Wired article: One Man’s Quest to Revive the Great American Vacuum Tube

vasselmeyer · June 2023

Quite an interesting article...a lot of cork-sniffing going on, but I thought it was interesting that the subject of the article is keen on moving production back to the US:

https://www.wired.com/story/one-mans-quest-to-revive-the-great-american-vacuum-tube/

normula1 · June 2023

Interesting read

Pabcrane · June 2023

A year or two ago (when Western had a bit of press about starting up production of these valves) I completed a survey questionnaire about what I wanted in valves, price, country of origin et cetera.

I remember saying that I was mostly concerned with quality assurance and I'd pay 150 - 175% of the cost for JJs, Tung Sol, EHx and branded Chinese ones et cetera. I doubt that they'd be near that price though.

I remember there was a noticeable vibe of the questionnaire; not quite xenophobic or Patriotic - but somewhere between the two, it seemed like being made in the U.S. was more important than the actual valve. When asked I wrote something along the lines of 'I don't mind where the valves are made, I just would like quality and consistency'

Sassafras · June 2023

Sounds like one man's quest to charge $1500 for a pair of valves.

Boromedic · June 2023

vasselmeyer said:

Quite an interesting article...a lot of cork-sniffing going on, but I thought it was interesting that the subject of the article is keen on moving production back to the US:
https://www.wired.com/story/one-mans-quest-to-revive-the-great-american-vacuum-tube/

Great article, and it would be nice to see it get off the ground, can't help but wonder though if the price is going to be the sticking point?

What I mean by that is that in reality we'd love to have a long lasting 12AX7 but what would you really want to pay for that? I mean I don't recall any modern 12AX7 failing in my amps at any point really except a NOS one that came with my Princeton. So if a Chinese/Russian made one lasts 2 years (conservative estimate), I could play guitar into my seventies and at current prices pick up enough of them for a few hundred quid? So at possibly around £1000 I'd still be up on the deal anyway?

Interesting to see them counter point it with Glenn Frickers video too, which suggests that there's no sound difference either. Would even the pros buy these expensive valves?

Suppose we'll see with time perhaps.

CraigGT · June 2023

Are you aware there's a UK version
https://brimaruk.com/menugbvp/great-british-valve-project-2/

There doesn't seem to have been many updates recently

Craig

digitalscream · June 2023

Boromedic said:

Interesting to see them counter point it with Glenn Frickers video too, which suggests that there's no sound difference either. Would even the pros buy these expensive valves?

Well, there are a couple of points there.

1 - Glenn's video is exclusively about playing over-saturated high-gain stuff. For anything else, his conclusions don't stand (and I have my doubts as to whether they're even valid for his use cases - for example, in my Jet City amps, there's a huge and noticeable difference between the Chinese ones they came with and EHX/Sovtek/etc, and an even more pronounced difference when using old CV4004s). He even discards volume differences, which is the whole point of what gain stages do - that points to a significant difference between the valves themselves, with higher headroom.

2 - Given that valve production exists almost solely in parts of the world that the west has a major problem with at the moment, the pros might not be given a choice if they want to use their old amps. I strongly suspect that most pros would just go digital at that point, though.

Boromedic · June 2023

digitalscream said:

Boromedic said:

Interesting to see them counter point it with Glenn Frickers video too, which suggests that there's no sound difference either. Would even the pros buy these expensive valves?

Well, there are a couple of points there.

1 - Glenn's video is exclusively about playing over-saturated high-gain stuff. For anything else, his conclusions don't stand (and I have my doubts as to whether they're even valid for his use cases - for example, in my Jet City amps, there's a huge and noticeable difference between the Chinese ones they came with and EHX/Sovtek/etc, and an even more pronounced difference when using old CV4004s). He even discards volume differences, which is the whole point of what gain stages do - that points to a significant difference between the valves themselves, with higher headroom.

2 - Given that valve production exists almost solely in parts of the world that the west has a major problem with at the moment, the pros might not be given a choice if they want to use their old amps. I strongly suspect that most pros would just go digital at that point, though.

I dunno, in the video he uses a 59 Fender Pro Reverb clean and if I'm honest on the null tests there wasn't any difference in sound, just output. Which suggests as you say that output is one thing but the "tone" argument is another one entirely. They were louder but sounded the same.

The valve production geography thing is a sticky wicket for sure.

flying_pie · June 2023

digitalscream said:

Boromedic said:

Interesting to see them counter point it with Glenn Frickers video too, which suggests that there's no sound difference either. Would even the pros buy these expensive valves?

Well, there are a couple of points there.

