Playing blues changes.

octatonic · August 2023

This could have gone in theory but probably more people will see it in technique.

I was chatting to a couple of guitarist friends over the weekend about 12 bar blues blues changes and they both professed to not really completely understand how to negotiate a typical blues progression in terms of targeting chord tones. They know the term (probably because they are friends of mine and I bang on about it all the time) and roughly know what it is about but in the heat of the moment it all falls apart and they end up in endless-noodle-land.

I wondered if people who are in the same situation would be interested in a comprehensive breakdown of several different approaches you can take with a 12 bar blues progression?

It would be pretty straight forward, aimed at intermediate players who already know the minor pentatonic but tend to end up noodling in that scale over the whole progression and wondering why it gets boring and things eventually sound not quite right.

The goal would be to get playing sympathetically through a progression so it sounds like you know what you are doing.
I'd be focussing on the last 4 bars of the pattern for the most part, which is when people tend to freak out or freeze up.
I'd also be focussing a lot on phrasing so it might include a bit of bespoke video content that I can quickly upload and people could do the same if they were feeling brave.

If you are already comfortable doing this then it probably isn't for you and of course everyone can comment but I want to keep it as much as possible aimed at getting people the next step along so maybe we don't talk about outside playing or advanced approaches.

Who is interested?
If you don't want to comment maybe hit Wisdom so I can see if this is something people actually want.

viz · August 2023

Oooo go for it!!!

Neilybob · August 2023

Yes please

EricTheWeary · August 2023

I’d certainly follow that. I do understand the basic concepts but tend to rely on stock phrases for the last four bars (well, even more so than for the preceding eight).

monquixote · August 2023

I think it would be a great idea.

It's something I'm comfortable with in a fairly basic way in that I visualise the chord voicing that would sit in the fretboard position I'm currently in and try and target notes that sit in the chord. This comes from having to do a bit of a combined rhythm and lead style in one guitar bands, but it's served me well with solos.

I think one thing that I'd like to see around targeting tones is what to do about 3rds especially where you see a lot of people hammering away in A minor pentatonic over an A7 chord with a very clashy minor 3rd.
I tend to always bend or slide the 3rd between minor and major as I think that's where some of the blues magic lives, but it's definitely something I see beginners struggle with.

Danny1969 · August 2023

monquixote said:

I think it would be a great idea.

It's something I'm comfortable with in a fairly basic way in that I visualise the chord voicing that would sit in the fretboard position I'm currently in and try and target notes that sit in the chord. This comes from having to do a bit of a combined rhythm and lead style in one guitar bands, but it's served me well with solos.

I think one thing that I'd like to see around targeting tones is what to do about 3rds especially where you see a lot of people hammering away in A minor pentatonic over an A7 chord with a very clashy minor 3rd.
I tend to always bend or slide the 3rd between minor and major as I think that's where some of the blues magic lives, but it's definitely something I see beginners struggle with.

I think covering this would be a good idea.

One thing I always say to students is if you don't know what chords you are solo'ing over and thus what notes they contain then you are seriously hindering your chances of playing tastefully over the changes. That thing you were forced to do, playing both lead and rhythm at once ... and probably snatches of riff and stabs of chords to ape a 2 guitar part is the best way of practicing solo'ing IMHO as it means you are always hearing how the solo sounds with the chords.

The maj / minor and half sharp min 3rd is definitely where some of the best bluesy sounding action is.

PeteC · August 2023

great idea .. and maybe start with the typical rock blues 12 bar I, IV , V stuff , and progress gently into jazz blues changes

Benm39 · August 2023

Yup, I'd be up for this. All helps to get out of a noodling rut

Dave8 · August 2023

octatonic said:

If you don't want to comment maybe hit Wisdom so I can see if this is something people actually want.

Excellent plan for extra wisdom points

digitalkettle · August 2023

Dave8 said:

octatonic said:

If you don't want to comment maybe hit Wisdom so I can see if this is something people actually want.

