Guitar Tech - Exclusion List?!

stevebrum · September 2023

Just spotted this on a guitar tech/repairers website.

It must be nice to be able to turn work down…

I almost get the aluminium neck thing but Rics & maestro terms?

Never heard of this - I’d have thought most places would do the work but maybe with come caveat around tuning stability.

Image: https://i.ibb.co/DrYS4JC/02-EDF792-117-A-4-B48-9-B15-A85727-E7-E6-DF.jpg

WezV · September 2023

If he can't do the work to a standard he is happy with then he is right to turn it away

soma1975 · September 2023

If everyone refused to work on Rics hopefully they'd finally sod off.

Can they refuse to work on any guitar with bird inlays or gold hardware too due to design issues?

english_bob · September 2023

It's not going to lose him a ton of business, is it? How many Rickenbackers, Parker Flys or aluminium neck guitars are out there?

It's not as if he's refusing to work on Fender Stratocasters.

And like @WezV says, if yer man doesn't think he can give you a setup or service that he's happy with (or he can, but only by spending longer on it than is consistent with running a profitable business), it's much safer just to turn down the work than to accept it with caveats and then run the risk of still disappointing his customers.

"I'm not happy with the setup you did"

"I did warn you that it might not be very good"

"Yeah, but I thought it would be less not very good"

stevebrum · September 2023

I’m not questioning his right to have the exclusion list - just that I’ve never seen or heard of one before. It seemed unusual perhaps it’s not.

HAL9000 · September 2023

When I saw the thread title I was expecting a list of techs who you wouldn’t let anywhere near your prized possessions

WezV · September 2023

stevebrum said:

I’m not questioning his right to have the exclusion list - just that I’ve never seen or heard of one before. It seemed unusual perhaps it’s not.

It is unusual. Far more normal to have someone take on the work anyway and do it badly

drofluf · September 2023

As the good techs often have a waiting list I doubt this will lose him business.

Wazmeister · September 2023

If you have ever restrung a Ricky 12, you may have some sympathy...

guitars4you · September 2023

Wazmeister said:

If you have ever restrung a Ricky 12, you may have some sympathy...

You could have had a lol or wiz for that - I'd probably put a 12 string Ricky ahead of a nylon strung classical guitar for my hate list to re-string - Tuning them is equally a pain as just takes so much longer

gumbothewiddler · September 2023

Don’t like this exclusion approach from a so-called specialist. If working on those guitars is allegedly unprofitable or unnecessarily awkward, why not just say, my standard setup fees are X, but anything on this list is charged at 5 times my usual rate as they’re all fecking pigs but still do the work.

guitars4you · September 2023

It is not the first time I've heard of guitar techs not wanting to work on Parker Guitars - Especially fret/fingerboard/neck work - And some don't like working on stainless steel frets when it comes to fret dress work as it 'knackers up' appropriate files, which aren't cheap to buy/replace

ICBM · September 2023

When I was doing repairs I don’t think I ever had an exclusion list for guitars… but I definitely did for amps, and some pedals. With the amps it was mostly that they were too poorly designed and unreliable to be guaranteeable after repair, and I don’t like doing work again for nothing or the reputational harm of having it re-fail. With pedals it was mostly things that I knew in advance would be something I couldn’t repair, so it wasn’t worth the assessment time (which I always did free) knowing that the end result would be the same.

I would prefer to turn down the work flat in advance rather than ask for an excessive rate and end up with the customer still asking me to do it - which did happen once when I tried that, and I decided not to again. It wasn’t worth it.

I actively like working on Rickenbackers, they’re nicely made and easy to work on. I can understand the problem with the aluminium-neck Applauses - when the frets wear they’re basically unrepairable - but no problem if it’s not fretwork. I’m not a fan of electro-acoustics with onboard preamp faults.

Tannin · September 2023

I had a computer shop for some decades. I refused to work on Apples. Apart from the fact that they are shit computers, overpriced to buggery and very often non-repairable anyway (I mean what other bastard company would solder in hard drives?), Apple owners tend to be difficult to work with. Further they accounted for a very small section of the market and it made no sense at all to devote good time and money to Apple-specific staff training (necessary if you are going to work on them) when the staff are seldom going to use that knowledge anyway. Better and easier all-round just to gracefully decline the work.

