Speaker/Monitor recommendations for a studio

Kebabkid · August 2023

A few years ago, we converted our garage into a sound-proofed space and it's great. The guys who carried out the work were not acoustic specialists and whilst it's a room-within-a-room i.e. suspended floors and ceiling with neoprene under the floorboards with bass traps added soon after (not shown in pic), it's a very boomy space and you cannot rehearse in there with a couple of instruments as it's too fatiguing. It does serve my son well for his acoustic drums and for me to go in on my own and turn up.

We have PA comprised of a Mackie 12 Channel desk and 2 X Behringer Eurolive speakers and whilst it's a perfectly good PA for gigs, in this space, it's almost like overkill and whatever EQ I apply at the desk and/or cut the bass via the controls on the speaker, it's boomy. The speakers are an ok weight, 450w and a regular PA or wedge-sized speaker.

Can anyone recommend a small but loud studio/monitor speaker (it has to be able to compete with an acoustic kit for playing along of songs) that might work in this type of space and with my mixer? I'm happy to lose the PA speakers and effectively my live PA but I want to have good, clear and loud speakers for playback of music.

Alternatively, I may be looking at this in the wrong way and maybe what I have is ok but I should be thinking about proper acoustic treatment but that all sounds costly.

Cheers

octatonic · August 2023

Studio monitors are not really designed to compete with kick drums.
I've got some fairly loud monitors but a loud kit wont sound balanced against them.
You need a PA for that.

Do you have a budget in mind?

Kebabkid · August 2023

octatonic said:

Studio monitors are not really designed to compete with kick drums.
I've got some fairly loud monitors but a loud kit wont sound balanced against them.
You need a PA for that.

Do you have a budget in mind?

Thanks James and probably under £500 for a pair, so cheap-ish.

octatonic · August 2023

Kebabkid said:

octatonic said:

Studio monitors are not really designed to compete with kick drums.
I've got some fairly loud monitors but a loud kit wont sound balanced against them.
You need a PA for that.

Do you have a budget in mind?

Thanks James and probably under £500 for a pair, so cheap-ish.

These of any interest?

https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/244247/fs-focal-alpha-50-evo#latest

John_P · August 2023

I suspect changing the speaker won't make much difference, and you need to add more room treatment. I can imagine it sounding very lively from looking at the pic and my first thoughts would be to add some bass traps in the corners.

Kebabkid · August 2023

Thanks @octatonic and I'll research those but are they 35w and loud enough?

John_P, I have bass traps in all corners and mentioned earlier

Winny_Pooh · August 2023

A decent PA speaker will sound better at very least. Electrovoice, Yamaha or JBL.

Are the bass traps in corners? Considered adding two more floor to ceiling?

octatonic · August 2023

Kebabkid said:

Thanks @octatonic and I'll research those but are they 35w and loud enough?

John_P, I have bass traps in all corners and mentioned earlier

As I said, no studio monitor is designed to get over a bass drum in the same room.
That is what a PA is for.
Even my Kii Threes and ATCs don't get over a bass drum.
That isn't their job.

You can't use a sports car as a tractor and you can't use a tractor as a sports car.
At least not well.

In terms of acoustic treatment, you need a lot more bass trapping in there for it to do any good.
Treat corners.
Why did you place the existing ones where you did?

Is that a mirror I see in the left edge?
That isn't going to help.

But really you need to use a measurement mic and Room EQ Wizard to see what the problems are before doing anything.
You won't get it right by accident.

Kebabkid · August 2023

@Winny_Pooh believe it or not, when we auditioned the Behringers at Andertons in the PA room, they held their own against more expensive speakers and that's why we chose them

Kebabkid · August 2023

octatonic said:

Kebabkid said:

Thanks @octatonic and I'll research those but are they 35w and loud enough?

John_P, I have bass traps in all corners and mentioned earlier

As I said, no studio monitor is designed to get over a bass drum in the same room.
That is what a PA is for.
Even my Kii Threes and ATCs don't get over a bass drum.
That isn't their job.

You can't use a sports car as a tractor and you can't use a tractor as a sports car.
At least not well.

In terms of acoustic treatment, you need a lot more bass trapping in there for it to do any good.
Treat corners.
Why did you place the existing ones where you did?

Is that a mirror I see in the left edge?
That isn't going to help.

But really you need to use a measurement mic and Room EQ Wizard to see what the problems are before doing anything.
You won't get it right by accident.

