Fender super reverb tonemaster. Is it good enough to convert a valve purest?

markj · August 2023

I know that there’s a lot of love on the forum for the Tonemaster Fender Reverb would it convert a valve purest like me.
I play through a Gartone Bluesman 5e3 only at home and absolutely love it’s tone, rich and fat using a Timmy for boosting.
I’ve been thinking about a tonemaster for a bit mainly because of the reliability and the yearly cost of valves for my 5e3.
How good does the tonemaster match the warmth of a valve amp?

Which version is the better the cream version with the Celestion or the black version?

RickLucas · August 2023

Yearly cost of valves?

markj · August 2023

RickLucas said:

Yearly cost of valves?

The tungstol 6v6gt I change roughly every 12 to 18 months.

sw67 · August 2023

My amps that are used most days + 30 gigs per year don’t get valves changed. The oldest preamp valves came with the amp in 1974.

Danny1969 · August 2023

I wouldn't buy a Tonemaster for the reliability, it's far more likely to fail in use than a typical valve amp. That's not a dig at Fender, they didn't design the amplifier section which is the part most likely to fail.

I haven't changed a valve in my Fender since I got it in 2017 and that's about 300 gigs ago. There are some amps that push the valves way too hard but in most valve amps with sensible circuits the valves won't need replacing for hundreds of gigs.

If you want a Tonemaster because it's light then yeah, they are much lighter in comparison.

p90fool · August 2023

You must have a huge stock of barely used valves, stop buying them and bung 'em back in!

As Danny says, don't buy anything with that kind of cheap, under specced power section for reliability, because they're not.

Tonemasters are a great compromise if you need something light to sling in a car boot, but if it's just for home use it's a tonal compromise you don't need to make.

stickyfiddle · August 2023

As above I love my TMDR but that isn’t a use case where it would be a great option imo.

And I’m 22 years playing guitar I don’t think Ive ever routinely changed valves - only when one’s gone bad.

jellybelly · August 2023

Sounds like you're doing a lot of changing. Not sure I agree with some other opinions that a valve amp is less likely to go down in use - not my experience but we're all dealing with small sample sizes with this reliability stuff other than amp techs.

My TMDR has been flawless and even if the power section is in some technical way 'under-speccd' it's incredibly capable in a gig situation. Played a gig just this Thursday. Small room, 5 on the normal channel volume and set to '1 watt' mode. Plenty loud.

jellybelly · August 2023

Also, a great home amp with the 'attenuator' and fabulously consistent in every scenario too. All the frustrations I had with a valve amp are gone and it's far more accessible than other modelling solutions, having owned a helix.

dazzajl · August 2023

I love the TM range but I think the problem here is that if you like a tweedy kind of sound, none of the TM amps go there.

If you want to add something really different, the 4x10 Super is a great, rich, room filling amp.

markj · August 2023

Back to the basic question does the Tonemaster have the warmth of a valve amp?

munckee · August 2023

markj said:

Back to the basic question does the Tonemaster have the warmth of a valve amp?

When I’ve compared them side by side I would say no. They sound nearly as good as the valve versions but there is an obvious difference still.

Teyeplayer · August 2023

It has the warmth but not the top end ‘glass’ in my experience. However, that is only noticeable when going from one to the other. For general home use, easy rehearsals and a practical option for gigs the TM range are brilliant -neither you or the punters can tell the difference when the drummer kicks in, and at home they are a great plug and play solution.

Danny1969 · August 2023

No SS amp is ever going to sound like a valve amp unfortunately because most of the sound we actually like from a valve amp comes from the output transformer. If it didn't then we could simply feed the output valves into a load, lower the voltage and then feed it into a transistor output stage. When you do this though it doesn't sound like a valve amp anymore.

But it's the transformers that are the big, heavy and expensive parts unfortunately

Winny_Pooh · August 2023

I didnt like the TM deluxe and I doubt you will. The 5e3 is also miles away in terms of design and tone. Dont bother.

ICBM · August 2023

Danny1969 said:

No SS amp is ever going to sound like a valve amp unfortunately because most of the sound we actually like from a valve amp comes from the output transformer.

I'm not convinced of that now. I think the difference is mainly in output stage damping - the reason for this is that I've tried adding an output transformer to a traditional solid-state amp, and it did almost nothing. A valve output stage - which do always use a transformer, in conventional amps - has low damping, so although the two things are related, I think that the transformer alone is not the most important factor.

Danny1969 said:

If it didn't then we could simply feed the output valves into a load, lower the voltage and then feed it into a transistor output stage. When you do this though it doesn't sound like a valve amp anymore.

Because a conventional solid-state output stage has high damping. However, solid-state amps with purposely low output damping - which can be done, but would normally be considered bad design, for PA, hi-fi etc - can have a pretty valve-like sound and response.

Danny1969 said:

But it's the transformers that are the big, heavy and expensive parts unfortunately

Not really - especially if you're just going to use an output transformer, you can use a switch-mode power supply if you want. An output transformer only weighs a few pounds, even for a fairly high-power amp. For up to 20W or so it's only a couple of pounds at most.

