Birmingham City Council gone bust (failed ERP implementation)

CHRISB50 · September 2023

Axe_meister said:

CHRISB50 said:

I’m an SAP consultant.

I’ve seen projects drag (particularly implementations), and costs increase, but never anything like this. 19m to 100m is totally mad.

I remember the BBC canned an SAP implementation as it was taking too long and cost too much.

Someone had their head in the sand.

Me too.
I actually put the original SAP system in at Birmingham back in the 90s and they were a good reference customer as it was a successful implementation.
I wonder why the changed?

Sure, I thought I could remember you mentioning in the past you worked with SAP. What type of role?

I've been a functional SD consultant for almost 25 years now.

I've not really known anyone to move from SAP to Oracle.

Once the investment (time and money) is made to implement SAP, it seems a strange choice to move to another platform.

musteatbrain · September 2023

CHRISB50 said:

Axe_meister said:

CHRISB50 said:

I’m an SAP consultant.

I’ve seen projects drag (particularly implementations), and costs increase, but never anything like this. 19m to 100m is totally mad.

I remember the BBC canned an SAP implementation as it was taking too long and cost too much.

Someone had their head in the sand.

Me too.
I actually put the original SAP system in at Birmingham back in the 90s and they were a good reference customer as it was a successful implementation.
I wonder why the changed?

Sure, I thought I could remember you mentioning in the past you worked with SAP. What type of role?

I've been a functional SD consultant for almost 25 years now.

I've not really known anyone to move from SAP to Oracle.

Once the investment (time and money) is made to implement SAP, it seems a strange choice to move to another platform.

There’s quite a few. If they are using an old on premise version of SAP that is soon to be unsupported and need to move to a cloud based solution.

If SAP don’t have an appetite to be in the business sector they operate in then upgrading to cloud with them becomes pretty much impossible and there’s not a massive array of alternative enterprise level options

Haych · September 2023

We're neck deep in an ERP migration with one of the businesses we've acquired. We're doing most of the donkey work ourselves and the last migration we did went relatively smoothly, although I'm sure the people in the acquired business might disagree.

I know of one well known ERP vendor, who I shall not name, who is notorious for spiralling costs and missed deadlines because every change or deviation has to go through a consulting company and a new project plan for the change/deviation has to be created and approved.

And then when the system is finally installed a similar process exists if you want access to any of your own data outside of the system.

We point blank will not deal with them!

Whitecat · September 2023

Sporky said:

theatreanchor said:

Woking too. What a mess.

Woking was weird. It looks like the previous councillors spaffed several billion on a vanity project and then all quit.

Yeah, not the same circumstances as Brum but still not good... Guildford is also on the cusp of failure, apparently.

I think this might be a pretty common occurrence over the next couple of years. They aren't gonna get any bigger than Birmingham though!

thecolourbox · September 2023

mudslide73 said:

As a BCC employee, obviously, I'm a bit concerned. A lot of bungled stuff hasn't been mentioned - single status (many lucrative outcomes rather than rationalisation), binmen generally (unbelievable overtime, bonuses then strikes), and the odd mechanical bull spring to mind.

Hope things don't go south for you mate. As with many things it's nearly always the people "doing the do" who suffer the mistakes of the idiots above. Like a leaking toilet in the flat above.

I'd forgotten about the binmen issues - they are an interesting one given the problems caused by them not being there are more visible than if, say, some of the support services are removed. I remember the rubbish piling up in the streets the last time. But if support for the disabled, mental health, kids etc gets reduced as a result we'll probably only see the effect of that in five years time when there's an inquiry into why so many people died and after those responsible for cutting it have left or been paid off

CHRISB50 · September 2023

musteatbrain said:

CHRISB50 said:

Axe_meister said:

CHRISB50 said:

I’m an SAP consultant.

I’ve seen projects drag (particularly implementations), and costs increase, but never anything like this. 19m to 100m is totally mad.

I remember the BBC canned an SAP implementation as it was taking too long and cost too much.

Someone had their head in the sand.

Me too.
I actually put the original SAP system in at Birmingham back in the 90s and they were a good reference customer as it was a successful implementation.
I wonder why the changed?