Excellent plan for extra wisdom points

Think of it as an up-front payment

stickyfiddle · August 2023

Great idea. Not something I personally need but I know plenty who'd benefit and I'd be highly supportive in whatever way I can

rustneversleeps · August 2023

Yes pleeeze.

euan · August 2023

Its always worth hearing someone else's approach

octatonic · August 2023

monquixote said:

I think it would be a great idea.

It's something I'm comfortable with in a fairly basic way in that I visualise the chord voicing that would sit in the fretboard position I'm currently in and try and target notes that sit in the chord. This comes from having to do a bit of a combined rhythm and lead style in one guitar bands, but it's served me well with solos.

I think one thing that I'd like to see around targeting tones is what to do about 3rds especially where you see a lot of people hammering away in A minor pentatonic over an A7 chord with a very clashy minor 3rd.
I tend to always bend or slide the 3rd between minor and major as I think that's where some of the blues magic lives, but it's definitely something I see beginners struggle with.

Yes, the minor pentatonic over a dominant chord is an interesting place.
There area lot of different ways to approach it.

I'll put a progression up so people can see:

So say we were playing an Am blues: Am7, Dm7, E7.
At Bar 9 we go from an Am7 chord (A C E G) to E7 (E G# B D).

What I am not going to do here is just give people licks to learn because we want to be doing the 'teach a man to fish' approach.

In terms of how do you deal with the minor 3rd over a major chord this is where a few conceptual issues come into play.
Danny1969's point of 'if you don't know what chords you are solo'ing over and thus what notes they contain then you are seriously hindering your chances of playing tastefully over the changes' is bang on.

You have to know, at the very least, what the target notes of the chord are.
What I mean by 'target notes' is the 3rd and the 7th of each chord (as well as the root).
You should hopefully be able to place those notes on the fingerboard, if not the entire length then at least around the 4th to 8th frets sort of region.

The target notes of the above progression's chords are:

Am7: C and G
Dm7: F and C
E7: G# and D

Don't worry about the 5th for now. 5ths give a chord stability and whilst you could target the 5th of a chord you should focus on 3rds and 7ths.

An early exercise I give students about playing over the V chord on bar 8 is to bend up from F# to the G# (2nd string 7th fret 3rd finger) and then back to the F# and then down to the E (2nd string 5th fret, 1st finger), then slide the whole thing down 2 frets to play over the IV chord and play a similar line but instead of bending up a tone just bend up a semitone (from E to F)

I'll record a version of this a bit later and post it.
You can clearly hear the chord change outlined just playing single notes.

Now do it again but this time instead of bending From F# to G# just bend up to G.
Technically you are playing a dissonant note- the G over the the E7 but that tension is a big part of playing blues and it can sound good, esp if you slightly overbend the G.

Bends are a great way to approach this issues because you can slightly overbend so that you are somewhere in between the G and the G#. Practicing that bend a number of different ways is good practice. I like to get students to overbend (a bit) so they know how far they can push it. This is an area of 'if it sounds good then it is good'.

When you bend how accurate you have to be to the note sort of depends on what the purpose of the bend is.
Is it a passing note (as in a note that is played on its way to something else) or is it a destination note?

BTW we call them 'target notes' because those notes are (almost) foolproof places to end a phrase or lick for the chord they are related to.

I like to get people to do the 'wrong thing' (if there is such a thing) as a contrast exercise.
So when playing over the V chord try ending your phrase on the 4th (A) rather than G#.
In Jazz this would be called an 'avoid note'.
It will have an unresolved sound to it and whilst there are times (and progressions) where it might be appropriate we should start by learning all the straight forward stuff first, that can be easily applied.

So whenever you change chord at this stage it is good to say to yourself 'IV chord, F or C' 'V chord: G# and D' and sort of talk yourself through the chord changes and try to land on one of those notes.

So as an exercise set your metronome to about 75% of the typical pace of a slow blues tune.
Say 60 bpm.
This will give you some thinking time and we can speed it up later.

Play through the first 4 bars of the progression playing a line based around the A pentatonic minor scale ending on the note A (I'll try to post a recording of one too).
(Notes: A C D E G A).