People sometimes used to sook about it. "But there is no-where else in town to take it!" If the work was worth having, someone would jump in and specialise in it. In fact, someone did in about 2002: this new competitor did PCs too but they set up to do Apples. In about 2005 they went broke.

In fairness, I don't think that was because they did Apples. They were just very badly run. One example: a young technician talked his or her way into a trial period with us as the (part time) 7th tech. Not nearly good enough to be our 7th best, we let him/her go. A bit later on I heard that one of our competitors had put him/her on as the 4th of 4. That lasted about three weeks. A few months later I was flabbergasted to hear that he/she had been put on by said Apple dealer as ... wait for it ... as the Head Technician!

It didn't end well.

GoldenEraGuitars · September 2023

I don’t have an “exclusion list” as such, but I do regularly turn away a fair bit of working including refinishing especially anything involving a Japanese fender or Chinese epiphone. Not because I can’t do the work, it’s because I can make more money doing other things.

I wouldn’t print out or show off said list though, just defer or turn down work on a case by case basis. It looks less abrasive or confrontational from the customers POV.

Offset · September 2023

Tannin said:

I had a computer shop for some decades. I refused to work on Apples. Apart from the fact that they are shit computers, overpriced to buggery and very often non-repairable anyway (I mean what other bastard company would solder in hard drives?)...

I used to think I was the only person in the world who HATES Apple laptops. We spent a shit-load on a Macbook some years back and I loathed it after around a week of use. Horrible OS, non-intuitive UI. It finally ground to a halt, refused to accept an OS upgrade or boot up. Never again. I'm not anti-Apple per se (I'm on my umpteenth iPhone) but how some people manage to use Apple laptops for work is beyond me. It's now an irreparable lump of pretty aluminium.

stevebrum · September 2023

english_bob said:

It's not going to lose him a ton of business, is it? How many Rickenbackers, Parker Flys or aluminium neck guitars are out there?

It's not as if he's refusing to work on Fender Stratocasters.

And like @WezV says, if yer man doesn't think he can give you a setup or service that he's happy with (or he can, but only by spending longer on it than is consistent with running a profitable business), it's much safer just to turn down the work than to accept it with caveats and then run the risk of still disappointing his customers.

Good points - snipped the quote but you make the argument well.

Like I said above I was more surprised to see it.

Only the owner knows whether they can afford to turn away potential business, and the what impact it’ll have if any.

I completely accept and respect anyone’s decision to only do the work they want to do or is profitable for them.

As for losing a ton of business - no I agree it won’t be as those excluded guitars aren’t that common.

However say I’ve got half a dozen or so guitars that I like set up regularly - one is a Ric and one has got a vibrola (true story) I won’t be taking any of mine to him as ideally I want to build a relationship with one tech and go to one place/shop.

So by not working on some particular models he’s losing all my potential business.

Danny1969 · September 2023

Tannin said:

I had a computer shop for some decades. I refused to work on Apples. Apart from the fact that they are shit computers, overpriced to buggery and very often non-repairable anyway (I mean what other bastard company would solder in hard drives?), Apple owners tend to be difficult to work with. Further they accounted for a very small section of the market and it made no sense at all to devote good time and money to Apple-specific staff training (necessary if you are going to work on them) when the staff are seldom going to use that knowledge anyway. Better and easier all-round just to gracefully decline the work.

People sometimes used to sook about it. "But there is no-where else in town to take it!" If the work was worth having, someone would jump in and specialise in it. In fact, someone did in about 2002: this new competitor did PCs too but they set up to do Apples. In about 2005 they went broke.

In fairness, I don't think that was because they did Apples. They were just very badly run. One example: a young technician talked his or her way into a trial period with us as the (part time) 7th tech. Not nearly good enough to be our 7th best, we let him/her go. A bit later on I heard that one of our competitors had put him/her on as the 4th of 4. That lasted about three weeks. A few months later I was flabbergasted to hear that he/she had been put on by said Apple dealer as ... wait for it ... as the Head Technician!