Sure, I thought I could remember you mentioning in the past you worked with SAP. What type of role?

I've been a functional SD consultant for almost 25 years now.

I've not really known anyone to move from SAP to Oracle.

Once the investment (time and money) is made to implement SAP, it seems a strange choice to move to another platform.

There’s quite a few. If they are using an old on premise version of SAP that is soon to be unsupported and need to move to a cloud based solution.

If SAP don’t have an appetite to be in the business sector they operate in then upgrading to cloud with them becomes pretty much impossible and there’s not a massive array of alternative enterprise level options

I thought that was what HANA was for, but architecture is not my area of expertise.

digitalscream · September 2023

Back when I worked for a small company that won a lot of contracts in the heady days of Blair's IT focus, it occurred to me that every government body would've been well-served by having their own IT department with at least one team of developers and one ops team on staff, with the associated supporting staff in terms of BAs and IT-focused project managers. Quite aside from saving a shitload of money (they were all paying contractors three or four times that rate to do the same jobs on a temp basis, with a lot of churn), they would've actually been invested in not allowing the "business" to make insane decisions based on obviously inadequate requirements, and they'd have had the requisite experience to spot the holes in those requirements that Oracle et al regularly exploit.

Quite why they resist doing this is entirely beyond me.

guitars4you · September 2023

Doesn't help within the bigger picture but Brum CC sold the NEC for just over 300 million, to an investment arm of Lloyds Bank - 3 years later they sold it for just over 800 million - Was producing around £150/160 million a year on sales revenue (and that was probably only the car park based on my last visit !!!!! )

Axe_meister · September 2023

CHRISB50 said:

musteatbrain said:

CHRISB50 said:

Axe_meister said:

CHRISB50 said:

I’m an SAP consultant.

I’ve seen projects drag (particularly implementations), and costs increase, but never anything like this. 19m to 100m is totally mad.

I remember the BBC canned an SAP implementation as it was taking too long and cost too much.

Someone had their head in the sand.

Me too.
I actually put the original SAP system in at Birmingham back in the 90s and they were a good reference customer as it was a successful implementation.
I wonder why the changed?

Sure, I thought I could remember you mentioning in the past you worked with SAP. What type of role?

I've been a functional SD consultant for almost 25 years now.

I've not really known anyone to move from SAP to Oracle.

Once the investment (time and money) is made to implement SAP, it seems a strange choice to move to another platform.

There’s quite a few. If they are using an old on premise version of SAP that is soon to be unsupported and need to move to a cloud based solution.

If SAP don’t have an appetite to be in the business sector they operate in then upgrading to cloud with them becomes pretty much impossible and there’s not a massive array of alternative enterprise level options

I thought that was what HANA was for, but architecture is not my area of expertise.

It's call SAP RISE. There are two additions PCE, where your system is in the cloud (but will have to upgrade to the latest addition by 2027), or the Public SaaS addition.

PS have been doing SAP Basis and architecture for 28 years, however now I'm technical pre-sales, selling infrastructure and analytics for SAP systems on Google Cloud.

mo6020 · September 2023

Reformed software vendor pre-sales here. I bet the Oracle guys are laughing all the way to the bank here, and saw it coming way before the council did.

Axe_meister · September 2023

I hate Oracle and their business practices with a passion.

mo6020 · September 2023

Axe_meister said:

I hate Oracle and their business practices with a passion.

Don't we all?

thecolourbox · September 2023

guitars4you said:

Doesn't help within the bigger picture but Brum CC sold the NEC for just over 300 million, to an investment arm of Lloyds Bank - 3 years later they sold it for just over 800 million - Was producing around £150/160 million a year on sales revenue (and that was probably only the car park based on my last visit !!!!! )

Yes that was one of the cock up scenarios I was alluding to. Whoever agreed the original deal on their behalf must have been very lucky not to get done for negligence or something. I work in property and when I was a surveyor I felt like I was constantly under thread of such action against me, for stuff as innocuous as forgetting to send the landscapers out or sending somebody to repair the same pot hole twice, but nothing like underselling a marquee asset by £500m!

thermionic · September 2023

I love these threads. SAP implementations, BA, SA, ops teams, ERP provider, Oracle…

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT MEANS.