When you get to bar 5 play exactly the same thing but this time ending on the note D.
This is a very common approach to take and a good one for beginners because you only have to remember a single line with a slight modification.

You will have heard lots of blues tunes do this or something similar but if it is your first introduction to targeting a chord tone it might take you a little while to get something you like.
Here is what you do.

SING IT.

We are not trying to shred.
You want to come up with (improvise) a memorable melodic line and that means you should be able to sing it.
For now approach this from the position of 'if I can't sing it then I'm not using it'.

If this is too much then try a simpler approach which is to get yourself a blues backing track and just play the chord tones.
A little bit later there is an exercise that we can do where you move about the neck playing just chord tones of any progression. This is super helpful in filling in any fretboard gaps whilst keeping you thinking about not just noodling in a scale but actually shifting your thinking with each chord.

I've got a bit of time tomorrow where I can record some examples of what I've written above so it should make a bit more sense.

octatonic · August 2023

Dave8 said:

octatonic said:

If you don't want to comment maybe hit Wisdom so I can see if this is something people actually want.

Excellent plan for extra wisdom points

There are far less time consuming ways to do that.

octatonic · August 2023

In my longer post above what I am trying to illustrate is the mindset of playing changes more than anything.

If you have only ever noodled over a progression with the minor pentatonic you might find you are having to do a lot more thinking.
It will get easier.

In the early stages you may have to actively think about what the chord tones//target notes are for each chord.
Once you've been doing it for a while you will just know it- like you do the alphabet which allows you to read this text as complete sentences with meaning.

Y O U D O N T H A V E TO R E A D E A C H L E T T E R one by one.

You get me?

stickyfiddle · August 2023

octatonic said:

Here is what you do.

SING IT.

We are not trying to shred.
You want to come up with (improvise) a memorable melodic line and that means you should be able to sing it.
For now approach this from the position of 'if I can't sing it then I'm not using it'.

Wis for all of it but double wis for this. It's the fundamental thing behind just about everything that is good

Cranky · August 2023

I’m in.

Fwiw I can share one epiphany I had recently. It’s very simple and probably only the beginning of what octotonic has to offer. But I finally took the time to write out chord tones. The 7th of the IV chord is the minor 3rd of the I chord. So if I’m “playing the chords” aka soloing using chord tones, I like to hit that major-to-minor 3rd shift when the progression moves from I to IV. That’s a semitone to emphasize. Otherwise I noodle in I major pentatonic during the I and V chords and I minor pentatonic during the IV chord.

axisus · August 2023

As someone who built their house on an island in endless-noodle-land I would say I'm interested. I will see what I can make of your long post when I get a minute.

octatonic · August 2023

axisus said:

As someone who built their house on an island in endless-noodle-land I would say I'm interested. I will see what I can make of your long post when I get a minute.

I hope you get something out of it.
If anything is not clear then just ask and I can go over it.

thomasw88 · August 2023

I suggest learning the major blues scale as well as the minor blues scale.

If playing a Major Blues - The major/minor blues scale works over the 1 chord, the minor scale works better over the 4 chord and over the 5 depending on how your feeling either works!

Dominic · August 2023

TRI Tones

stratman3142 · August 2023

thomasw88 said:

I suggest learning the major blues scale as well as the minor blues scale.

If playing a Major Blues - The major/minor blues scale works over the 1 chord, the minor scale works better over the 4 chord and over the 5 depending on how your feeling either works!

When I was working things out for myself by ear, copying players like Paul Kossoff and Lesley West, I spotted the major pentatonic first, although I didn't know it was called that at the time. Then I discovered that the bluesy (minor pentatonic) sounds they were creating were from similar note patterns but shoved up three frets. I don't think of it that way now, but it worked for me in the early days

I find Clapton's solo in Crossroads is a good example of combining major and minor (bluesy sounds) pentatonic type sounds. I used to call the major pentatonic the 'country scale', because it sounded like country music to me, before I later discovered it was the major pentatonic.