It didn't end well.

The local shops where I am don't repair Apple, they will book the repair in but if it's any kind of hardware fault then it comes to my workshop, gets repaired and then goes back to the shop. This is because in PC repair engineers generally repair the machine on a part swap out basis. If the motherboard is faulty then change the whole board etc. Even with laptops it's not difficult to swap the whole board if the correct board is available, if you replace it with the correct part number then everything will line up connector wise / port wise and the OS will be happy and won't blue screen.

With Apple the parts are more expensive so you have to get involved with board level repair and here I would argue Apples are inherently more repairing than PC's simply because the required documentation is available. Take something like an iMac or a Macbook Pro .... not only can I view the schematic and see which chips have to be enabled to create the rail for the GPU or serial bus etc but I can also use the boardview software to see exactly where those components are. At this level of SM layout 99% of the components are so small that marking then is impossible and without the board view software you would be f#cked

The very small amount of different machine they make helps enormously too. If you ignore screen size options then there's only been around 9 models of laptop and 4 models of iMac over the last 15 years. Compare that will Acer / HP etc who have had over 30 odd models in the same time period.

On the whole I think in the repair game you have to pick your battles. There's loads of things I won't do anymore like game consoles, gaming PC's, MS Surfaces ... Too much hassle and too prone to going wrong again.

With amps repairs are generally on the favour side. You can't really charge for the aggravation they are compared to the more lucrative stuff like fixing Apple / Hobart / bits of car PCB's . These are small things that fit on a small bench and don't take up any room and are easy to soak test.

SteveRobinson · September 2023

I have a "no Hofner, no Framus" policy. They're usually more trouble than they're worth. The owners that is.

Tannin · September 2023

Not to derail the thread, but with a proper PC, you can swap out any part for less than it costs in labour to plug a soldering iron in and warm it up.

WezV · September 2023

gumbothewiddler said:

Don’t like this exclusion approach from a so-called specialist. If working on those guitars is allegedly unprofitable or unnecessarily awkward, why not just say, my standard setup fees are X, but anything on this list is charged at 5 times my usual rate as they’re all fecking pigs but still do the work.

Does the fact they will work on 99.9% of instruments, but exclude the final 0.1%, stop them being a specialist?

Some of these exclusions are stuff most techs will never see. Very few tech's will be specialized in all obscure instrument types.

....

I don't agree with him that all are bad designs. Things like Ric's and Parkers certainly have their quirks, which can make them frustrating to work on but it doesn't make them poor instruments

Musicman20 · September 2023

Sounds like they had issues in the past and just made a very specific list (e.g. unhappy customers after the work).

GoldenEraGuitars · September 2023

gumbothewiddler said:

Don’t like this exclusion approach from a so-called specialist. If working on those guitars is allegedly unprofitable or unnecessarily awkward, why not just say, my standard setup fees are X, but anything on this list is charged at 5 times my usual rate as they’re all fecking pigs but still do the work.

Well, assuming most techs are self employed? The beauty of self employment is setting your own parameters. It doesn’t make you less of a specialist because you don’t want to work on certain items.

Happiness and job satisfaction means a great deal to me and I quite simply won’t do any work that I don’t want to do/makes me miserable just thinking about/needlessly difficult or awkward.

guitars4you · September 2023

ICBM said:

When I was doing repairs I don’t think I ever had an exclusion list for guitars… but I definitely did for amps, and some pedals. With the amps it was mostly that they were too poorly designed and unreliable to be guaranteeable after repair, and I don’t like doing work again for nothing or the reputational harm of having it re-fail. With pedals it was mostly things that I knew in advance would be something I couldn’t repair, so it wasn’t worth the assessment time (which I always did free) knowing that the end result would be the same.

I would prefer to turn down the work flat in advance rather than ask for an excessive rate and end up with the customer still asking me to do it - which did happen once when I tried that, and I decided not to again. It wasn’t worth it.

