Struggling to achieve alt picking speed

sjo89 · August 2023

I'm on a mini quest right now to really develop my speed (mainly cos i just wanna have fun and shred, something i've never been able to do well). I'm a big fan of the likes of Sam Coulson - really like that rapid fire pentatonic stuff and like that its conceptually very simple.

Issue I'm having is finding a RH position that's comfortable, whilst also offering max speed. I find resting the heel of my hand on bass strings for muting and pinky on the pickguard to be most comfortable, but as i get fast I find my pink begins to push against pickguard and raise my wrist off strings slightly, causing background noise issues. I also find I have a wiff of Zakk Wylde to my speed picking technique, whereby it comes from the elbow a little, meaning my wrist is rubbing on the strings side-to-side, again creating muting issues.

Another issues is the side of my hand can very gently graze the strings by the bridge when playing at speed, creating an annoying "zing"/muted sound i don't want.

Fast, cross string alt picking is not something that comes naturally to me at all!

roberty · August 2023

Your pinkie should be nice and loose. Sounds like there may be some tension there as you speed up, going from your description. It can rest but should not anchor ideally

I would recommend familiarising yourself with Troy Grady's pick slanting analysis. You don't have to go deep, just the basic concept is enough

This is my go-to recommendation for learning or re-learning the basics

roberty · August 2023

I still watch that Govan video from time to time, to make sure I haven't strayed from the path as it were

sjo89 · August 2023

Thanks. I'm familiar with all that and Troy Grady. Interestingly Guthrie talks about resting on the base of his thumb, rather than the heel of his hand. Issue I have is i wanted to downward pick slant, but when I do, it raises my wrist off the strings a little and also pulls my hand down onto strings causing some palm muting.

roberty · August 2023

sjo89 said:

Thanks. I'm familiar with all that and Troy Grady. Interestingly Guthrie talks about resting on the base of his thumb, rather than the heel of his hand. Issue I have is i wanted to downward pick slant, but when I do, it raises my wrist off the strings a little and also pulls my hand down onto strings causing some palm muting.

Ah okay. I am muting with the thumb part of my hand for down and up slant. The angle I use is very slight. On the low E string I automatically angle up a bit since there is nothing to mute, unless palm muting. Not sure if this helps but it is what I do

digitalkettle · August 2023

I'm forever messing with this...I think I might be having another breakthrough (keeping a loose fist shape and not anchoring the picking hand so much).

Sounds like you're primarily a USX player. What kind of thing are you trying to play and at what tempo? And, ultimately, any close-up playing clips?

sjo89 · August 2023

digitalkettle said:

I'm forever messing with this...I think I might be having another breakthrough (keeping a loose fist shape and not anchoring the picking hand so much).

Sounds like you're primarily a USX player. What kind of thing are you trying to play and at what tempo? And, ultimately, any close-up playing clips?

Right now just fast 2NPS pentatonic stuff - I've experimented with the fist shape, and whilst my muting and accuracy improves - my speed is limited and I also find it hard to palm mute and do quick string crossings this way. Basically, there are pros and cons to all the various permutations of hand shapes/positions and the one that I can play "cleanest" with, is also the one that is the slowest for me and feels quite unnatural

digitalkettle · August 2023

Even of number of notes per string: yay!
Only two per string: meh...not enough time to settle on one string before you have to 'track' over to the next one

What's it like if you play the same speed/subdivisions but two of each note (or three or four)?

i.e. this...                ...instead of this...
e|---------5-5-8-8-|      |-----5-8-|       
b|-5-5-8-8---------|      |-5-8-----|

Lewy · August 2023

Out of interest, what kind of tempo can you play the sort of thing you want to now?

If your speed picking motion has a bit of elbow in it (or like mine a LOT of elbow in it) then I find I really have to concentrate on making sure that elbow motion is still there when I'm practicing slowly, otherwise you're not practicing the same coordination slow as when you speed up. There's a natural tendency to use less elbow and more wrist when you play slowly because playing with your elbow slowly feels weird and unmusical, frankly, but that's the difference between playing slowly and "shredding in slow motion" as @Clarky would put it

sjo89 · August 2023

Lewy said:

Out of interest, what kind of tempo can you play the sort of thing you want to now?

