Well done Bourgeois!

DavidR · July 2023

Just appearing on UK shores this year is the new Touchstone Vintage Series

Vintage/TS | Guitar Models | Bourgeois Guitars

The products of Bourgeois collaboration with Eastman of China. The business model is that Bourgeois make the tops, ship them to China for Eastman to add the rest of the guitar and then they ship them back to Bourgeois for final setup. Bourgeois are confident enough of their input to put their name to the headstock.

So far an OM and a square-shouldered dreadnought both of which borrow Martin herring bone purfling, Martin headstock shape, Martin Rosette, Martin style fretboard markers. In fact, lets be honest, they look an awful lot like an OM28 and a D28 don't they.

The Bourgeois Touchstone Vintage OM is more analogous to the Martin OM28 Standard rather than the top of the range Modern Deluxe lacking as it does the Modern Deluxe features.

But here's the thing Bourgeois Touchstone Vintage OM TS £2,599
Martin OM 28 Standard £3,659
Martin OM 28 Modern Deluxe £4,499

So if you want a very good OM with a premium US brand name on the headstock take a look at the more mid-range Bourgeois. Yes, they are all different instruments when judged on the basis of tone. But they also vary in the extent that they represent good value for essentially very similar instruments.

Well done Bourgeois. Parking on other peoples lawns is totally acceptable commercially and benefits the customer.

On the way? An OO and a slope-shouldered dreadnought at, one suspects, a similar price point

Martin Modern Deluxe Series 00-28 Modern Deluxe

Martin Modern Deluxe Series 00-28 Modern Deluxe

Martin OM28 Modern Deluxe

Bourgeois Touchstone OM Vintage T2302008

Bourgeois Touchstone Vintage TS OM

And yes, I know, just because guitars look alike doesn't mean they're the same.

stickyfiddle · July 2023

These have been several years in the making and will be really really great guitars.

It’s hardly like Bourgeois is the first to make their own dread & OM clones, so I don’t really see the point in criticising that aspect (if that was the intent?)

My own “full fat” Mahogany D knocks spots off every modern Martin I’ve ever played, so I’m guessing these will be aimed at being similar to the regular modern Martin stuff but a big chunk cheaper. I look forward to trying one!

DavidR · July 2023

stickyfiddle said:

These have been several years in the making and will be really really great guitars.

It’s hardly like Bourgeois is the first to make their own dread & OM clones, so I don’t really see the point in criticising that aspect (if that was the intent?)

My own “full fat” Mahogany D knocks spots off every modern Martin I’ve ever played, so I’m guessing these will be aimed at being similar to the regular modern Martin stuff but a big chunk cheaper. I look forward to trying one!

No criticism intended. Apart from 'info only' nature of thread, my intent if anything was a criticism of Martin's pricing and the availability of excellent alternatives.

I think what Bourgeois has done with these new models is really excellent and shows the ability of producers to innovate in their business models and production methods. To our benefit and theirs.

stickyfiddle · July 2023

Yeah I absolutely agree. I'm a little hesitant about buying yet more Chinese-made goods, but I have no doubt these will be great as I'm sure Dana wouldn't have let these come out with his name on unless they were really great. I would be very keen to try the dread - sounds great here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_MTYms5fxE

stickyfiddle · July 2023

There's also an interview here. I haven't watched yet but I'm betting it's a good way to spend 20 mins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZuNzRP1mWY

drofluf · July 2023

If I were in the market for something like that it wouldn’t put be off but it doesn’t show a lot of imagination in the design. Given that the shape of an acoustic and to a degree the size one way a manufacturer can make itself distinctive is by headstock and bridge shapes, choice of binding, purfling and fretboard markers.

I could see the point for a no-name brand but Bourgeois are well respected and established.

stickyfiddle · July 2023

drofluf said:

If I were in the market for something like that it wouldn’t put be off but it doesn’t show a lot of imagination in the design. Given that the shape of an acoustic and to a degree the size one way a manufacturer can make itself distinctive is by headstock and bridge shapes, choice of binding, purfling and fretboard markers.

I could see the point for a no-name brand but Bourgeois are well respected and established.

I don't think making pre-war-style Dreadnoughts and OMs is a market where making something look less traditional is going to win buyers.