By 'major blues scale', I assume you mean major pentatonic plus b3, and 'minor blues scale' as minor pentatonic plus b5. That's the way I think of it.

thomasw88 · August 2023

stratman3142 said:

thomasw88 said:

I suggest learning the major blues scale as well as the minor blues scale.

If playing a Major Blues - The major/minor blues scale works over the 1 chord, the minor scale works better over the 4 chord and over the 5 depending on how your feeling either works!

When I was working things out for myself by ear, copying players like Paul Kossoff and Lesley West, I spotted the major pentatonic first, although I didn't know it was called that at the time. Then I discovered that the bluesy (minor pentatonic) sounds they were creating were from similar note patterns but shoved up three frets. I don't think of it that way now, but it worked for me in the early days

I find Clapton's solo in Crossroads is a good example of combining major and minor (bluesy sounds) pentatonic type sounds. I used to call the major pentatonic the 'country scale', because it sounded like country music to me, before I later discovered it was the major pentatonic.

I don't tend to think so much about scales now tbh. But I do think people should learn both the blues scales as a starting point, and then think of any other note outside them as a passing note unless you wish to not to.
Pentatonic scale is just a blues scale without a flattened 3rd or 5th depending on which scale you're using.. so use them both and see what works for you.

stratman3142 · August 2023

@thomasw88 sorry I edited the end my post because I later realised you weren't just taking about about basic pentatonics.

Lewy · August 2023

This sounds like a great approach to give people a more cohesive way of playing over blues changes, independent of the specific genre context. Which is great because they are everywhere.

I think if the goal is "play better blues guitar" then that's different - the only thing I've seen people do to achieve that is learn and synthesize vocabulary.

Kilgore · August 2023

I'm in.

I've got a rudimentary( possibly erroneous) understanding of chord tones. I get by with winging it, but could be better with a clear understanding.

octatonic · August 2023

OK, so it seems people are up for it.
The long post on the first page is a good starting point.
Please take a look at it and ask any questions that you might have.

My day has been blown out but I'll get working on some content and some tasks for people to do.

Paul_C · August 2023

octatonic said:

In my longer post above what I am trying to illustrate is the mindset of playing changes more than anything.

If you have only ever noodled over a progression with the minor pentatonic you might find you are having to do a lot more thinking.
It will get easier.

In the early stages you may have to actively think about what the chord tones//target notes are for each chord.
Once you've been doing it for a while you will just know it- like you do the alphabet which allows you to read this text as complete sentences with meaning.

Y O U D O N T H A V E TO R E A D E A C H L E T T E R one by one.

You get me?

I watched a YouTube video about playing where it was suggested that rather than playing random notes from a scale like single letters from an alphabet it would be better to learn and put together phrases/licks which would better represent words.

I haven't done anything with that statement yet, but I do like the idea of it.

octatonic · August 2023

Paul_C said:

octatonic said:

In my longer post above what I am trying to illustrate is the mindset of playing changes more than anything.

If you have only ever noodled over a progression with the minor pentatonic you might find you are having to do a lot more thinking.
It will get easier.

In the early stages you may have to actively think about what the chord tones//target notes are for each chord.
Once you've been doing it for a while you will just know it- like you do the alphabet which allows you to read this text as complete sentences with meaning.

Y O U D O N T H A V E TO R E A D E A C H L E T T E R one by one.

You get me?

I watched a YouTube video about playing where it was suggested that rather than playing random notes from a scale like single letters from an alphabet it would be better to learn and put together phrases/licks which would better represent words.

I haven't done anything with that statement yet, but I do like the idea of it.

This is an interesting point .

And yes, learning licks is an essential part of the process but with a HUUUUGE caveat which should be printed in 50 ft high neon letters, which is this:

Learning licks by rote without understanding how they fit into the chord, chord progression and key is only half the job,
It is a bit like learning to speak without learning to read- although I am sure someone will object to that phrasing.

This is to distinguish between 'copping licks' and 'transcribing'.
The former is a form of imitation, a sort of musical echolalia.
There is nothing wrong with it in principle but taking the next step to understand what the lick is doing allows you to do several things.
Firstly you can repurpose it in different contexts, over different chords.