Surprisingly, the heaviest part of a conventional valve amp is usually the cabinet - especially for a combo, but even for a head. Speaker magnets probably come next, so a lightweight pine cabinet and neodymium speakers will save a lot of weight. That's really why the Tonemasters are so light, more than not having transformers.

Have a listen to this...

stickyfiddle · August 2023

I don’t know what the “warmth of a valve amp" means. I’ve played plenty of shit sound valve amps in my life and TMs sound way better than a lot of “proper” valve amps.

As Danny says you don’t have the big output transformer, so it won’t sound identical, but you do get a proper cab and speaker which makes a huge difference next to cheaper-made amps (including some that cost more..!)

To my mind - and to elaborate on may earlier post - the point is not to kid yourself that it's literally identical to the Princeton/Deluxe/Super/Twin when compared directly, sat next to each other in a context you can turn the valve amp up to proper volume. They're probably >95% there, but not 100% and that's fine. Where they win is on all the other features:

They weigh half what the valve versions do
They have built-in attenuation that is really really useable, which means
They have built-in DIs with independent volume controls which is an absolute boon for real-world use on stage & in-studio
They work as USB interfaces as well
Did I mention they weigh half?

If you only play at home and don't record and can turn up plenty loud and never lug it up a fire escape at a venue then it's not going to be worth it. But if more than 1 of that list is useful then they're a game changer.

smigeon · August 2023

ICBM said:

Danny1969 said:

No SS amp is ever going to sound like a valve amp unfortunately because most of the sound we actually like from a valve amp comes from the output transformer.

I'm not convinced of that now. I think the difference is mainly in output stage damping - the reason for this is that I've tried adding an output transformer to a traditional solid-state amp, and it did almost nothing. A valve output stage - which do always use a transformer, in conventional amps - has low damping, so although the two things are related, I think that the transformer alone is not the most important factor.

Danny1969 said:

If it didn't then we could simply feed the output valves into a load, lower the voltage and then feed it into a transistor output stage. When you do this though it doesn't sound like a valve amp anymore.

Because a conventional solid-state output stage has high damping. However, solid-state amps with purposely low output damping - which can be done, but would normally be considered bad design, for PA, hi-fi etc - can have a pretty valve-like sound and response.

Danny1969 said:

But it's the transformers that are the big, heavy and expensive parts unfortunately

Not really - especially if you're just going to use an output transformer, you can use a switch-mode power supply if you want. An output transformer only weighs a few pounds, even for a fairly high-power amp. For up to 20W or so it's only a couple of pounds at most.

Surprisingly, the heaviest part of a conventional valve amp is usually the cabinet - especially for a combo, but even for a head. Speaker magnets probably come next, so a lightweight pine cabinet and neodymium speakers will save a lot of weight. That's really why the Tonemasters are so light, more than not having transformers.

Have a listen to this...

Yay - I got it right. I think your point was that SS and valve can sound very close, and of course that both can sound good; and this demo does indeed illustrate that. In the video the SS amp seems to me to have a slight “hardness” to it - especially when the pedals were switched in. And the response also seemed “faster" - a little too fast perhaps. I think I preferred the valve amp for the distortion case, but the SS amp for clean.

That all said, this is obviously just one situation and doesn’t get anywhere near proving that all swans are black! In fact, it proves absolutely nothing :-).

Danny1969 · August 2023

ICBM said:

Danny1969 said:

No SS amp is ever going to sound like a valve amp unfortunately because most of the sound we actually like from a valve amp comes from the output transformer.

I'm not convinced of that now. I think the difference is mainly in output stage damping - the reason for this is that I've tried adding an output transformer to a traditional solid-state amp, and it did almost nothing. A valve output stage - which do always use a transformer, in conventional amps - has low damping, so although the two things are related, I think that the transformer alone is not the most important factor.

Danny1969 said:

If it didn't then we could simply feed the output valves into a load, lower the voltage and then feed it into a transistor output stage. When you do this though it doesn't sound like a valve amp anymore.

Because a conventional solid-state output stage has high damping. However, solid-state amps with purposely low output damping - which can be done, but would normally be considered bad design, for PA, hi-fi etc - can have a pretty valve-like sound and response.

Danny1969 said:

But it's the transformers that are the big, heavy and expensive parts unfortunately

Not really - especially if you're just going to use an output transformer, you can use a switch-mode power supply if you want. An output transformer only weighs a few pounds, even for a fairly high-power amp. For up to 20W or so it's only a couple of pounds at most.

Surprisingly, the heaviest part of a conventional valve amp is usually the cabinet - especially for a combo, but even for a head. Speaker magnets probably come next, so a lightweight pine cabinet and neodymium speakers will save a lot of weight. That's really why the Tonemasters are so light, more than not having transformers.

Have a listen to this...

Some wisdom there but it depends on the amp. I've got 3 AC30's in at the moment and just the amp sections out of the box weight a ton. The output transformers are massive.

Power transformer can be switchmode like the St James but I hope that doesn't become a thing ... because if it does then repairing valve amps is going to become a lot more time consuming and complex. I've got a valve amp in at the more with a SMPS for the low voltage side but being low voltage it's a common module and only £40 to replace.