PhilW1 · September 2023

thermionic said:

I love these threads. SAP implementations, BA, SA, ops teams, ERP provider, Oracle…

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT MEANS.

Nor does BCC

Haych · September 2023

thermionic said:

I love these threads. SAP implementations, BA, SA, ops teams, ERP provider, Oracle…

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT MEANS.

Your life will be a whole lot less complex if you keep things that way

monquixote · September 2023

thermionic said:

I love these threads. SAP implementations, BA, SA, ops teams, ERP provider, Oracle…

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT MEANS.

Have you considered a job in local government?

It appears you are qualified for the role.

TimmyO · September 2023

Teetonetal said:

TimmyO said:

I read that the Oracle project was approved based on the fact that procedures were to be changed so as to fit a pretty OOTB oracle implementation.

but they then left the processes the same
and started having the solution customised to fit. Cue money pit.

Because getting anyone to change anything is the hardest part of any transformation project.

I contend that overspending by 10x and not finishing is a harder place to end up

guitars4you · September 2023

thecolourbox said:

guitars4you said:

Doesn't help within the bigger picture but Brum CC sold the NEC for just over 300 million, to an investment arm of Lloyds Bank - 3 years later they sold it for just over 800 million - Was producing around £150/160 million a year on sales revenue (and that was probably only the car park based on my last visit !!!!! )

Yes that was one of the cock up scenarios I was alluding to. Whoever agreed the original deal on their behalf must have been very lucky not to get done for negligence or something. I work in property and when I was a surveyor I felt like I was constantly under thread of such action against me, for stuff as innocuous as forgetting to send the landscapers out or sending somebody to repair the same pot hole twice, but nothing like underselling a marquee asset by £500m!

It happens at a level above local council - It wasn't that long ago one of our beloved leaders sold a serious amount of gold below market price

I have a fundamental issue that in the main councils and governments are not commercial, or pro active in creating revenue - They take from individuals and businesses via tax and spend accordingly - But create additional revenue very rarely - Of course it is easy to say that is the job of private business etc etc but be it council houses, council property, ventures like the NEC or whatever, they just sell rather than expand and develop

I dare say if you look at the NEC alone, if it was still owned by the council - They'd probably milk the revenue and spend little on repairs/promotion etc, so sooner or later it would become a poor example of what it could be/is/was - Just the way council's tend to be -

TTony · September 2023

digitalscream said:

Quite why they resist doing this is entirely beyond me.

@digitalscream

I believe that if an organisation uses its own staff on projects like that, then the costs (salaries) of those staff are treated as operational costs to the business.

However, if an organisation uses external contractor/consultant staff, then those costs can be capitalised and included in the cost of the new system and reported as an investment.

And we all know that costs are bad, and investments are good, right?

digitalscream · September 2023

TTony said:

digitalscream said:

Quite why they resist doing this is entirely beyond me.

@digitalscream

I believe that if an organisation uses its own staff on projects like that, then the costs (salaries) of those staff are treated as operational costs to the business.

However, if an organisation uses external contractor/consultant staff, then those costs can be capitalised and included in the cost of the new system and reported as an investment.

And we all know that costs are bad, and investments are good, right?

That would definitely make sense, and it's the kind of creative accounting approach that...well, often results in bankruptcy. As opposed to actual accounting, of course, which is far simpler and involves just counting the money.

Whodathunkit?

ewal · September 2023

mo6020 said:

Axe_meister said:

I hate Oracle and their business practices with a passion.

Don't we all?

Very few IT vendors get pass marks in my experience, and typically the ones that do end up getting bought over to the detriment of the service and products they provide.

thecolourbox · September 2023

guitars4you said:

thecolourbox said:

guitars4you said:

Doesn't help within the bigger picture but Brum CC sold the NEC for just over 300 million, to an investment arm of Lloyds Bank - 3 years later they sold it for just over 800 million - Was producing around £150/160 million a year on sales revenue (and that was probably only the car park based on my last visit !!!!! )

Yes that was one of the cock up scenarios I was alluding to. Whoever agreed the original deal on their behalf must have been very lucky not to get done for negligence or something. I work in property and when I was a surveyor I felt like I was constantly under thread of such action against me, for stuff as innocuous as forgetting to send the landscapers out or sending somebody to repair the same pot hole twice, but nothing like underselling a marquee asset by £500m!

