Birmingham City Council gone bust (failed ERP implementation)

viz · September 2023

Fascinating story about Birmingham CC's failed Oracle Cloud ERP system; I'm sure there are plenty of folks on here with experience of ERP implementations. I wonder what's going to happen now - we still need a city council.

monquixote · September 2023

This is what happens when non technical folks get tied in knots by enterprise IT folks.

viz · September 2023

Should BCC have their own in-house permanent digital / enterprise team? I understand Evosys / Mastek are the SI.

theatreanchor · September 2023

Woking too. What a mess.

monquixote · September 2023

I'm sure it would help.

It's not my area of expertise but

I find the whole idea of these single vendor IT transformation mega projects weird and set up for massive cost overruns / failure.

Sporky · September 2023

theatreanchor said:

Woking too. What a mess.

Woking was weird. It looks like the previous councillors spaffed several billion on a vanity project and then all quit.

stickyfiddle · September 2023

I feel like I've heard far more stories of utterly bungled Oracle/SAP/etc implementations costing obscene amounts than I have successful ones. I realise there's obviously a massive selection bias there but still. Shouldn't this stuff be relatively well-understood at this point?

And who is signing contracts that commit to spending multi-millions without a clear plan for delivery (and importantly.. evidence of delivery)??

exocet · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

I feel like I've heard far more stories of utterly bungled Oracle/SAP/etc implementations costing obscene amounts than I have successful ones. I realise there's obviously a massive selection bias there but still. Shouldn't this stuff be relatively well-understood at this point?

And who is signing contracts that commit to spending multi-millions without a clear plan for delivery (and importantly.. evidence of delivery)??

The overruns are certainly not unique to Public Sector, I’ve worked in Private sector for 25 years, current company has been spaffing millions with Oracle for years and yet the system can never deliver what is required…always one more upgrade required….

theatreanchor · September 2023

Sporky said:

theatreanchor said:

Woking too. What a mess.

Woking was weird. It looks like the previous councillors spaffed several billion on a vanity project and then all quit.

Arrr. And the Tory Council were recently ousted by the Lib Dems. So much fun.

ewal · September 2023

viz said:

Should BCC have their own in-house permanent digital / enterprise team? I understand Evosys / Mastek are the SI.

I'd be 99% sure they do have and they'll be the ones getting the blame, even though it's likely decision will have been made by business leaders.

Business leaders have raised the ERP subject at the council I work at, normally because someone like an Oracle sales executive has told them they should.

We tell them to go away because 1. Council management culture is 'inappropriate', 2. Need to fully understand the cost of change.

Up until now they've listened to us

CHRISB50 · September 2023

I’m an SAP consultant.

I’ve seen projects drag (particularly implementations), and costs increase, but never anything like this. 19m to 100m is totally mad.

I remember the BBC canned an SAP implementation as it was taking too long and cost too much.

Someone had their head in the sand.

monquixote · September 2023

stickyfiddle said:

I feel like I've heard far more stories of utterly bungled Oracle/SAP/etc implementations costing obscene amounts than I have successful ones. I realise there's obviously a massive selection bias there but still. Shouldn't this stuff be relatively well-understood at this point?

And who is signing contracts that commit to spending multi-millions without a clear plan for delivery (and importantly.. evidence of delivery)??

What you have to understand is that this is by design.

As a certain type of supplier you sign off a project for a nice low number knowing the client hasn't understood the complexity and they will find themselves in 12 months with a system that exactly meets the terms of the contract but doesn't do anything useful. At this point they are several million pounds in the hole and have no choice but to continue because you have total vendor lock-in.

On the vendors side you have technical sales and legal teams who are on £300k+ / year and do this kind of trick for breakfast lunch and dinner and on the other side a bloke from the council.

Unfortunately because of the way procurement works at big institutions they always want single vendor systems than do everything delivered in one massive lump which is is exactly what every book on software development tells you not to do.

