Guitar Tech - Exclusion List?!

skunkwerx · September 2023

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

Power_Freak · September 2023

I think you'd find most techs do this to some degree - they just don't say it as explicitly. If it's a job they don't want they'll just quote you an eyewatering price as a polite way of saying: "go away"...

Power_Freak · September 2023

skunkwerx said:

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

If it's a "real" fly (i.e. the original top end ones) there are a number of custom parts that are no longer in production (e.g. they don't use regular trem springs, you have to buy a special "spring" to change from 9s to 10s, custom saddles that like to fall out - and if you lose them there's no after market replacements, etc.) before you get into the frets, neck attachment and so on.

The issue with those flys wasn't "bad design" per se - it was trying to cut corners to make a more "affordable" guitar.

DefaultM · September 2023

His costs have probably sky rocketed and he doesnt want to be pissing about when he could make more money on something else.
I had someone refuse to wire up a super switch a few months ago because he reckoned in the time it took to figure it out he could have done a fret level for more money. I was shocked but it's his business.

Paul_C · September 2023

DefaultM said:

His costs have probably sky rocketed and he doesnt want to be pissing about when he could make more money on something else.
I had someone refuse to wire up a super switch a few months ago because he reckoned in the time it took to figure it out he could have done a fret level for more money. I was shocked but it's his business.

The trouble with that approach (IMHO) is that if you find someone else to do it you're likely to go to them for a fret dress if you should need to, so he's not just lost one job but potentially lots, especially if you grumble to other guitar owning friends and they all steer clear of him.

Sporky · September 2023

skunkwerx said:

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

The P-series were built with pretty standard hardware, so I think Power_Freak is right that it's the trem, the frets, and so on for the US Fly and Nitefly guitars.

[edit] though I think the Niteflys at least had normal springs for the trem.

DefaultM · September 2023

Yeah pretty much. I had a go at doing it myself and got 3 of the 5 positions to be what I wanted, and at least the other 2 work. Now I've got the hassle of finding someone else to do it who won't give the guitar back wrecked.

Sporky · September 2023

I actually enjoy working out superswitch combinations.

You may take that as a challenge if you like.

Cols · September 2023

digitalscream said:

Worth considering how many of each he's come across.

For example, the aluminium-necked guitars - it's unlikely there's more than one person in his local area that has one, and that person is likely a collector of them. That particular part of the policy is more likely to be a way of saying, "I refuse to do any work for this particular asshole" without the ensuing personal aggravation.

It’s likely to be a mixture of the two.

The aluminium-neck guitar ban is, as you say, likely to be a specific difficult customer. The Rickenbacker is more of a common brand, so that’s more likely to be “damn all Rickenbackers and their stupid truss rods”, while the Vibrola ban might be “please stop asking me to set it up so that it holds its tuning”

fretmeister · September 2023

gumbothewiddler said:

Don’t like this exclusion approach from a so-called specialist. If working on those guitars is allegedly unprofitable or unnecessarily awkward, why not just say, my standard setup fees are X, but anything on this list is charged at 5 times my usual rate as they’re all fecking pigs but still do the work.

Employment lawyers don't do injury claims work.
Neurosurgeons don't do bowel surgery.

I think it's far more professional to exclude things the person does not like or feel comfortable doing.

gumbothewiddler · September 2023

fretmeister said:

gumbothewiddler said:

Don’t like this exclusion approach from a so-called specialist. If working on those guitars is allegedly unprofitable or unnecessarily awkward, why not just say, my standard setup fees are X, but anything on this list is charged at 5 times my usual rate as they’re all fecking pigs but still do the work.

Employment lawyers don't do injury claims work.
Neurosurgeons don't do bowel surgery.

I think it's far more professional to exclude things the person does not like or feel comfortable doing.

No, but criminal bar (and possibly others I don’t know) operate cab rank rule.

Power_Freak · September 2023

Sporky said:

skunkwerx said:

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

The P-series were built with pretty standard hardware, so I think Power_Freak is right that it's the trem, the frets, and so on for the US Fly and Nitefly guitars.

I believe niteflys are easier to work with - they (at least the ones I've seen) use old fashioned trem springs, proper pickups, and a bolt neck. So you only need to worry about the saddles and frets really - not ideal, but much easier.

Plus with the original fly being entirely composite/carbon fibre - if you really ding up the body/neck you're done for (at least I don't know of any guitar techs that would know how to deal with it, maybe a high end auto-repair shop might) - nitefly has a wooden body and bolt neck so at least it's somewhat salvageable (though still an expensive fix admittedly)

DefaultM · September 2023

Sporky said:

I actually enjoy working out superswitch combinations.

You may take that as a challenge if you like.

My problem is i fried the first strat switch i worked on, and I was told they're delicate and had probably heated it up too much.
So now I'm scared to get it wrong and keep reheating the terminals.