It happens at a level above local council - It wasn't that long ago one of our beloved leaders sold a serious amount of gold below market price

Yes, we live very much in a kakistocracy a lot of the time.

mo6020 · September 2023

ewal said:

mo6020 said:

Axe_meister said:

I hate Oracle and their business practices with a passion.

Don't we all?

Very few IT vendors get pass marks in my experience, and typically the ones that do end up getting bought over to the detriment of the service and products they provide.

I don't disagree, but Oracle are really the worst...

guitartango · September 2023

IT Vendors remind me of builders, they give you a estimate then change the price on completion

Adey · September 2023

monquixote said:

stickyfiddle said:

I feel like I've heard far more stories of utterly bungled Oracle/SAP/etc implementations costing obscene amounts than I have successful ones. I realise there's obviously a massive selection bias there but still. Shouldn't this stuff be relatively well-understood at this point?

And who is signing contracts that commit to spending multi-millions without a clear plan for delivery (and importantly.. evidence of delivery)??

What you have to understand is that this is by design.

As a certain type of supplier you sign off a project for a nice low number knowing the client hasn't understood the complexity and they will find themselves in 12 months with a system that exactly meets the terms of the contract but doesn't do anything useful. At this point they are several million pounds in the hole and have no choice but to continue because you have total vendor lock-in.
On the vendors side you have technical sales and legal teams who are on £300k+ / year and do this kind of trick for breakfast lunch and dinner and on the other side a bloke from the council.

This seems to be exactly what many on here are advocating though for national government - pay as little as possible for an MP. He or she will then be next to useless, otherwise, if they were any good they would be earing £300k p.a. Peanuts and monkeys unfortunately. Bit if you pay someone lots of money, what you also want are high moral standards, which are becoming rarer in the modern world.

mo6020 · September 2023

Adey said:

monquixote said:

stickyfiddle said:

I feel like I've heard far more stories of utterly bungled Oracle/SAP/etc implementations costing obscene amounts than I have successful ones. I realise there's obviously a massive selection bias there but still. Shouldn't this stuff be relatively well-understood at this point?

And who is signing contracts that commit to spending multi-millions without a clear plan for delivery (and importantly.. evidence of delivery)??

What you have to understand is that this is by design.

As a certain type of supplier you sign off a project for a nice low number knowing the client hasn't understood the complexity and they will find themselves in 12 months with a system that exactly meets the terms of the contract but doesn't do anything useful. At this point they are several million pounds in the hole and have no choice but to continue because you have total vendor lock-in.
On the vendors side you have technical sales and legal teams who are on £300k+ / year and do this kind of trick for breakfast lunch and dinner and on the other side a bloke from the council.

This seems to be exactly what many on here are advocating though for national government - pay as little as possible for an MP. He or she will then be next to useless, otherwise, if they were any good they would be earing £300k p.a. Peanuts and monkeys unfortunately. Bit if you pay someone lots of money, what you also want are high moral standards, which are becoming rarer in the modern world.

Finding vendor sales people (and sales adjacent people like SEs) with integrity is like finding a needle in a haystack, and I say that as someone who's worked in vendor sales engineering for a large part of my career.

Sporky · September 2023

You can't expect integrity of a salesperson if the pay structure doesn't reward it.

DuploLicks · September 2023

I know of two councils moving to Fusion. One is a couple of years in and “it’s not going too well”, the other has just started, is full of optimism and it’s very cute.

One thing that’s struck me is the seeming lack of spend control. Not only are they spending a fortune on the solution but their staff levels are also ballooning. It’s like an all you can eat buffet and no needs to pick up the bill (they think)

vasselmeyer · September 2023

Axe_meister said:

I hate Oracle and their business practices with a passion.

Oracle don't have customers, they have hostages.

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Birmingham City Council gone bust (failed ERP implementation)

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