If your speed picking motion has a bit of elbow in it (or like mine a LOT of elbow in it) then I find I really have to concentrate on making sure that elbow motion is still there when I'm practicing slowly, otherwise you're not practicing the same coordination slow as when you speed up. There's a natural tendency to use less elbow and more wrist when you play slowly because playing with your elbow slowly feels weird and unmusical, frankly, but that's the difference between playing slowly and "shredding in slow motion" as @Clarky would put it

I'd say 1/16th notes around 142-145bpm is my limit before it starts to get messy. I think I'm going to have to just beast this and try to get used to keeping my pinky out of the way to avoid muting strings accidentally. I also think tension at speed is unavoidable, its just about keeping it under control and "taut", rather than rigid.

sjo89 · August 2023

digitalkettle said:
Even of number of notes per string: yay!
Only two per string: meh...not enough time to settle on one string before you have to 'track' over to the next one
What's it like if you play the same speed/subdivisions but two of each note (or three or four)?
i.e. this...                ...instead of this...
e|---------5-5-8-8-|      |-----5-8-|       
b|-5-5-8-8---------|      |-5-8-----|

I can do the former faster obviously but thats also a lot to do with the burden on the left hand being much less.

digitalkettle · August 2023

sjo89 said:
digitalkettle said:
Even of number of notes per string: yay!
Only two per string: meh...not enough time to settle on one string before you have to 'track' over to the next one
What's it like if you play the same speed/subdivisions but two of each note (or three or four)?
i.e. this...                ...instead of this...
e|---------5-5-8-8-|      |-----5-8-|       
b|-5-5-8-8---------|      |-5-8-----|
I can do the former faster obviously but thats also a lot to do with the burden on the left hand being much less.

Take the left hand out of it then...

e|---------8-8-8-8-|      |-----8-8-|       
b|-5-5-5-5---------|      |-5-5-----|

Right hand tracking is what I'm struggling with...especially when descending with USX (or ascending with DSX).

axisus · August 2023

I'm a mediocre guitar player in every way, but for some reason alt picking was totally natural and easy for me from day one. Sorry, not helpful but it's the one thing I was good at so I feel the need to pipe up.

sjo89 · August 2023

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBt8kqADAY&ab_channel=golfboy1989

So I filmed myself working on this 2NPS stuff. Have to say I'm amazed at how much my wrist and forearm are moving about at speed. You can also here how as I speed up my wrist drops and starts to mute B string.

digitalkettle · August 2023

sjo89 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBt8kqADAY&ab_channel=golfboy1989

So I filmed myself working on this 2NPS stuff. Have to say I'm amazed at how much my wrist and forearm are moving about at speed. You can also here how as I speed up my wrist drops and starts to mute B string.

Firstly, that's already pretty impressive and a great starting place!

Things I think are worth mentioning:

I think your right hand is executing a double-escape motion: you're getting above the string plane after every string contact (see 0:24 at half speed)
If there's any left hand tension (which seems evident from that pinky), maybe getting the thumb behind the centre of the neck might help...it's hard not to be tense in other areas if you're tense in one area

roberty · August 2023

It does look good mate. It sounds to me like synchronisation is what is limiting your speed rather than picking technique

I use a bit of rotational forearm movement in my picking motion as well as side to side at the wrist, not sure if that's good for everyone though. Depending on what I'm doing there will be different amounts of each movement in the motion

sjo89 · August 2023

digitalkettle said:

sjo89 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBt8kqADAY&ab_channel=golfboy1989

So I filmed myself working on this 2NPS stuff. Have to say I'm amazed at how much my wrist and forearm are moving about at speed. You can also here how as I speed up my wrist drops and starts to mute B string.

Firstly, that's already pretty impressive and a great starting place!

Things I think are worth mentioning:
I think your right hand is executing a double-escape motion: you're getting above the string plane after every string contact (see 0:24 at half speed)
If there's any left hand tension (which seems evident from that pinky), maybe getting the thumb behind the centre of the neck might help...it's hard not to be tense in other areas if you're tense in one area

Yes I was very surprised to see I was doing double escape at speed and at speed there is for sure tension I need to reduce, though I don't think it's possible or necessary to reduce it entirely.