1 - Glenn's video is exclusively about playing over-saturated high-gain stuff. For anything else, his conclusions don't stand (and I have my doubts as to whether they're even valid for his use cases - for example, in my Jet City amps, there's a huge and noticeable difference between the Chinese ones they came with and EHX/Sovtek/etc, and an even more pronounced difference when using old CV4004s). He even discards volume differences, which is the whole point of what gain stages do - that points to a significant difference between the valves themselves, with higher headroom.

I always bear in mind that Glen is looking at things from an engineers point of view. He knows that it's all about the end recorded tone, and that speaker/mic combo, EQ, etc is more important. With tubes/pickups/etc there can be subtle differences but if you then adjust your amp/guitar tone or use a pedal then you've just undying the difference, never mind what the recording engineer could then do.

I think what he correctly points out is that the apparent vast differences don't really exist in a recording environment, and definitely not to the extent you'd believe from the cork sniffers

stylesforfree · June 2023

Absolute cork sniffing in abundance.

Valves have the smallest impact on the tone compared to the circuit and speaker, pickups etc.

I've recorded amps with cheap £10 Chinese bottom of the barrel 12AX7's that are simply labelled with "CHINA" on them and "nos" JANS, Mazda, RFT and Philips, brimars etc. The only valve I've noticed a considerable difference with is a Mullard CV492 which was only because of its output level.

I would say that old 5751's and 7025's are pretty interesting to experiment and try. But all in all, nos tubes are only worth it for the longevity. Even in that case I've had plenty of them go bad. JANS and Philips mainly.

Brimars last forever though and can take a pounding in the V1 position.

If you can find an old tube for £20-£25 from a reputable seller that hasn't been battered and is of full working order without leakages etc then it's worth it.

I recently bought an Edicron ECC83 that was listed as nos, in great condition and tested etc, hummed like a bastard in the V1 position.

So yeah. NOS definitely not all it's cracked up to be.

digitalscream · June 2023

flying_pie said:

digitalscream said:

Boromedic said:

Interesting to see them counter point it with Glenn Frickers video too, which suggests that there's no sound difference either. Would even the pros buy these expensive valves?

Well, there are a couple of points there.

1 - Glenn's video is exclusively about playing over-saturated high-gain stuff. For anything else, his conclusions don't stand (and I have my doubts as to whether they're even valid for his use cases - for example, in my Jet City amps, there's a huge and noticeable difference between the Chinese ones they came with and EHX/Sovtek/etc, and an even more pronounced difference when using old CV4004s). He even discards volume differences, which is the whole point of what gain stages do - that points to a significant difference between the valves themselves, with higher headroom.

I always bear in mind that Glen is looking at things from an engineers point of view. He knows that it's all about the end recorded tone, and that speaker/mic combo, EQ, etc is more important. With tubes/pickups/etc there can be subtle differences but if you then adjust your amp/guitar tone or use a pedal then you've just undying the difference, never mind what the recording engineer could then do.

I think what he correctly points out is that the apparent vast differences don't really exist in a recording environment, and definitely not to the extent you'd believe from the cork sniffers

Here's the thing, though - if you get a bit of your gain from a slightly-crunchy amp, and a lot of it from boosting and dirt pedals, then there can be a massive difference between valves.

That one that resulted in more volume? It's got higher headroom. Put it in V1, put your pedalboard in front of it, and it's going to behave totally differently to the previous valve you had in there that was nicely crunchy at the output of your pedals; in fact, you may not even be able to get the same level of dirt out of it at all. Similarly, if you had that driving your effects loop, it might entirely change the character of your delays and reverbs.

Can you make them the same by tweaking levels and EQ? Sure, but that's not the aim of the game here.

Going the other way, a setting that's got gain in abundance with a clear, chunky low end on that high-headroom valve can go all fuzzy and whump-y in the low end with valves with lower headroom.

These are all the cases that Glenn doesn't consider - and there are plenty of folk who get their heavy tones from mid-gain amps set slightly-crunchy with pedals in front of them. If they took his advice as gospel, they'd end up wasting a whole lot of money.

That's the trouble with his "scientific" analysis...he hasn't considered any way to get to the end result except the one he uses. It's just the same as the "all pickups sound the same" exercise he did.

Stratavarious · June 2023

Only preamp valve I can detect any real audible difference with is some of mid 60’s Mullard long plate ECC83s. There is a high treble airy presence and ring to them .. but they also tend to the microphonic. Design difference.. more coils and wire moving,

stylesforfree · June 2023

Stratavarious said:

Only preamp valve I can detect any real audible difference with is some of mid 60’s Mullard long plate ECC83s. There is a high treble airy presence and ring to them .. but they also tend to the microphonic. Design difference.. more coils and wire moving,

Indeed, there are absolutely very few valves that make a difference. Mullard and Brimar being the biggest difference for me. In terms of low noise and big output.

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Wired article: One Man’s Quest to Revive the Great American Vacuum Tube

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