Circle of 5ths with modes

goldtop · August 2023

No idea if this is useful to anyone else, or so obvious that I'm showing my ignorance! Anyhoo...

I have been trying to get my head around modes. And I now understand them well enough, but my know-how isn't deep enough yet. I keep needing to look them up, or having to get pen+paper out to work them out.

Then I had a look at the classic Circle of Fifths diagrams that are in every music theory tutorial and saw that adding a rotatable ring around the outer edge makes it easy to see the modes and their chords for any key:

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/a15ff872a15802965168e5ab3802137408cf83bc7599ce9cc0

The idea is to print it out and create a spinning outer edge. Making it a see-thru overlay will let me do a few other things (markers for chromatic mediants, etc).

Caveat: it's v0.9, hot off the press, not yet proof-read nor checked.

Tannin · August 2023

goldtop said:

adding a rotatable ring around the outer edge makes it easy to see the modes and their chords for any key:

Not without you explaining how it works it doesn't! What do modes have to do with 5ths?

Wazmeister · August 2023

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BX9PV6B1?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

goldtop · August 2023

Imagine there's a dotted line between the outer colour arcs and the circle of fifths, and that the outer arcs can rotate about the centre. And imagine that we've aligned the topmost pointer with the C, as shown in static form above.

The purple arc for the Ionian mode is self-explanatory. And is what we mostly use the circle of fifths for.

But if you want to play/write in C Lydian, then you ignore the purple arc and instead you use the chords/notes of covered by the red arc:
C
D
Em
F#ø
G
Am
Bm

(etc)

goldtop · August 2023

Wazmeister said:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BX9PV6B1?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

Yup - but no modes.

roberty · August 2023

There's three variations of the major scale, two variations of the minor scale, and two freaky scales. You've probably used all the major and minor ones. Modes is just a way of seeing how they fit together. The freaky two are used mostly for metal solos and show off jazz nerds

Cranky · August 2023

goldtop said:

Imagine there's a dotted line between the outer colour arcs and the circle of fifths, and that the outer arcs can rotate about the centre. And imagine that we've aligned the topmost pointer with the C, as shown in static form above.

The purple arc for the Ionian mode is self-explanatory. And is what we mostly use the circle of fifths for.

But if you want to play/write in C Lydian, then you ignore the purple arc and instead you use the chords/notes of covered by the red arc:
C
D
Em
F#ø
G
Am
Bm

(etc)

For me the shorthand is remembering (1) the order of modes and (2) that three are major modes, three are minor, and one Locrian that most people don’t care about. In your example of C Lydian, I just know that Lydian is the 4th mode and that C is the 4th of G. Therefore G Ionian/major (because Lydian is a major mode) is the parent of C Lydian and the scale/chords or C Lydian are the scale of G Ionian, but now with a tonal center of C.

Resolving to C feels impossible most days.

But the “parent” concept is a big deal. For some reason, most of us are taught that a major has its relative minor, but we’re rarely taught that it also has its relative Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, etc etc.

Tannin · August 2023

Thanks @goldtop. Now I see it. If thinking about it that way works for you, all power to it. But I think it is vastly easier to simply say "C Lydian = F major = D minor. (Same notes and chords.)

I don't know that I play anything in Lydian, at least not deliberately. I do play quite a lot in Mixolydian (G Mixolydian = C major = A minor), Phrygian (E Phrygian = C major) and especially Phrygian major (F# Phrygian major = B harmonic minor).

I find that the main thing to watch out for is playing a chord sequence which if you were in the parent Ionian mode would be a 2 5 1. EG, if you are in E Phrygian take care not to play Dm -> G7 -> C because that dumps you straight back into C major! You can still play those chords, of course, just not in that order.

But all of this is ignoring my main point, which is simply that there are many ways to understand modes (and indeed most other things) and it is good to have access to as many as possible because Bruce and Ivan and Lin all think in different ways and what makes obvious sense to Bruce is not very helpful to Ivan. When I was first learning about modes, I found it difficult to think of them in the "same notes as X major, different order" way, but easy to think of (e.g.) G Mixolydian as "G major with a flat 7". A few years on, I'm comfortable with either.

TLDR: your wheel is a different take on it - and that can only be a good thing.

viz · August 2023

The other thing is this:

Take a key like C major. Make the above shape around it.

These are all the harmonised chords in C (C Dm Em F G Am BØ)

But more precisely, reading from left to right, they are the modes of C, in order of lightest to darkest. F C G Dm Am Em BØ. (You can also read them round the outer edge, from F to B, but that doesn’t show which are major modes and which are minor modes.) This is the connection between modes and 5ths. Each mode is a 5th apart, if you go in this sequence.