Bourgeois has always been essentially about making a better Martin - the changes are to the finesse and bracing/tuning of the top, not changing the shape just to be different.

malcolmkindness · July 2023

It seems very environmentally unfriendly, shipping tops to China, shipping guitars back to the USA and then shipping them to dealers in the UK! Surely a high quality guitar could be made in the UK and sold for £2,500?

woody · July 2023

I think this is a fabulous collaboration.One of my very best acoustics is a Bourgeois om custom adi/madi,far superior to my ears to my old collings om2 At same time i have played/owned some fabulous eastmans.. To go back to Malcolms point,i have seen some lovely atkin guitars for sale new at around the 3k price point in uk,so the touchstones will have to be damn good.

earwighoney · July 2023

malcolmkindness said:

It seems very environmentally unfriendly, shipping tops to China, shipping guitars back to the USA and then shipping them to dealers in the UK!

I agree. I think it'd make more sense to train Eastman staff (be it in the States or in China) to make a guitar to Bourgeois spec and cut out all the shipping products back and forth.

I personally would have liked to have to seen the 10/20 series Eastman's with the Bourgeois neck joint. I've seen they are cropping up some higher models.

Winny_Pooh · July 2023

malcolmkindness said:

It seems very environmentally unfriendly, shipping tops to China, shipping guitars back to the USA and then shipping them to dealers in the UK! Surely a high quality guitar could be made in the UK and sold for £2,500?

How unfriendly? More unfriendly than driving a car (I do) with crude oil produced by a state dictatorship and shipped around the world to be processed then moved by truck. Or eating meat (I dont) which uses vast tracts of agricultural land inefficiently to feed animals. Have you read about Nitrogen pollution etc. Or how about any modern tech. Do you have children? (I dont) They are the biggest burden on an environmental system by virtue of just plain consumption.

I think we can afford to ship a few hundred guitar tops and guitars.

stickyfiddle · July 2023

If they're using North American spruce then it may be a neglgible difference anyway, just sending the blanks to Maine before they go to China, then sending less stuff to China. I don't know if this is the case - I would be interested to understand the details.

In any case, I would assume Bourgeois doesn't want to let their trade secrets in terms of process leave the company. If you teach Eastman to make tops as well as Bourgeois do there's no long-term partnership for Bourgeois because Eastman wouldn't need them

DavidR · July 2023

stickyfiddle said:

If they're using North American spruce then it may be a neglgible difference anyway, just sending the blanks to Maine before they go to China, then sending less stuff to China. I don't know if this is the case - I would be interested to understand the details.

In any case, I would assume Bourgeois doesn't want to let their trade secrets in terms of process leave the company. If you teach Eastman to make tops as well as Bourgeois do there's no long-term partnership for Bourgeois because Eastman wouldn't need them

That had struck me too. The Chinese can make tops of course and have been able to for an awfully long time!

Personally I think its got more to do with Bourgeois being able to put their name on the headstock so that the not inconsiderable number of people who feel only the US can make good acoustics ( and won't buy anything else) will buy one. And fair enough to a certain extent - the acoustic is an American 'invention' after all. But that attitude comes at a cost.

I personally think that, as an acoustic player, broadening your horizons to explore US and non-US instruments gives you a lot more fun.

Hopefully Bourgeois have had a say in the ethics of Eastman's wood sourcing. I think so. This from Bourgeois Guitars website when discussing the production philosophy for its link-up with Eastman in 'An important message from Dana Bourgeois' 10th Oct 2019........

"........Bourgeois will be responsible for design, materials selection, voicing, setup, and quality control, and Eastman will contribute efficient manufacturing and sourcing capabilities and expertise in global distribution. This project builds upon a successful model pioneered by Eastman and its other high end manufacturing partners."

Kilgore · July 2023

There is a lot of talk about the 'collaboration' between Bourgeois and Eastman.

Dana is staying on board as CEO of Bourgeois and Eastman is now the majority shareholder in Bourgeois. Is this correct?

The arrangement between them seems to be somewhat opaque.

goldtop · July 2023

Believe the marketing at your peril.

It's an Eastman with a badge and a marginal spec difference to sell the price tag.

tomjax · July 2023

Kilgore said:

There is a lot of talk about the 'collaboration' between Bourgeois and Eastman.