MrSwanson · September 2023

When I was working in local gov finance, within 9 years I saw 3 flawed ERP implementations. For prominent London Boroughs too....

stickyfiddle · September 2023

monquixote said:

stickyfiddle said:

I feel like I've heard far more stories of utterly bungled Oracle/SAP/etc implementations costing obscene amounts than I have successful ones. I realise there's obviously a massive selection bias there but still. Shouldn't this stuff be relatively well-understood at this point?

And who is signing contracts that commit to spending multi-millions without a clear plan for delivery (and importantly.. evidence of delivery)??

What you have to understand is that this is by design.

As a certain type of supplier you sign off a project for a nice low number knowing the client hasn't understood the complexity and they will find themselves in 12 months with a system that exactly meets the terms of the contract but doesn't do anything useful. At this point they are several million pounds in the hole and have no choice but to continue because you have total vendor lock-in.
On the vendors side you have technical sales and legal teams who are on £300k+ / year and do this kind of trick for breakfast lunch and dinner and on the other side a bloke from the council.

Unfortunately because of the way procurement works at big institutions they always want single vendor systems than do everything delivered in one massive lump which is is exactly what every book on software development tells you not to do.

Oh of course - I was a consultant for 9 years! And now I work in infrastructure procurement for (non-UK) government. I understand it far better than I'd like to tbh!

Sunk cost fallacy is a huge thing...

nero1701 · September 2023

It's often down to the specification provided to the ERP provider, once implementing the specification begins, they often realise more is required.

TimmyO · September 2023

I read that the Oracle project was approved based on the fact that procedures were to be changed so as to fit a pretty OOTB oracle implementation.

but they then left the processes the same
and started having the solution customised to fit. Cue money pit.

danishbacon · September 2023

nero1701 said:

It's often down to the specification provided to the ERP provider, once implementing the specification begins, they often realise more is required.

The world needs more BAs. BAs + adequate time allocated for thorough analysis = better requirements. Then you go to tender.

Chalky · September 2023

TimmyO said:

I read that the Oracle project was approved based on the fact that procedures were to be changed so as to fit a pretty OOTB oracle implementation.

but they then left the processes the same
and started having the solution customised to fit. Cue money pit.

The old "we need the system to match how staff do things" instead of change your staff or their mindset.

Sporky · September 2023

danishbacon said:
The world needs more BAs. BAs + adequate time allocated for thorough analysis = better requirements. Then you go to tender.

At which point people like me (but evil), who respond to more tenders a year than most BAs will create in a career, look for any opportunity to cheat and win.

Doing one for a university at the mo; by ignoring the BOQ (created by someone with no significant expertise) and going for the functional spec I can save them 10% with better quality and future proofing. Careful reading of the tender documentation, and careful answering of the questions means my response counts as compliant even though there isn't a single item they specified.

If I was evil I could game the scoring system giving them something useless. Tenders are not a good way to buy anything.

monquixote · September 2023

danishbacon said:

nero1701 said:

It's often down to the specification provided to the ERP provider, once implementing the specification begins, they often realise more is required.

The world needs more BAs. BAs + adequate time allocated for thorough analysis = better requirements. Then you go to tender.

Totally agree.

Sorely undervalued skill. I have a brilliant one on my team and he's worth his weight in gold.

danishbacon · September 2023

Sporky said:

danishbacon said:
The world needs more BAs. BAs + adequate time allocated for thorough analysis = better requirements. Then you go to tender.

At which point people like me (but evil), who respond to more tenders a year than most BAs will create in a career, look for any opportunity to cheat and win.

Doing one for a university at the mo; by ignoring the BOQ (created by someone with no significant expertise) and going for the functional spec I can save them 10% with better quality and future proofing. Careful reading of the tender documentation, and careful answering of the questions means my response counts as compliant even though there isn't a single item they specified.

If I was evil I could game the scoring whole giving them something useless. Tenders are not a good way to buy anything.

I may have oversimplified my statement. The BA is a piece of a wider puzzle and not every BA is created equal, a junior with tool knowledge shouldn’t be speccing up big projects solo. If the puzzle doesn’t have all the right pieces (proper PM, Senior buy-in with appropriate guidance and evidence, resourcing for implementation and a technical reading of the tender responses to identify and sift through the bullshit) then it’s going to fall apart in one way or another. Whether it falls apart big time or not depends on the complexity and dumb leading the blind ratio.