What is the generic sequence of modes from lightest to darkest? It’s Lydian Ionian Mixolydian Dorian Aeolian Phrygian Locrian (LIMDAPL or “lime dapple” if you want a mnemonic). The first 3 are the major modes. The next 3 are the minor modes. And the last one is the diminished mode. So LIM-DAP-L.

By the way, how do you get from lightest to darkest?

- Lydian has its 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th raised.
- Locrian has its 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th and 7th lowered.
- To get from Lydian to Locrian, you progressively lower a note, the 4th, the 7th, the 3rd, the 6th, the 2nd and finally the 5th. (Tannin, these notes are also 5ths apart.)

Anyway, this diagram tells you, if you want to stay in the key signature of C (no sharps or flats), you also have F Lydian, G Mixolydian, D Dorian, A Aeolian, E Phrygian and B Locrian as scales.

Edit - on Cranky’s point about relatives, yep they’re all relatives because they all share the same notes. But some relationships are closer than others. The closest relationship is major and its relative minor (think brother and sister). But there are three such relationships. Looking ar LIM-DAP-L, we know that Ionian is the relative major of Aeolian. These two sit in the middle of their major and minor sets (LIM-DAP-L). But also if you pick the lightest of each set - so that would be Lydian and Dorian (LIM-DAP-L), they are also share a brother-sister relationship. They both have a raised note compared to their standard major or minor (Lydian has a raised 4th compared to Ionian, and Dorian has a raised 6th compared to Aeolian). That’s speaking generically. Specifically, the picture tells you that D Dorian is the relative minor of F Lydian. And also E Phrygian is the relative minor of G Mixolydian.

What’s also cool is that, if you take the two light ones, F Lydian and its closest relative, D Dorian, they both have something in common - a raised note. In Lydian, it’s the 4th. In Dorian it’s the 6th. Because relative major and minor are a minor 3rd apart, that raised note is also a 3rd apart, so it’s the same note - the B. If we were talking about F major and D minor, that would be a Bb.

Same wirh G Mixolydian and E Phrygian - the F is lowered. If it were G major and E minor, they would both require an F#.

roberty · August 2023

That's blown my mind a little bit @viz. I guess it's logical since each fifth is one accidental apart

Neilybob · August 2023

Love this! Thank you

viz · August 2023

roberty said:

That's blown my mind a little bit @viz. I guess it's logical since each fifth is one accidental apart

Yep, exactly. And here are some diagrams that support what Goldtop was saying, take your pick, hope something's useful in there.

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/01e53b3ed6c9305754c860d34a4f31bf703ab0cf7cc8fd5747

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/bb0e848aa040b62b046aa69ee2273ed60b5b5979d6b225bb29

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/42ad1f02ce7930247a80b3ddd6d729f427e5e65e623b4b688c

Image: https://tfb-user-images.eu-central-1.linodeobjects.com/dc7605baf3cb6fd802128b8a17864129ee9800a136c4fc98eb

stufisher · August 2023

I read this stuff and marvel at the collective knowledge, wisdom and mastery in this community ... I doff my cap to all of you

I know that my compete lack of theory is a major limitation for my playing ... I know that if I invested time in learning this properly it would improve my fluidity and confidence ... probably help me write stuff too.

However, it all comes back to a simple choice for me every time I pick up a guitar:

Work out how to play what's in my head at the time by trial and error, based on sound alone or study/learn/apply the theory. The former wins every time for me, despite my intent to tackle the latter.

So, to you, the cognoscenti I ask ... how do I best resolve (sic) my conflict? What can I do that's easy to get me learning a little without scuppering my ad hoc, free form, rock-out sessions?

All advice welcome.

goldtop · August 2023

Hey @viz thanks for taking the time to go into so much detail. Super useful. Amazing to see where LIMDAPL info is present within the existing circle.

There's a ton of other stuff that's right there, too. As you can see I added the direction for some of the dominant V7 chord as an aide memoire. But of course, I now see that the ii for a ii-V-I is right there in a consistent position, too.

I spent so many years (actually, decades!) casually learning things by ear and only getting a partial picture based on the patterns/cliches of the music I was trying to learn. Then there were the occasional 'happy accidents' that sounded right, although I had no idea why.

Having now bought a piano and started to work things out from first principles has opened up a lot of new ways of writing and playing. And lots of questions with it!

Benm39 · August 2023

Yup, super useful stuff... I kinda know and vaguely understand some of this from my piano studies but I was always a bit lazy and play by ear rather than really unlocking. Seeing theory laid out like this is much more of an 'aha!' realisation. Inspires me to get back to enjoying things like scale exercises and learning fretboard knowledge rather than them being things I know I ought to do but don't necessarily enjoy. Thanks to both @goldtop and @viz for the inspiration. I've a week off and shiny 'new to me' guitar to collect mid week so that's me sorted with getting to know it

Cheers also to @Wazmeister for the link to the circle of 5ths card, that's just gone on the last minute Birthday gift list

ArchtopDave · August 2023

roberty said:

That's blown my mind a little bit @viz. I guess it's logical since each fifth is one accidental apart

This is where "Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle" is of some use.