I think the double escape is me attempting to counter my wrist dropping down the strings and muting them...which as you can hear happens anyway. I think when I get tense my wrist wants to flex and the heel of my hand wants to come down.

sjo89 · August 2023

roberty said:

It does look good mate. It sounds to me like synchronisation is what is limiting your speed rather than picking technique

I use a bit of rotational forearm movement in my picking motion as well as side to side at the wrist, not sure if that's good for everyone though. Depending on what I'm doing there will be different amounts of each movement in the motion

Defo issues with sync no doubt. I'm very much not trying to rotate my forearm so I was very surprised to see how U shaped my motion is at speed.

digitalkettle · August 2023

sjo89 said:
Yes I was very surprised to see I was doing double escape at speed and at speed there is for sure tension I need to reduce, though I don't think it's possible or necessary to reduce it entirely.

I think the double escape is me attempting to counter my wrist dropping down the strings and muting them...which as you can hear happens anyway. I think when I get tense my wrist wants to flex and the heel of my hand wants to come down.

I'd agree there: there's always some tension required...just not white-knuckle stuff.

I always keep an eye on Ben Eller's YT channel. In the most recent exercise, which just happens to be about DPS, he's talking about using a 'practice mode' where you make really obvious motions to ingrain what you want your picking hand to do (obviously this doesn't quite gel with the 'start fast' CtC approach).

Final thought for now: try extending your practice run to cover more strings and don't loop from the top back round again without a brief pause...and maybe incorporate speed variances to give you a tiny breather, e.g.

DannyP · August 2023

Do you guys feel there's such a thing as a personal speed limit though?

I've come to the conclusion I just don't have the "fast-twitch" muscles in my fingers to ever get up to the speeds of a metal player. Anything faster than Jimmy Page has always eluded me.

I think that's just down to my physiology and metabolism - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172607/

I can appear quick to the layman with techniques like sweeping, legato and banjo-rolling, but I feel ultrafast stuff will always be beyond my capabilities.

digitalkettle · August 2023

DannyP said:

Do you guys feel there's such a thing as a personal speed limit though?
...

Obviously, my incredibly tasteful sensibilities step in at some point

There must be individual speed limits...but they'll all be faster than you'd ever require in the real world. Not to sound like a CtC evangelist but there's a vid where, without a guitar in sight, they test certain relevant motions (such as knocking on a table) and it's clearly not hard to knock 8th notes well in excess of 200bpm. Once applied to the guitar, this equates to belting out 16th notes with alternate picking.

DannyP said:

...
I can appear quick to the layman with techniques like sweeping, legato and banjo-rolling, but I feel ultrafast stuff will always be beyond my capabilities.

That sounds far more interesting to me: when your playing brings together a personal blend of techniques rather than just being an alternate picking shred-beast...as long as you're in charge of when it happens.

stratman3142 · August 2023

DannyP said:

Do you guys feel there's such a thing as a personal speed limit though?

I've come to the conclusion I just don't have the "fast-twitch" muscles in my fingers to ever get up to the speeds of a metal player. Anything faster than Jimmy Page has always eluded me.

I think that's just down to my physiology and metabolism - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172607/

I can appear quick to the layman with techniques like sweeping, legato and banjo-rolling, but I feel ultrafast stuff will always be beyond my capabilities.