Teetonetal · September 2023

The company I work for is crippled by SAP... way too many custom transactions created by people and even business units long gone.. and then change held back by tenured people who have been here long enough to be stuck in there ways, but not long enough to know why they work that way.

When I joined 5 years ago, cleaning the mess so that we could move on was the big project everyone is preparing for. In 5 years all that has taken place is some can kicking.

Sporky · September 2023

I should clarify that I'm anti-tender, not anti-BA - far better to have the latter than not.

Most people who create tenders aren't good at it. Consultants seem to be particularly bad at it.

musteatbrain · September 2023

Sporky said:

danishbacon said:
The world needs more BAs. BAs + adequate time allocated for thorough analysis = better requirements. Then you go to tender.

At which point people like me (but evil), who respond to more tenders a year than most BAs will create in a career, look for any opportunity to cheat and win.

Doing one for a university at the mo; by ignoring the BOQ (created by someone with no significant expertise) and going for the functional spec I can save them 10% with better quality and future proofing. Careful reading of the tender documentation, and careful answering of the questions means my response counts as compliant even though there isn't a single item they specified.

If I was evil I could game the scoring whole giving them something useless. Tenders are not a good way to buy anything.

Sounds very close to home. We could be working with each other and not know!

Teetonetal · September 2023

TimmyO said:

I read that the Oracle project was approved based on the fact that procedures were to be changed so as to fit a pretty OOTB oracle implementation.

but they then left the processes the same
and started having the solution customised to fit. Cue money pit.

Because getting anyone to change anything is the hardest part of any transformation project.

Sporky · September 2023

musteatbrain said:

Sounds very close to home. We could be working with each other and not know!

Or we might be mortal enemies!

There was a brilliant one for a governmental department maybe 10 years ago. They wanted to buy about a dozen signage screens, with a backend system that blah blah blah.

Unfortunately they wrote it in such a way that they were obligated to award to the cheapest bid that met just two of the requirements. I won that by specifying a single £15 digital photo frame from Argos. Then we did a really good job with the right functionality, at sensible margins we'd never have achieved in a fair fight.

ewal · September 2023

Have to agree. BA, business change and project/programme management skills and capacity is non existent at the council where I work. It's been like this for years through successive 'transformation' attempts. There appears to a total disregard for specialist skills and experience. Our latest chief exec instigated another transformation programme 18 months ago saying we would do it without any dedicated or specialist change resources. Needless to say, fuck all has happened apart from a lot of talk and a change of organisation structure that has done nothing more than break things.

monquixote · September 2023

Tenders make a fundamental assumption that people know what they need to solve their problem.

Usually that's the single biggest challenge they need an expert to help them with.

Axe_meister · September 2023

CHRISB50 said:

I’m an SAP consultant.

I’ve seen projects drag (particularly implementations), and costs increase, but never anything like this. 19m to 100m is totally mad.

I remember the BBC canned an SAP implementation as it was taking too long and cost too much.

Someone had their head in the sand.

Me too.
I actually put the original SAP system in at Birmingham back in the 90s and they were a good reference customer as it was a successful implementation.
I wonder why the changed?

thecolourbox · September 2023

I don't think the council's issues are purely because of the software thing, there's been quite a catalogue of errors over the years including the equal pay thing, selling of things like the NIA and NEC to try and pay for that, but doing it REALLY BADLY so they sold for way less than their value. I think one of them was sold on quite quickly for a lot more than the original sale price, but that went quiet.

It's too big a council I think, and they just aren't very good at a lot of things so they get in massive messes like this. Also being a council run by the opposite party to that in government they probably don't get a lot of support but then, to be fair, they should probably be able to remain solvent without government stepping in

mudslide73 · September 2023

As a BCC employee, obviously, I'm a bit concerned. A lot of bungled stuff hasn't been mentioned - single status (many lucrative outcomes rather than rationalisation), binmen generally (unbelievable overtime, bonuses then strikes), and the odd mechanical bull spring to mind.

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Birmingham City Council gone bust (failed ERP implementation)

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