Thanks and I see.

I used Blue Frog acoustic treatments who did a virtual assessment and supplied the bass traps.

My wife is a singing teacher and required the mirror for her students but I always thought it would compromise things

grappagreen · August 2023

Kebabkid said:

octatonic said:

Kebabkid said:

Thanks @octatonic and I'll research those but are they 35w and loud enough?

John_P, I have bass traps in all corners and mentioned earlier

As I said, no studio monitor is designed to get over a bass drum in the same room.
That is what a PA is for.
Even my Kii Threes and ATCs don't get over a bass drum.
That isn't their job.

You can't use a sports car as a tractor and you can't use a tractor as a sports car.
At least not well.

In terms of acoustic treatment, you need a lot more bass trapping in there for it to do any good.
Treat corners.
Why did you place the existing ones where you did?

Is that a mirror I see in the left edge?
That isn't going to help.

But really you need to use a measurement mic and Room EQ Wizard to see what the problems are before doing anything.
You won't get it right by accident.

Thanks and I see.

I used Blue Frog acoustic treatments who did a virtual assessment and supplied the bass traps.

My wife is a singing teacher and required the mirror for her students but I always thought it would compromise things

Do they get you to take any measurements via REW and do you have the data file (.mdat)?

Si

Kebabkid · August 2023

@grappagreen ;
Hi Si,

I can't remember how we did it and I've been looking back at my emails to see what's what and can't find anything as specific or scientific as that. All I remember were photographs and room dimensions given and then I received some images of things in situ and where bass traps would go but no other dimensional plans.

Given what's been said here, it doesn't sound like monitors are going to work for me due to the acoustic drums - if it was just down to what else we use in there with playback i.e. guitar, bass, keys and vocals, I'd be seriously tempted by your units James @octatonic but for now, I think I'm going to stick with my PA speakers but get a professional acoustic assessment.
Below is a recent picture at the far end - the walls are soundproofed and there acoustic boards around the studio as well as bass traps in 3 corners - one on the left here that cannot go to the ceiling due to the consumer unit being there and 2 stacked to the right, floor to ceiling. There's a third one on the right corner at the other end and a double door.
The drums are on a slightly raised platform with neoprene underneath but there's also neoprene underneath all the floor in there and yes. The mirror is large but can be covered when not in use by my wife and students when teaching vocals and performance.

As mentioned at the start, the remit for this space is more about playing along, practising rehearsing to playback rather than being a rehearsal space for multiple instruments but that would be nice to be able to do at least drums, bass and guitar - Thanks for all your comments so far

AntonHunter · August 2023

Looks great still though. Might you run the risk of over-dampening it if you keep going? Does it need to be a bit more 'live' anyway for your wife's singing lessons? What about putting a curtain rail above the mirror and hanging some acoustic curtains, pull over the mirror when you don't need it, pull back for the singing lessons?

Kebabkid · August 2023

AntonHunter said:

Looks great still though. Might you run the risk of over-dampening it if you keep going? Does it need to be a bit more 'live' anyway for your wife's singing lessons? What about putting a curtain rail above the mirror and hanging some acoustic curtains, pull over the mirror when you don't need it, pull back for the singing lessons?

Exactly that regarding a 'Live element' and we do have acoustic curtains for the door and they can be draped over the mirror. The ceiling is also low

newi123 · August 2023

The challenge is mainly the sheer volume of an acoustic kit in a small space. Assume you have practice pads on the kit? Hot sticks will help, and the real answer is probably that an acoustic kit in that space is always going to be a bit too much..

Much as I dislike them for gigging, an electric kit would work perfectly there!

Winny_Pooh · August 2023

Thinking back on seeing this thread.

Have you considered buying a good headphone amp (Presonus HP60, has ins for every channel so you can add mixer direct outs for each player into their mix) and getting everyone on closed back headphones?

It's a faff to setup at first but you can turn the bass amp down alot (keep it on in the room for some body rumble) and have everything barring drums in the headphones. Should be less fatiguing, save your ears from the drummer too and make the vocals way clearer.

Kebabkid · August 2023

newi123 said:

The challenge is mainly the sheer volume of an acoustic kit in a small space. Assume you have practice pads on the kit? Hot sticks will help, and the real answer is probably that an acoustic kit in that space is always going to be a bit too much..

Much as I dislike them for gigging, an electric kit would work perfectly there!