What you get with any audio transformer when pushed a bit, that I think makes a difference is the non linear in regard to frequency distortion from the transformer. it just sounds more pleasing to my ears on more complex chords than any SS design I have ever played.

I like the Peavey Transtube amps, recorded a few at 2020 and for single note stuff and roots and fifths you would have a job to tell but more complex chords with thirds and sevens tend to sound better with literally any decent valve amp to my ears.

ICBM · August 2023

smigeon said:

Yay - I got it right. I think your point was that SS and valve can sound very close, and of course that both can sound good; and this demo does indeed illustrate that. In the video the SS amp seems to me to have a slight “hardness” to it - especially when the pedals were switched in. And the response also seemed “faster" - a little too fast perhaps. I think I preferred the valve amp for the distortion case, but the SS amp for clean.

That all said, this is obviously just one situation and doesn’t get anywhere near proving that all swans are black! In fact, it proves absolutely nothing :-).

I got it right too, but that's possibly because I own a Peavey Transtube

. I think the important thing is that they do sound very close to each other, to the point that the responses are more or less even (I think - maybe slightly more thought the Peavey was the valve amp) as to which is which.

I agree that it 'proves' nothing - not least because we aren't the player, and the response (rather than the tone alone) is more noticeable when you are - but in fact, the player himself says that he might have struggled to tell them apart if you couldn't see which was which.

Interestingly in the results video he also shows that the Peavey has an Eminence Texas Heat in it - I've recently put a Li'l Texas (the neodymium version of it) in mine, which sounds even better than the Celestion I had in it before. These amps are very sensitive to the speaker, much more than solid-state amps usually are in my experience... which is another feature of low output damping.

Yes, my point is that I think it's a myth that valves have a 'magic' sound which can't be duplicated by some form of solid-state technology - it's just that the reasons for it are more complicated than most people think, ie it's not actually the valves that are the important difference. And I really do think that analogue solid-state is probably the most reliable and most practical solution, and can sound as good as valves if done correctly - which until fairly recently, amp designers have somehow missed.

Tp200023 · August 2023

A left field suggestion given you have a 5e3, but the Award Session amps appear to be highly regarded: https://www.award-session.com/index.php and have a 5e3 "equivalent" (use of inverted commas used purely for protection from valve purists).

I've seen comments previously about digital "ss" vs Analogue ss - I think SS purists distinguish themselves from the tone master serious on the grounds that it is very advanced digital processing rather than SS. (which I think was where @ICBM was going in the previous post about well designed analogue SS)

But I'll admit at this stage, I'm at the outer reaches of my understanding of the subtleties!

FWIW, I had a Deluxe Reverb TM and absolutely loved it. Regret selling it (sure I've said that before!) but it was superb and their implementation of the trem and reverb really was fantastic. Agree with previous comments about response, but not sure I'll ever be good enough at guitar to use that as an excuse!

chris78 · August 2023

I’ve tried a deluxe reverb. Lacked the top end sparkle and cut of a valve amp.
If I was going to try one, the super really appeals, but I can’t imagine one displacing a valve amp, even if lugging one around drives me nuts.

ICBM · August 2023

Danny1969 said:

Power transformer can be switchmode like the St James but I hope that doesn't become a thing ... because if it does then repairing valve amps is going to become a lot more time consuming and complex.

Yes, I completely agree. Both those and Class D output sections are at the point where if a modular replacement isn't available, you're stuffed - they're very hard to repair at component level. (Although not impossible as you will know.)

That's the main reason why I'm still in favour of analogue/linear solid-state, rather than digital modelling/Class D/SMPS - as long as individual components are still available, they will be repairable - and are a mature, reliable technology anyway so less likely to fail in the first place.

Danny1969 said:

What you get with any audio transformer when pushed a bit, that I think makes a difference is the non linear in regard to frequency distortion from the transformer. it just sounds more pleasing to my ears on more complex chords than any SS design I have ever played.

One important characteristic is that a transformer can't pass a square wave properly - the waveform becomes modified into something more like a sawtooth, which is where the myth that valves produce even harmonics when overdriven and transistors produce odd ones comes from... a sawtooth wave is the sum of the even harmonics and a square is the sum of the odd ones. It's the transformer which does that, not the amplifying devices - but of course valve amps have them and solid-state ones usually don't.

Tp200023 said:

I've seen comments previously about digital "ss" vs Analogue ss - I think SS purists distinguish themselves from the tone master serious on the grounds that it is very advanced digital processing rather than SS. (which I think was where @ICBM was going in the previous post about well designed analogue SS)

Yes, the Tonemasters are using digital modelling to simulate the dynamic response of a valve output section, rather than getting it 'naturally' using an analogue output section designed to have the same characteristics, if that makes sense. The actual output section of the Tonemaster is a standard off-the-shelf high-damping Class D module. (And as Danny rightly points out, known to be potentially unreliable.)

guitarmanessex89 · August 2023

Played both the twin and deluxe versions regularly at a blues jam. The deluxe sounds Mike’s better. Never played a super.

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Fender super reverb tonemaster. Is it good enough to convert a valve purest?

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