These Diagrams instantly reminded me of my school days, when Slide Rules were objects of considerable scholastic desire. I can imagine these Diagrams being imprinted on them, particularly one of the cylindrical ones, which I never owned (I seem to remember they were particularly expensive).

goldtop · August 2023

ArchtopDave said:

roberty said:

That's blown my mind a little bit @viz. I guess it's logical since each fifth is one accidental apart

This is where "Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle" is of some use.

These Diagrams instantly reminded me of my school days, when Slide Rules were objects of considerable scholastic desire. I can imagine these Diagrams being imprinted on them, particularly one of the cylindrical ones, which I never owned (I seem to remember they were particularly expensive).

That's useful, although there are so many nmemonics that I forget which one I need.

Although I really like LIMDAP (I feel that my life doesn't really need locrian!)

So for the Co5ths diagram, the way I saw it - and the reason I didn't show sharps/flats - is that the info seems to be there already. Each time we step clockwise around the circle, we gain the note named as the next ø chord. So from C aeolian to G aeolian, the F# is added (and the F dropped). Then to D aeolian, the C# is added and the C dropped. (Looks like there's a slightly different pattern for heading anti-clockwise.)

@stufisher - I am just slightly further along than you on this theory journey. The reason I started was partly because of the new instrument - piano. Having no muscle memory or go-to-favourites on the keyboard, I started playing and liking stuff that I couldn't explain, but sounded good. And that's stuff I probably wouldn't have discovered on the guitar.

This Cof5ths definitely helps me understand the progressions - some very basic, but some more convoluted. One I am working on I now know to be in E Dorian a la Pink Floyd. Although it has some exceptions, but I'll save those for another thread).

viz · August 2023

goldtop said:

(Looks like there's a slightly different pattern for heading anti-clockwise.)

Anticlockwise is Father Charles goes down and ends battle, but in reverse. Battle ends and down goes Charles’s father.

So F major has a Bb, Bb major keeps that and adds an Eb, etc.

Cranky · August 2023

I don’t pretend to be a theory or playing pro, but if you haven’t taken the time to run the scales up and down a single octave on a piano, it is visually so much clearer than on a guitar (or, for me, than on a Circle of 5ths diagram). Yes, technically those black keys are wonky to play, but you can see one more black key (aka accidentals) added to the scale every time you go up a 5th (and it’s always the major 7th of whichever key you are in that gets added).

But in the spirit of the op and knowing the chords of the mode, it has been easiest for me to know which chords are in play by understanding the “relative” concept. And big wiz to viz (does anyone have more wiz points than viz?) for adding that depth about lightness/darkness and varying proximity of relation between modes. So Mixolydian and Phrygian are closer due to the flat 7/2 relationship?

goldtop · August 2023

viz said:

goldtop said:

(Looks like there's a slightly different pattern for heading anti-clockwise.)

Anticlockwise is Father Charles goes down and ends battle, but in reverse. Battle ends and down goes Charles’s father.

So F major has a Bb, Bb major keeps that and adds an Eb, etc.

A palindromic mnemonic. yikes...

That said, for anti-clockwise motion, for me it's easier to look at the root note of the new IV chord coming in to the segment. And for clockwise motion, it's the same but looking at the new diminished chord.

viz · August 2023

Yes, or just think of a V-I cadence and flatten the new root (the original 4th).

I’ve made a mnemonic for the minor keys - not the sharps and flats because Father Charles is still relevant for them, but for the keys themselves. It is rather hard to remember due to there being 4 people involved

Clockwise: Aunt Elizabeth’s baby-face couldn’t grace Daughter Alice.

Anti-clockwise: Alice’s daughter, Grace, couldn’t face Baby Elizabeth’s aunt.

goldtop · August 2023

I can't even spell pnemonic the same way twice. I've no chance.

viz · August 2023

Cranky said:

So Mixolydian and Phrygian are closer due to the flat 7/2 relationship?

Yep, and the distance upwards from Mix’s b7 to Phryg’s b2 is a minor 3rd, so they conform to the same relative movement that major and minor do. (The note of importance goes up a minor 3rd, so the scales must move down a minor 3rd to make those important notes the same. Haven’t explained that well). Same with Lydian’s raised 4th and Dorian’s raised 6th.

Totally agree wuth you about the piano layout. Everything falls into place because it’s the perfect model of the diatonic system.

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Circle of 5ths with modes

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