I actively like working on Rickenbackers, they’re nicely made and easy to work on. I can understand the problem with the aluminium-neck Applauses - when the frets wear they’re basically unrepairable - but no problem if it’s not fretwork. I’m not a fan of electro-acoustics with onboard preamp faults.

With you on the sealed units on electro acoustics and indeed many 'active' bass guitars etc - Then if you try to get a replacement you find it Is mk2 or mk3 and has a different mounting clip etc so they become un repairable

Paul_C · September 2023

I've never done refinishes other than a couple for friends and after 20 years I've recently decided to try and keep any involvement with lacquer to an absolute minimum as it nearly always takes me ages and winds me up

Other than that I don't turn people away with anything unless it's to suggest they'd be better off spending the equivalent money on a new guitar rather than repair a wreck (which I will still happily sort out if it has sentimental value).

digitalscream · September 2023

Worth considering how many of each he's come across.

For example, the aluminium-necked guitars - it's unlikely there's more than one person in his local area that has one, and that person is likely a collector of them. That particular part of the policy is more likely to be a way of saying, "I refuse to do any work for this particular asshole" without the ensuing personal aggravation.

guitars4you · September 2023

A while ago I stopped taking cheap nylon strung/classical guitars in for re-strings - It often started off with, "I've just brought this from a charity shop for £5" or "I've just found this in the attic/garage and want it back in working order for my grandson"

A) - It first went wrong for me when I was part the way thru' a re-string - One of the tuners was as stiff as hell, then the tuning button broke on me - Whose fault is it ? - Mine or was it gunked/rusted up so much and would have gone sooner or later - But as I damaged it, then it is my fault

B ) A set of classical strings is about £8.00 - If I charged £12 for labour to change the strings and tune up, then the £12 certainly won't enrich my life - But as they purchased the guitar for £5 from a charity shop, they then want to moan and have a go at me about £20 - So now I just say no

Pity in away as you would normally try to be helpful - And you never know as one day they might become a regular customer and learn to progress

But then what is it about today whereby they don't try to do it themselves - Enough YouTube clips about which I never had when I had to learn a few tips n tricks

A different story but a similar theme - I use to own a Brietling Watch - Take it to the local store every 5 years or so for a service - Was pushing £400/500 in the end - The days have gone when the old man who had a small independent jewellery store who would sit at a bench and do it himself (remember those old yellow pages adverts for the likes of Fly Fishing by J R Hartley) - So I sold it as I just got fed up with such service fees - But could you imagine good local guitar techs charging £200-£400 to service your Custom Shop/Boutique pride and joy

SteveRobinson · September 2023

GoldenEraGuitars said:

It doesn’t make you less of a specialist because you don’t want to work on certain items.

Surely it makes you *more* of a specialist, and less of a generalist?

OilCityPickups · September 2023

I have a 'sucking air slowly in through the teeth' list when it comes to rewinding pickups. I don't exclude any - but I do in a jocular way ask if they are sitting down before I quote a price. Some pickups that are held together by rivets and require new parts manufactured, some air coils (that are a work of Satan's nastier younger brother) and all cheaper blade pickups - that are basically not built to be repaired. All doable, but after doing them you need a stiff drink and a little lie down :-)

Kalimna · September 2023

SteveRobinson said:

GoldenEraGuitars said:

It doesn’t make you less of a specialist because you don’t want to work on certain items.

Surely it makes you *more* of a specialist, and less of a generalist?

I was going to say the very same.

Funkfingers · September 2023

My recollection of the Ovation Matrix electro-acoustic guitar is that its fingerboard and frets were a single piece of aluminium. Built-in obsolescence or what?

It is not possible to remove worn frets or plane the board. Perhaps, a desperate owner tried grinding off the old frets and bonding on a new set?

Alternatively, build up the worn frets to the correct heights with MIG welding, then, level and reprofile them.

Even after all that, the Matrix would suffer tuning stability issues! Clearly, this is one Matrix that should not be resurrected.

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Guitar Tech - Exclusion List?!

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