Roland · September 2023

Sporky said:

skunkwerx said:

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

The P-series were built with pretty standard hardware, so I think Power_Freak is right that it's the trem, the frets, and so on for the US Fly and Nitefly guitars.

[edit] though I think the Niteflys at least had normal springs for the trem.

It's also the wiring. In the original Flys the electrical components sit on a flexible plastic sheet with metal traces. This means buying non-standard pots, and unsoldering/resoldering onto the traces. The plastic cracks if you're not careful, and the traces can lift if overheated. The only solution is to replace the plastic with traditional hard wiring.

Power_Freak · September 2023

Roland said:

Sporky said:

skunkwerx said:

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

The P-series were built with pretty standard hardware, so I think Power_Freak is right that it's the trem, the frets, and so on for the US Fly and Nitefly guitars.

[edit] though I think the Niteflys at least had normal springs for the trem.

It's also the wiring. In the original Flys the electrical components sit on a flexible plastic sheet with metal traces. This means buying non-standard pots, and unsoldering/resoldering onto the traces. The plastic cracks if you're not careful, and the traces can lift if overheated. The only solution is to replace the plastic with traditional hard wiring.

You need special pickups too - I don't know anybody that builds ones that are suitable. If you spill a beer or whatever on them you're done!

Offset · September 2023

Power_Freak said:

Sporky said:

skunkwerx said:

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

The P-series were built with pretty standard hardware, so I think Power_Freak is right that it's the trem, the frets, and so on for the US Fly and Nitefly guitars.

I believe niteflys are easier to work with - they (at least the ones I've seen) use old fashioned trem springs, proper pickups, and a bolt neck. So you only need to worry about the saddles and frets really - not ideal, but much easier.

Plus with the original fly being entirely composite/carbon fibre - if you really ding up the body/neck you're done for (at least I don't know of any guitar techs that would know how to deal with it, maybe a high end auto-repair shop might) - nitefly has a wooden body and bolt neck so at least it's somewhat salvageable (though still an expensive fix admittedly)

The Nitefly/Southern Nitefly's neck has a carbon/glass 'sheath' encasing it however, and the s/s frets are 'glued' onto the composite fretboard. So it still isn't that straightforward unfortunately.

Power_Freak · September 2023

Offset said:

Power_Freak said:

Sporky said:

skunkwerx said:

What about the Asian parkers that are just regular made guitars I wonder? Is it the neck and glued on frets he is not liking or do they all have some kind of annoying bridge?

The P-series were built with pretty standard hardware, so I think Power_Freak is right that it's the trem, the frets, and so on for the US Fly and Nitefly guitars.

I believe niteflys are easier to work with - they (at least the ones I've seen) use old fashioned trem springs, proper pickups, and a bolt neck. So you only need to worry about the saddles and frets really - not ideal, but much easier.

Plus with the original fly being entirely composite/carbon fibre - if you really ding up the body/neck you're done for (at least I don't know of any guitar techs that would know how to deal with it, maybe a high end auto-repair shop might) - nitefly has a wooden body and bolt neck so at least it's somewhat salvageable (though still an expensive fix admittedly)

The Nitefly/Southern Nitefly's neck has a carbon/glass 'sheath' encasing it however, and the s/s frets are 'glued' onto the composite fretboard. So it still isn't that straightforward unfortunately.

I was more getting at: worst comes to worst you can replace a neck on a nitefly since it's a bolt on - hence it's only really frets (in all honesty not that hard) and saddles (more problematic) that affect the nitefly. Original flys have a whole lot more (as mentioned above)

Sporky · September 2023

The Nitefly neck is (I think) round all the way through the heel, which might make it a bit trickier to make a replacement.

Graphtech do saddles for the Fly trem:

https://graphtech.com/collections/string-saver-saddles-electric/products/ghost-parker-trem-saddle-10-lead

But I get your point.

Philly_Q · September 2023

I don't think there are any Hamer guitars with aluminium necks. I wonder if he means Travis Bean?

Offset · September 2023

Sporky said:

The Nitefly neck is (I think) round all the way through the heel, which might make it a bit trickier to make a replacement.

Spot on.

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/cd32fd5f06260120a92b9309b6e754b102b8ed44f53f3600c3

PhilKing · September 2023

Philly_Q said:

I don't think there are any Hamer guitars with aluminium necks. I wonder if he means Travis Bean?

Perhaps he means Kramer?

ICBM · September 2023

digitalscream said:

For example, the aluminium-necked guitars - it's unlikely there's more than one person in his local area that has one, and that person is likely a collector of them. That particular part of the policy is more likely to be a way of saying, "I refuse to do any work for this particular asshole" without the ensuing personal aggravation.

I certainly used to operate a *customer* exclusion list. The names on it, although few, I would not work for if I was down to my last penny and my kids were starving.

swiller · September 2023

It is an odd thing to advertise. Surely do it at the booking stage? How many of those does he turn down a week and if sizeable numbers and thus must be millions of the usual stuff coming through. Even if i didnt have one of those guitars, id probably look elsewhere. Guitars will always have challenges from play, wear, individual characteristics perspective.

prowla · September 2023

It's not the grumpy drunkard, is it?