I think I'm in a similar boat to you. Those rapidly picked Eric Johnson/Joe Bonamassa, 2 note per string pentatonic patterns have always eluded me, but I can fake them using pull-offs descending, or hammer-ons ascending

I can pick some scaler 3nps stuff pretty fast. I think I 'swipe' the strings at very high speed (i.e. move parallel rather than slanted). I once slowed down a recording of me playing that first lick in Paul Gilbert's 'Intense Rock' video and I can hear a slight clicking noise

sjo89 · August 2023

If i just alt pick one string as fast as i can but with beat and rhythm, I can play even 1/16ths at 185bpm for about 6-10 seconds before getting messy. I can go faster but the evenness and rhythm starts to drift. This is way faster than I need to be able to go achieve what i want - the issue is clearly to do with string crossing, hand sync and mentally being able to keep up with my fingers.

hollywoodrox · August 2023

I find the difficult thing is accenting so I know where I am at faster speeds

wizbit81 · August 2023

My 2 cents:

What are you actually trying to achieve? Is it to play certain pieces of music? In which case don't bother with exercises just learn those pieces slow and gradually speed them up, as you hit limits you'll work out strategies for getting round it, plus you're learning actual music you like instead of sh*t exercises and so you're liable to work harder and with more commitment.
If it's to build up technique towards a non-specific end then forget it and go work on something you actually want to do.
If it's to build up tech because you want to express yourself at those sorts of tempos then maybe find some licks you like and learn those and steal them, and then start writing some in a similar vein and learn to play your own lines.
Most players who developed high speed picking have strategies for it, like Malmsteen doesn't pick every note, he picks in certain places and hammers/pulls in others in a run where it's convenient. It's only certain people like John McLaughlin who pick everything and have incredible tech for inside, outside, and everything else style picking. For example Frank Gambale uses economy picking pretty much exclusively and so arranges everything where he's going in the same direction as even number of picks on a string, and odd picks if he's changing direction. That's a constraint and a limiting factor but it's essential for him to play like he does.

I'm a lefty who plays right handed and alternate picking was always my biggest issue until one day I decided to sort it by learning some Malmsteen, Dream Theater, and some other stuff. I found limits with my right hand angle, muting, rotation vs side to side, slanting, hand shape etc. and had to adapt to get faster.

Your basic technique looks fine, I just think it probably needs a few hundred hours practicing Gilbert/Malmsteen/DT/Di Meola/McLaughlin stuff and you'll be there.

Also, remember those guys honed their tech doing this for hundreds if not thousands of hours so it takes a similar amount to play like that yourself. You can't wake up and go, 'you know what I want to run 100m in less than 10 seconds.'

Not suggesting you're doing that btw, just trying to put in perspective that really fast and accurate alternate picking is probably the hardest physical thing on guitar and it's almost like an elite sport in terms of what needs to be done to get there.

octatonic · August 2023

DannyP said:

Do you guys feel there's such a thing as a personal speed limit though?

I've come to the conclusion I just don't have the "fast-twitch" muscles in my fingers to ever get up to the speeds of a metal player. Anything faster than Jimmy Page has always eluded me.

I think that's just down to my physiology and metabolism - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172607/

I can appear quick to the layman with techniques like sweeping, legato and banjo-rolling, but I feel ultrafast stuff will always be beyond my capabilities.

I'm just using your post as a launching pad- please don't think I'm criticising you personally, but I do have some points to make on this issue because it comes up a lot with students.

Fast twitch vs slow twitch is a thing but in almost all cases developing a plan and sticking to it is how to crack that problem.

A lot of non-scientific discourse happens on guitar forums regarding FT vs ST and it is usually given as an excuse at to why someone can't do *x*. People also misunderstand the role of each. It isn't 'fast twitch' = 'fast playing'.

Here are some facts:

Slow twitch (type I) fibres produce less force and are slower to produce maximal tension but are better for a stabilisation and control.

There are two different types of fast twitch muscle fibres.
Type IIA and Type IIB (or IIX).
They are both used for fast, powerful movements, but Type IIB are the most powerful.
Type A is essentially somewhere between Type I and Type IIB.

We all have a mixture of these fibres.
Non athletes have about a 50/50 balance.
Power athletes (sprinters. weightlifters) have around 70-75% Type II.
Endurance athletes (marathon runners) have around 70-80% Type I.
Fast twitch fibres decline with age.
You can train to mitigate some of the genetic disadvantages of having more of one type or the other but not all of them.

---- end of facts, now onto my opinion and observations as a tutor.

Some people are naturally better sprinters than weight lifters but all professional sprinters train with weights and can probably out lift almost every person on the site.