In the long post on the first page I say this:

'An early exercise I give students about playing over the V chord on bar 8 is to bend up from F# to the G# (2nd string 7th fret 3rd finger) and then back to the F# and then down to the E (2nd string 5th fret, 1st finger), then slide the whole thing down 2 frets to play over the IV chord and play a similar line but instead of bending up a tone just bend up a semitone (from E to F)'

That is what I am doing there (and why I chose it).
You have a tone bend over the (V) dominant chord and then a semitone bend over the (IV) minor 7 chord, so that the same melodic/rhythmic pattern can be repurposed but still fit into the key.

When people just cop licks they sometimes don't understand how a line fits harmonically and then when they reuse them in the wrong context they sound... wrong.

It also helps fill in your knowledge of harmony, scales and the fretboard.

An exercise:
Here is a diagram of 4 notes placed on the fretboard.
Playing them ascending might be a way to start a blues solo, especially if you bend D up at the end to Eb.

Figure out a few lines that you like using just those 4 notes.
Try to come up with 5-10 variations.

(You could also try to find other places on the fingerboard to play them in different octaves.)

The question I have for people is if you play a line using just these notes over the I chord in a minor blues in A how many of these 4 notes are target notes of the I chord?

To know this you need to know what are the notes of Am7, what are the scale degrees and to know what scale degrees are target notes (I said it on the post on the first page).

Do that and I'll comment a bit later on it.

Second thing to consider.
What relationship do these 4 notes have to the IV chord (Dm7) in our A minor blues?

You should hopefully all have access to a backing track (if not google there are thousands out there) or create yourself a backing track of a minor blues and play lines using just these 4 notes over the I and then the IV chord.

Repeating an almost identical line over the I and IV chord is a great way to establish a melodic pattern that the audience can hook into. I think of it as 'blues cliche #1'. The difference between playing them over the I or IV chord is, at this stage, where you land your phrase. Think back to target notes, each chord has different notes that you want to land on so you alter your phrase slightly to land on a target note specific to each chord.

Final question for this post.
What target notes do the I and IV chord have in common, if any?

EricTheWeary · August 2023

An early exercise I give students about playing over the V chord on bar 8 is to bend up from F# to the G# (2nd string 7th fret 3rd finger) and then back to the F# and then down to the E (2nd string 5th fret, 1st finger), then slide the whole thing down 2 frets to play over the IV chord and play a similar line but instead of bending up a tone just bend up a semitone (from E to F)

I'll record a version of this a bit later and post it.
You can clearly hear the chord change outlined just playing single notes.

Now do it again but this time instead of bending From F# to G# just bend up to G.
Technically you are playing a dissonant note- the G over the the E7 but that tension is a big part of playing blues and it can sound good, esp if you slightly overbend the G.

Jeepers, devil is in the detail there as it the bending exercise sounded like arse. BUT you are using an E7 chord rather than Em7 as I’d assumed/ not read properly. Aha! Well, I suppose it proves the importance of target notes. And reading stuff.

An exercise:
Here is a diagram of 4 notes placed on the fretboard.
Playing them ascending might be a way to start a blues solo, especially if you bend D up at the end to Eb.

Figure out a few lines that you like using just those 4 notes.
Try to come up with 5-10 variations.

(You could also try to find other places on the fingerboard to play them in different octaves.)

The question I have for people is if you play a line using just these notes over the I chord in a minor blues in A how many of these 4 notes are target notes of the I chord?

To know this you need to know what are the notes of Am7, what are the scale degrees and to know what scale degrees are target notes (I said it on the post on the first page).

You have root, third and dominant or minor seventh (or seventh, root and third as you ascend).

Second thing to consider.
What relationship do these 4 notes have to the IV chord (Dm7) in our A minor blues?

fourth, fifth, seventh, root/octave.

Final question for this post.
What target notes do the I and IV chord have in common, if any?

The third in A minor is the same note as the seventh in D minor.

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Playing blues changes.

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