Hi Neil, I hope all's well.
Indeed and we do have a basic Roland electronic kit that's currently not in there. That does work but not the same and not using hot sticks or practice pads as the kit does sound nice in there.

@Winny_Pooh a good idea but I don't fancy that and want to keep it live, but cheers

newi123 · August 2023

Kebabkid said:

Hi Neil, I hope all's well.
Indeed and we do have a basic Roland electronic kit that's currently not in there. That does work but not the same and not using hot sticks or practice pads as the kit does sound nice in there.

All good here thanks Cos - still looking at tylers, but reasonably settled with a HSS strat now!

Cirrus · August 2023

If it's boomy, are we talking low end? If it's a room within a room, it could be that there's a space between the rooms that's resonating, or even that the raised floor itself is resonating like a drum. What's in the space between the inner and outer rooms?

As for treatment within the room, just from a look at the photos and a bit of guessing, the next area to target would be the ceiling over the drumkit. My experience of drums in small rooms is that a lot of the unpleasantness comes from trashy reflections and the ceiling is a big, flat, reflective surface that's very near the instrument.

PolarityMan · August 2023

Some low volume cymbals might help if it is trashy reflections from the ceiling.

Kebabkid · August 2023

Cirrus said:

If it's boomy, are we talking low end? If it's a room within a room, it could be that there's a space between the rooms that's resonating, or even that the raised floor itself is resonating like a drum. What's in the space between the inner and outer rooms?

As for treatment within the room, just from a look at the photos and a bit of guessing, the next area to target would be the ceiling over the drumkit. My experience of drums in small rooms is that a lot of the unpleasantness comes from trashy reflections and the ceiling is a big, flat, reflective surface that's very near the instrument.

@Cirrus the space between the outer walls and inber walls is filled with rock wool and sand-filled plasterboard. A baffle tile above the drum area isn't a bad shout.

@PolarityMan - the cymbals sound fine. In fact the drum kit sounds good on there and isn't overkill. It's the boominess of playing back music in there to play along to or a bass guitar.

mrkb · August 2023

Where are you positioning the PA speakers? I cant see them in any of the photos.

Kebabkid · August 2023

mrkb said:

Where are you positioning the PA speakers? I cant see them in any of the photos.

On the floor, one in front of the ceiling to floor bass traps and another across the other side of the room in front of another bass trap.
Bass is reduced from the desk and the same from the EQ on the speaker

mrkb · August 2023

Kebabkid said:

mrkb said:

Where are you positioning the PA speakers? I cant see them in any of the photos.

On the floor, one in front of the ceiling to floor bass traps and another across the other side of the room in front of another bass trap.
Bass is reduced from the desk and the same from the EQ on the speaker

Have you tried them on chairs/pa stands to get them away from the floor to avoid bass coupling?

Kebabkid · August 2023

mrkb said:

Kebabkid said:

mrkb said:

Where are you positioning the PA speakers? I cant see them in any of the photos.

On the floor, one in front of the ceiling to floor bass traps and another across the other side of the room in front of another bass trap.
Bass is reduced from the desk and the same from the EQ on the speaker

Have you tried them on chairs/pa stands to get them away from the floor to avoid bass coupling?

The stands have wide feet and so no room to use the existing ones and the speakers would need to be only a couple of feet off the ground as the lowness of the ceiling would mean they'd be blasting us at head or near head height if raised any more. I'll meause but the ceiling is just over 6 feet

mrkb · August 2023

Kebabkid said:

mrkb said:

Kebabkid said:

mrkb said:

Where are you positioning the PA speakers? I cant see them in any of the photos.

On the floor, one in front of the ceiling to floor bass traps and another across the other side of the room in front of another bass trap.
Bass is reduced from the desk and the same from the EQ on the speaker

Have you tried them on chairs/pa stands to get them away from the floor to avoid bass coupling?

The stands have wide feet and so no room to use the existing ones and the speakers would need to be only a couple of feet off the ground as the lowness of the ceiling would mean they'd be blasting us at head or near head height if raised any more. I'll meause but the ceiling is just over 6 feet

If they were “blasting you” at head height, then you can turn the volume down. PAs are designed to sound good at ear level. I have mini stands to get mine to about 4ft off the ground.

NJS 35 mm Short Adjustable Aluminium Black PA Speaker Stand - Amazon UK https://www.amazon.co.uk/NJS-Short-Adjustable-Aluminium-Speaker/dp/B00GOQWI40

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