Genetics do limit the maximum performance of an individual but for that to be quantified you have to compare two individuals with identical training, diet etc and then compare their performance.
This is essentially impossible with guitar playing.

When playing guitar fast you use utilising a mixture of fast and slow twitch muscle fibres.
There is a need for stability and control as well as a degree of speed and power.
Speed and power without control is not useful, and fast guitar playing is mostly about synchronisation between two hands, not about the speed or power of one hand.

In most cases a lack of speed is down to technique, not a lack of fast twitch muscle fibres.

At the highest athletic levels of ability (in competitive sports) the differences between athlete's times are down to milliseconds. With guitar almost anyone can get to a high level of ability with the right application of a good plan*. (More on that later)

The pick you use (thickness, shape), how you hold the pick, the amount of travel the pick needs to cover and then the amount of drill practice work you put in will far exceed any issues of a lack of fast twitch muscle fibres.

Alternate picking actually isn't my main technique.
There are loads of better players out there with that technique than me.
Why?
Because I found what I liked the sound of was a mixture of legato, hybrid (pick and fingers) and sweep picking.
I worked much harder on those techniques than I did on alternate picking and over time they became my home base for technique where with alternate picking I always feel like it is more effort.

When I drill my alt picking for a couple of weeks I get better at it and it is less effort.
It is still more effort than those other techniques because I have 30+ years of habit to back me up.
If I stop playing for a couple of weeks I still have 80% ish of my technique, especially legato and hybrid.
My alt picking goes to shit very quickly.

I'm an advocate for working on the stuff you are worst at most of the time.
The is where ' the right application of a good plan' comes in.

Almost every guitarist i have ever met who say that 'x' technique something they cannot do because of physiology or genetics is making the mistake of practicing things they are already good at more than things they are not good at.

It is as simple as that.
Alternate picking is harder for some people than others.
I don't deny that.

But with the diligent application to the problem over the course of a couple of months you can massively lift your alt picking game. The problem is that for people who have already a degree of skill on the guitar in other areas it can be psychologically difficult for them to have to 'step backwards' in terms of technique.

Switching from 16th notes at 120BPM alternate to 130bpm might take a week or so to do.
But if you can already shred the ass of the guitar at 160bpm using legato, sweeping and hybrid... why bother with alternate?

That mindset is why people give up on alternate picking.

And maybe it doesn't matter.

It never bothered Holdsworth- he legatoed his way into being a musical giant never really tackling alternate picking.
Do you need to?
I don't know.

But if you want to then know that you can, you just have to do it.
Your fast twitch muscle fibres, or lack thereof, are not holding you back.

sjo89 · August 2023

wizbit81 said:

My 2 cents:

What are you actually trying to achieve? Is it to play certain pieces of music? In which case don't bother with exercises just learn those pieces slow and gradually speed them up, as you hit limits you'll work out strategies for getting round it, plus you're learning actual music you like instead of sh*t exercises and so you're liable to work harder and with more commitment.
If it's to build up technique towards a non-specific end then forget it and go work on something you actually want to do.
If it's to build up tech because you want to express yourself at those sorts of tempos then maybe find some licks you like and learn those and steal them, and then start writing some in a similar vein and learn to play your own lines.
Most players who developed high speed picking have strategies for it, like Malmsteen doesn't pick every note, he picks in certain places and hammers/pulls in others in a run where it's convenient. It's only certain people like John McLaughlin who pick everything and have incredible tech for inside, outside, and everything else style picking. For example Frank Gambale uses economy picking pretty much exclusively and so arranges everything where he's going in the same direction as even number of picks on a string, and odd picks if he's changing direction. That's a constraint and a limiting factor but it's essential for him to play like he does.

I'm a lefty who plays right handed and alternate picking was always my biggest issue until one day I decided to sort it by learning some Malmsteen, Dream Theater, and some other stuff. I found limits with my right hand angle, muting, rotation vs side to side, slanting, hand shape etc. and had to adapt to get faster.

Your basic technique looks fine, I just think it probably needs a few hundred hours practicing Gilbert/Malmsteen/DT/Di Meola/McLaughlin stuff and you'll be there.