Dana is staying on board as CEO of Bourgeois and Eastman is now the majority shareholder in Bourgeois. Is this correct?

I think Dana has been pretty open about it, he's sold the company to Eastman, so I agree that the discussion about collaboration is a little moot.

stickyfiddle · July 2023

goldtop said:

Believe the marketing at your peril.

It's an Eastman with a badge and a marginal spec difference to sell the price tag.

I think this is fairly clear, but having played a bunch of bourgeois, and bought one there is definitely something in there that most Martins don’t have.

If (and it’s a big if!) some of that magic is in these guitars then it’s a very interesting proposition

Smellyfingers · July 2023

Regardless of the quality of the guitars it is now hard to think of a quality workshop that has not sold it's name to cheaper far Eastern mass manufacturers - maybe Collings, Atkin or Santa Cruz.

Whatever the reality, the perception can be that this sort of deal devalues the brand. There's just no way that Dana can exercise the sort of personal attention and QC that he did in his own workshop. And to be cynical: why would he? When he no longer owns the company.

camf · July 2023

stickyfiddle said:

goldtop said:

Believe the marketing at your peril.

It's an Eastman with a badge and a marginal spec difference to sell the price tag.

I think this is fairly clear, but having played a bunch of bourgeois, and bought one there is definitely something in there that most Martins don’t have.

If (and it’s a big if!) some of that magic is in these guitars then it’s a very interesting proposition

@stickyfiddle. I have a Bourgeois Custom OM which remains my favourite amongst a number of very fine guitars, but I’m afraid that one of the worst guitars I ever owned (or played) was a Bourgeois dread. Nicely made, as you’d expect, but lifeless to the point of dead, dead, dead. That wasn’t just my opinion. Mic’d up in a good studio its failings were pretty obvious to everyone and other guitars were selected. Very disappointing as it wasn’t cheap. That said, someone else really liked the sound. All it proves is that guitars are incredibly variable and entirely subjective.

stickyfiddle · July 2023

camf said:

stickyfiddle said:

goldtop said:

Believe the marketing at your peril.

It's an Eastman with a badge and a marginal spec difference to sell the price tag.

I think this is fairly clear, but having played a bunch of bourgeois, and bought one there is definitely something in there that most Martins don’t have.

If (and it’s a big if!) some of that magic is in these guitars then it’s a very interesting proposition

@stickyfiddle. I have a Bourgeois Custom OM which remains my favourite amongst a number of very fine guitars, but I’m afraid that one of the worst guitars I ever owned (or played) was a Bourgeois dread. Nicely made, as you’d expect, but lifeless to the point of dead, dead, dead. That wasn’t just my opinion. Mic’d up in a good studio its failings were pretty obvious to everyone and other guitars were selected. Very disappointing as it wasn’t cheap. That said, someone else really liked the sound. All it proves is that guitars are incredibly variable and entirely subjective.

Hey, I'm not going to argue with that - I'm sure every maker makes the odd stinker. But proportionally speaking I've played far more average-to-crappy Martins than Bourgeois (or Taylor or Collings for that matter).

camf · July 2023

I’m sure you’re right. Love my D35 though. :=)

goldtop · July 2023

camf said:

stickyfiddle said:

goldtop said:

Believe the marketing at your peril.

It's an Eastman with a badge and a marginal spec difference to sell the price tag.

I think this is fairly clear, but having played a bunch of bourgeois, and bought one there is definitely something in there that most Martins don’t have.

If (and it’s a big if!) some of that magic is in these guitars then it’s a very interesting proposition

@stickyfiddle. I have a Bourgeois Custom OM which remains my favourite amongst a number of very fine guitars, but I’m afraid that one of the worst guitars I ever owned (or played) was a Bourgeois dread. Nicely made, as you’d expect, but lifeless to the point of dead, dead, dead. That wasn’t just my opinion. Mic’d up in a good studio its failings were pretty obvious to everyone and other guitars were selected. Very disappointing as it wasn’t cheap. That said, someone else really liked the sound. All it proves is that guitars are incredibly variable and entirely subjective.

The weird thing to me about this ... why didn't Bourgeois notice this sound problem once it was built and simply bin it instead of shipping it?