I can see why someone not competent would dislike working on Rics:

You have to know how to adjust the truss-rods, especially on the older 4001 models, because if you're ignorant and assume you're on a new Fender then you will pop the fretboard off; however, on the plus-side, they are also field-replaceable, so if one fails you can just slide it out and insert another.
The lacquered fretboards mean doing a refret can mash the finish.
I would've thought that tail-lift would be right up a tech's easy list, as the fix is to put on a new tailpiece.
Neck-lift is a bit more involved to resolve, but it should be a nice earner for someone with half-decent woodworking skills.
Some have issues with intonation, but there are a heck of a lot of Rics out there being played. Again for a tech, there's an opportunity to upsell to a V2 bridge or 3rd party one.
Restringing a 12-string is said to be a chore, but that applies to any 12-er.

So, all-in-all, if a tech says no Rics, then they're just turning away customers.

Incidentally, for those who bemoan the Ric truss-rod adjustment, here's a bloke who seems to have a clue doing adjustment on a late 60s Fender (so there are a lot of Rics older than that!).

Philly_Q · September 2023

PhilKing said:

Philly_Q said:

I don't think there are any Hamer guitars with aluminium necks. I wonder if he means Travis Bean?

Perhaps he means Kramer?

He already has Kramer just above Hamer in his list.

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ICBM · September 2023

WezV said:

I don't agree with him that all are bad designs. Things like Ric's and Parkers certainly have their quirks, which can make them frustrating to work on but it doesn't make them poor instruments

Aside from their pickups - @OilCityPickups has described the crappy way they're made - there aren't too many problems with Ricks... tail lift on the basses and 'R' tailpiece failure (especially on the 12-strings) maybe count as they happen because the chosen casting alloy is too weak. I've fixed the tailpiece on my own bass by fitting a bracket to the body underneath it, but you shouldn't *really* have to do that. The modern truss rods are no more problematic than any other, and the old ones you simply have to know how to adjust safely. Everything else is a bit quirky but perfectly good.

I'm less sure about Parkers - they're good *instruments*, but I'm not sure they're good *designs*, if that makes sense. I haven't actually had to work on many, but some of the problems described further up in this thread are bad design in my opinion - they make things needlessly hard to fix for no benefit in use, apparently purely to be 'different' or 'modern'.

dindude · September 2023

Funny as I was looking for techs in my area just yesterday and this one came up so I know who it is. Can’t vouch for his work, I saw the exclusion list and, whilst I get it, iltbe approach just comes across as grumpy which puts me off a bit.

CavemanGrogg · September 2023

I can understand why a guitar tech would do this, especially with Rics, Parker Fly - all of them not just the first gen USA made and higher end Asian ones, and Ovation or anything with an aluminium neck, though I don't know if I would do what this tech has done with being so direct about it, though I do see advantages to it, I don't know who this tech is, so lets assume he's a pretty decent one, how would you feel if you traveled all the way to this tech lugging a guitar or two with you on the recommendation of a mate or this place, only to then find out that the tech won't have anything to do with the guitars you've just lugged all the way there.

And there are more reason's than the tech's level of skill that will determine whether or not they take on a job, Rics for example are notorious for being extremely hard to get parts for, some jobs are just not worth taking on - you might think the guitar is worth repairing and are willing to pay the costs that doesn't mean to think the tech does or wants to put the work into the guitar.

stevebrum · September 2023

dindude said:

Funny as I was looking for techs in my area just yesterday and this one came up so I know who it is. Can’t vouch for his work, I saw the exclusion list and, whilst I get it, iltbe approach just comes across as grumpy which puts me off a bit.

If you find someone you’re happy with. Would you please let me know who! That’s exactly how I found this guy - just looking around at localish places in the WM.

OilCityPickups · September 2023

stevebrum said:

dindude said:

Funny as I was looking for techs in my area just yesterday and this one came up so I know who it is. Can’t vouch for his work, I saw the exclusion list and, whilst I get it, iltbe approach just comes across as grumpy which puts me off a bit.

If you find someone you’re happy with. Would you please let me know who! That’s exactly how I found this guy - just looking around at localish places in the WM.

In business we have a thing called 'managing customer expectations' which is essentially telling folks what they can or can't expect of our services. You have to do this at some point before taking on a repair or a custom job, as generally the guitarist public thinks of us as half Guru and half miracle worker :-)
We have to point out that delivering the moon on a stick yesterday - isn't at your paygrade! Personally I like to gently point this out to the customer via an e mail or better still a phone call, but businesses differ, and I don't think it's grumpy, just very 'up front'. Many people hate saying 'no' in person, so pre-empt it with exclusions - different strokes ...

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Guitar Tech - Exclusion List?!

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