker are you using? Again looking at the whole picture is the thing I think.

EDIT: Oh I haven't got as far as trying a JJ 6V6 in my tweed Princeton- I sort of assumed it might not fit with the alnico speaker. I had a closer look the other day and I think it might, but I haven't got round to trying it yet. But based on trying it in my VHT and Fame Tube 5, I would think it's not the way to go... it's brasher, brighter, harsher, louder etc.. That sounds like I don't like it- I do, but for certain things. It does seem to help accentuate the Black Panel character of my VHT Special 6, for example.

markj · September 2023

Dave_Mc said:

markj said:

Looking to change the 12ax7 and 12ay7 in my Gartone 5e3, what's your favourite?
I've got a EH 12ay7 and Tung sol 12ax7 fitted at the moment.
What would you recommend for vintage tone?

What power tubes do you have, out of interest? I haven't tried a 12AY7, and I don't have a 5E3 (this is going well! ) but I really like the Tung-Sol 12AX7 in my 5F2-A clone (and other low gain vintage-style amps like my VHT Special 6, Fame Tube 5 and Epiphone Valve Jr) like @ElectricXII - however, it does do a brighter type of tone, and the trick seems to be to sort of match it with the power tube(s) tone to get to where you want (or in the case of the Epi it's dark-to-a-fault already so brighter helps!). But if you're after a more vintage type of tone- and assuming you mean the same thing by it as I do i.e. warmer, sweeter and less in-your-face- the brighter Tung-Sol 12AX7 could well be working against you.

The Tung-Sol 6V6 (which is what I usually match it with) is really middy, warm and creamy so they sort of balance out.

I found a couple of old valves in my uncle's radio valve stash- I've tried a Sylvania 12AX7 and a Brimar 6V6 and a Colomor (not sure what it is, I suspect rebranded modern-ish production- there were no markings on it) 6V6. I think the Sylvania 12AX7 sounded a bit more "vintage", though I wouldn't pay crazy money for one. The Brimar is awesome but again I wouldn't pay too much, the Tung-Sol 6V6 is still pretty darn good. (Granted at current prices you could argue that "even" a Tung-Sol 6V6 is pretty expensive!) The Colomor was pretty nice too but not as nice as the Brimar and probably not as nice as "even" the Tung-Sol.

Also what speaker are you using? Again looking at the whole picture is the thing I think.

EDIT: Oh I haven't got as far as trying a JJ 6V6 in my tweed Princeton- I sort of assumed it might not fit with the alnico speaker. I had a closer look the other day and I think it might, but I haven't got round to trying it yet. But based on trying it in my VHT and Fame Tube 5, I would think it's not the way to go... it's brasher, brighter, harsher, louder etc.. That sounds like I don't like it- I do, but for certain things. It does seem to help accentuate the Black Panel character of my VHT Special 6, for example.

Tung-sol 6v6 in the power section, thinking of giving a set of genalux gold lion 6v6 gt a go.

Keefy · September 2023

I’ve never been able to hear that much difference between valves unless I had one that was noisy or dull. By the time I’ve pulled a valve, fitted another one, and let it warm up, I’ve forgotten what my guitar sounded like with the first one!

skay · September 2023

There's definitely a difference in the tone and gain factor between preamp valves IMHO as I have swapped between a few brands in my AC30, I'm mainly talking about V1 here but the Pi does seem to have a large effect as well, and there were some that roared with a strong midrange and some that stayed much cleaner and brighter.

It's the slight tweak to the treble and bass controls on the amp afterwards that confirms the valve has different tonal qualities as some require me to push the treble to bring back some brightness, and others I can hear a fuller midrange and low end, so although not transforming my amp into something else, I have a preference for certain valves in the amps I have owned for a while and know well because of how they bring out the favourable characteristics of the amp in question.

Modulus_Amps · September 2023

I did a test a number of years ago, swapping out all three valves in a JCM800 2204 clone, not only did I swap out the valves I also rotated them to try and see which valve in the set was noisiest.

They do sound different, some are darker and some are brighter, the brighter ones tended to have slightly lower gain.

From Memory:
JJ were the darkest and lowest noise at the time, good for V1 positions, but you might want to avoid in a dark middy amp.
Chinese 12AX7B and 12ax7A were high gain but have good clarity, but you could go through several before finding one that didn't hum or pop etc
Was either Sovtek or EH that were the brightest and lowest gain, The worst valve in the whole lot was one Sovtek that was microphonic in V1, it was fine in other positions.

Saying all that the number one decision for me when putting in valves is acceptable noise levels.

Dave_Mc · September 2023

markj said:
Tung-sol 6v6 in the power section, thinking of giving a set of genalux gold lion 6v6 gt a go.

I haven't tried the gold lions, but I'd say the Tung-Sols sound fairly vintage already. Or at least pretty warm/sweet/middy/bassy.

Stratavarious · September 2023

I find NOS Mesa valves are the best… Chinese Shuguang I think they are. I bought a good supply of them. Bombproof and very clear sound.

I have had several JJs fail which has put me off them and old 60’s longplate Mullards get microphonic in anything high gain but they do sound very nice and airy/open on anything else.

Alex2678 · September 2023

Modulus_Amps said:

I did a test a number of years ago, swapping out all three valves in a JCM800 2204 clone, not only did I swap out the valves I also rotated them to try and see which valve in the set was noisiest.

They do sound different, some are darker and some are brighter, the brighter ones tended to have slightly lower gain.

From Memory:
JJ were the darkest and lowest noise at the time, good for V1 positions, but you might want to avoid in a dark middy amp.
Chinese 12AX7B and 12ax7A were high gain but have good clarity, but you could go through several before finding one that didn't hum or pop etc
Was either Sovtek or EH that were the brightest and lowest gain, The worst valve in the whole lot was one Sovtek that was microphonic in V1, it was fine in other positions.

Saying all that the number one decision for me when putting in valves is acceptable noise levels.

@Modulus_Amps have you found that the difference in noise levels can be pretty drastic? I’ve known hissy and less hissy valves but never had the opportunity to swap a load around and compare, usually just buy one to replace another

Modulus_Amps · September 2023

@Alex2678 When I did the test I was expecting more variation than I actually got on the basis that some valves in V1 would be noisier. V1 is normally the valve most susceptible to noise issues.

I never published what I did as I think it is a test worth re-doing with different amp settings.

De_Batz · September 2023

I've had those EHX 12AY7s in a couple of things, and to be honest I thought they sounded good but had much higher gain than I was expecting. I wouldn't chase around looking for others expecting clouds to lift and amps to go from meh to amazing.

Having said all of that:
There is a bit of a difference to be generated by valve selection, and it can be worthwhile if you have an amp where the controls don't seem to go far enough. For example, I have the (much-derided-by-ICBM) Cornford Harlequin, and with standard JJ or EH 12AX7s / ECC83s, everything was very middle-y and congested. I found a couple of Brimar 12AT7s (yes, not ECC81s) that I had bought for something else and ended up not using as they didn't have enough gain, and with those in both V1 and V2 of the Harlequin, everything is much clearer and more balanced. I wasn't using the last third of the gain control with the ECC83s, and treble was always at max. Now I'm around 3/4 on the gain and treble can be just above halfway.

Agree in general that noise is probably the most noticeable operating characteristic of valves. I like the old EHX ones (yellow print from early 2000s), and I've always had a thing for old Mullard or Brimar valves. I've had some success with things like JAN Phillips too, where I want less gain.

For me (and I appreciate this is a personal experience), JJs are the bog standard baseline, and I'm always looking at minor but real improvements from there. I like bright and present, though, so YMMV...

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