If there's a risk that big, on a guitar with a price tag that big, it undermines that spiel: "we're experts with unforgiving standards, so you can be assured of premium quality". (My paraphrasing.)

camf · July 2023

goldtop said:

camf said:

stickyfiddle said:

goldtop said:

Believe the marketing at your peril.

It's an Eastman with a badge and a marginal spec difference to sell the price tag.

I think this is fairly clear, but having played a bunch of bourgeois, and bought one there is definitely something in there that most Martins don’t have.

If (and it’s a big if!) some of that magic is in these guitars then it’s a very interesting proposition

@stickyfiddle. I have a Bourgeois Custom OM which remains my favourite amongst a number of very fine guitars, but I’m afraid that one of the worst guitars I ever owned (or played) was a Bourgeois dread. Nicely made, as you’d expect, but lifeless to the point of dead, dead, dead. That wasn’t just my opinion. Mic’d up in a good studio its failings were pretty obvious to everyone and other guitars were selected. Very disappointing as it wasn’t cheap. That said, someone else really liked the sound. All it proves is that guitars are incredibly variable and entirely subjective.

The weird thing to me about this ... why didn't Bourgeois notice this sound problem once it was built and simply bin it instead of shipping it?

If there's a risk that big, on a guitar with a price tag that big, it undermines that spiel: "we're experts with unforgiving standards, so you can be assured of premium quality". (My paraphrasing.)

I didn’t like it (and neither did the folks in the studio). However, as I said, someone else really liked it, so it’s hard to say it was a terrible guitar, just that didn’t match my taste in guitars or the music I was making. We all hear things differently, so it’s pretty much impossible to generalise other than to say acoustic guitars are variable and you really need to try before you buy.

malcolmkindness · July 2023

Winny_Pooh said:

malcolmkindness said:

It seems very environmentally unfriendly, shipping tops to China, shipping guitars back to the USA and then shipping them to dealers in the UK! Surely a high quality guitar could be made in the UK and sold for £2,500?

How unfriendly? More unfriendly than driving a car (I do) with crude oil produced by a state dictatorship and shipped around the world to be processed then moved by truck. Or eating meat (I dont) which uses vast tracts of agricultural land inefficiently to feed animals. Have you read about Nitrogen pollution etc. Or how about any modern tech. Do you have children? (I dont) They are the biggest burden on an environmental system by virtue of just plain consumption.

I think we can afford to ship a few hundred guitar tops and guitars.

Of course we can afford to ship a few guitar tops and guitars around the world, I just think we would all be better off if we tried to keep things local.
I could debate all your other points, but I don't think this is an appropriate forum for it.

tomajoha · July 2023

camf said:

goldtop said:

camf said:

stickyfiddle said:

goldtop said:

Believe the marketing at your peril.

It's an Eastman with a badge and a marginal spec difference to sell the price tag.

I think this is fairly clear, but having played a bunch of bourgeois, and bought one there is definitely something in there that most Martins don’t have.

If (and it’s a big if!) some of that magic is in these guitars then it’s a very interesting proposition

@stickyfiddle. I have a Bourgeois Custom OM which remains my favourite amongst a number of very fine guitars, but I’m afraid that one of the worst guitars I ever owned (or played) was a Bourgeois dread. Nicely made, as you’d expect, but lifeless to the point of dead, dead, dead. That wasn’t just my opinion. Mic’d up in a good studio its failings were pretty obvious to everyone and other guitars were selected. Very disappointing as it wasn’t cheap. That said, someone else really liked the sound. All it proves is that guitars are incredibly variable and entirely subjective.

The weird thing to me about this ... why didn't Bourgeois notice this sound problem once it was built and simply bin it instead of shipping it?

If there's a risk that big, on a guitar with a price tag that big, it undermines that spiel: "we're experts with unforgiving standards, so you can be assured of premium quality". (My paraphrasing.)

I didn’t like it (and neither did the folks in the studio). However, as I said, someone else really liked it, so it’s hard to say it was a terrible guitar, just that didn’t match my taste in guitars or the music I was making. We all hear things differently, so it’s pretty much impossible to generalise other than to say acoustic guitars are variable and you really need to try before you buy.

I had a similar experience with their Slope D model - dead as a do do

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Well done Bourgeois!

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