Also, remember those guys honed their tech doing this for hundreds if not thousands of hours so it takes a similar amount to play like that yourself. You can't wake up and go, 'you know what I want to run 100m in less than 10 seconds.'

Not suggesting you're doing that btw, just trying to put in perspective that really fast and accurate alternate picking is probably the hardest physical thing on guitar and it's almost like an elite sport in terms of what needs to be done to get there.

I'm essentially trying to develop my ability to play flashy repetitive licks to drop in and out of solos - much in the style of Sam Coulson - it's not anything sophisticated or harmonically complicated and I want to do it just because it looks fun and I like the way it sounds.

digitalkettle · August 2023

sjo89 said:

wizbit81 said:

My 2 cents:

What are you actually trying to achieve? Is it to play certain pieces of music? In which case don't bother with exercises just learn those pieces slow and gradually speed them up, as you hit limits you'll work out strategies for getting round it, plus you're learning actual music you like instead of sh*t exercises and so you're liable to work harder and with more commitment.
If it's to build up technique towards a non-specific end then forget it and go work on something you actually want to do.
If it's to build up tech because you want to express yourself at those sorts of tempos then maybe find some licks you like and learn those and steal them, and then start writing some in a similar vein and learn to play your own lines.
Most players who developed high speed picking have strategies for it, like Malmsteen doesn't pick every note, he picks in certain places and hammers/pulls in others in a run where it's convenient. It's only certain people like John McLaughlin who pick everything and have incredible tech for inside, outside, and everything else style picking. For example Frank Gambale uses economy picking pretty much exclusively and so arranges everything where he's going in the same direction as even number of picks on a string, and odd picks if he's changing direction. That's a constraint and a limiting factor but it's essential for him to play like he does.

I'm a lefty who plays right handed and alternate picking was always my biggest issue until one day I decided to sort it by learning some Malmsteen, Dream Theater, and some other stuff. I found limits with my right hand angle, muting, rotation vs side to side, slanting, hand shape etc. and had to adapt to get faster.

Your basic technique looks fine, I just think it probably needs a few hundred hours practicing Gilbert/Malmsteen/DT/Di Meola/McLaughlin stuff and you'll be there.

Also, remember those guys honed their tech doing this for hundreds if not thousands of hours so it takes a similar amount to play like that yourself. You can't wake up and go, 'you know what I want to run 100m in less than 10 seconds.'

Not suggesting you're doing that btw, just trying to put in perspective that really fast and accurate alternate picking is probably the hardest physical thing on guitar and it's almost like an elite sport in terms of what needs to be done to get there.

I'm essentially trying to develop my ability to play flashy repetitive licks to drop in and out of solos - much in the style of Sam Coulson - it's not anything sophisticated or harmonically complicated and I want to do it just because it looks fun and I like the way it sounds.

...and it could come in handy for this situation:
https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/251347/someone-hands-you-a-guitar-and-says-play-something/p1
Someone hands you a guitar...you drop a 5 minute Zakk Wylde face-melter

Lewy · August 2023

digitalkettle said:

Someone hands you a guitar...you drop a 5 minute Zakk Wylde face-melter

Which let's face it is what everyone fantasises about when they first get a guitar....

digitalkettle · August 2023

Lewy said:

digitalkettle said:

Someone hands you a guitar...you drop a 5 minute Zakk Wylde face-melter

Which let's face it is what everyone fantasises about when they first get a guitar....

Probably all stemming from Back to the Future.

Lewy · August 2023

sjo89 said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZBt8kqADAY&ab_channel=golfboy1989

So I filmed myself working on this 2NPS stuff. Have to say I'm amazed at how much my wrist and forearm are moving about at speed. You can also here how as I speed up my wrist drops and starts to mute B string.

What I'm seeing in this video is that when you're starting slowly and speeding up, you're not using the same motion for the slow as you're using for the fast. There's little or no elbow at the beginning of your ramp up, and a visible amount once you're up to speed. I've made a satisfying amount of progress by making sure that when I'm going slow to get my coordination together, I'm using my quick motion slowed down, not my slow motion.

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Struggling to achieve alt picking speed

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