Learning a piece/song - How would you tackle it?

AlbertC · May 2023

Ambitiously I've started trying to learn a fingerpicking ragtime/blues arrangement. It has several clearly defined sections.
How do you approach it...

a) learn a section at a time, trying to master it before moving on to the next, or
b) learn the whole thing start to finish then set about mastering it

BTW - it's called Blame It On The Blues. The arrangement is by (and video lesson) by Clinton Davis

drofluf · May 2023

I always remember the mantra my son’s piano teacher used - and what he reminds me when I’m learning something new.

Slowly, separately, sections.

The separate part is obviously not relevant to the guitar but breaking down into sections and tackling each one slowly works for me. It doesn’t need to be a “formal” section, just a few bars that flow together naturally.

CarpeDiem · May 2023

I learn a section at a time, in the sequence of the song. If a part is difficult, learn it before moving on such that you can play it; if you can’t play it up to speed keep practicing it whilst moving on to the next section. Keep playing the song from the start up to the latest section you are learning to consolidate learning and improve how it sounds when you play it.

Mellish · May 2023

Yep, section at a time is how I approach it too.
Slow it down, as @drofluf there said; go over and over it till you can do it without thinking, then on to the next section.

AlbertC · May 2023

Cheers all,
Yes, section at a time is what seemed to be the natural way to do it but I just wanted to get a consensus.

Keefy · May 2023

I learn a section at a time, but starting at the end. (Not my original idea btw.)

If you start learning at the beginning, you end up knowing the start well, but the piece becomes harder and less familiar as you go through it. You end up repeating the experience of getting stuck halfway through, so that’s what you learn to do.

When you start to learn something ending-first, finishing a new section gets you to a part that you already either know or are more familiar with.

digitalkettle · May 2023

You could try learning the final section first and work backwards from there…that way, the piece becomes more familiar as it progresses!

An awareness of the chords you’re playing over/through can help things feel familiar (especially for something like ragtime).

Whilst you’re still analysing, identify the bass/middle/top lines…even play them in isolation…you’ll hear stuff that you didn’t know was in there.

Also (and this might slow you down), learn it from the dots rather than tab! Painful as it is, I know this works for me…must be something to do with the deeper thought it requires. Get it on paper and pencil-in your decisions. Then, when you think you’re getting it memorised, test yourself by playing blind for a few phrases and then checking the score.

digitalkettle · May 2023

@Keefy you type faster than me!

Keefy · May 2023

digitalkettle said:

@Keefy you type faster than me!

Ha, only just!

I’m another that prefers dots to tab (cue massive thread derailment) and transcribing is part of my route to working out and learning something that isn’t already written down - but that’s just the way my brain works.

Full disclosure - I can’t fingerpick to save my life, the best you’ll get out of me is some half-arsed hybrid picking!

AlbertC · May 2023

@Keefy @digitalkettle Thanks, interesting angle. Maybe I'll think about that

thomasross20 · May 2023

Defo section at a time and not looking at screens. Close your eyes and feel/listen

Soupman · May 2023

I'm with @CarpeDiem . One step at a time then progress to the next section.
If it gets difficult, forget it & play something you know. (You can kid yourself you have years to learn it!!)

bertie · May 2023

yep - been doing this since this was all fields............................

one section (make it as "complete" as poss so it sounds right, ie not just any old bar) at a time - get it "note right" and then get it "tempo right" then move on

not a fan of not learning in sequential order, personally I think it makes you "lazy" especially if you work "out to in" so to speak, offers the temptation to leave bits out cos you feel like "hey Ive got the beginning, got the end, I'll just to the bits I like now"

Keefy · May 2023

bertie said:

yep - been doing this since this was all fields............................

…

not a fan of not learning in sequential order, personally I think it makes you "lazy" especially if you work "out to in" so to speak, offers the temptation to leave bits out cos you feel like "hey Ive got the beginning, got the end, I'll just to the bits I like now"

This never happens in my world - whatever I’m learning, it’s because I’ll be performing it in front of people before too long.

Kilgore · May 2023

I'll just echo what others have said. A section at a time, as Bertie said try to make it a 'complete' section.

Know the chords you're picking and note the recurring patterns.

I find when first learning a piece it can help to isolate the bass and melody. Hold the chords but just play through the bass line a few times. Then play the melody notes a few times.

Lestratcaster · May 2023

Break it up into sections and get each part first then put two sections together so it can flow from to the next without mistakes. Memorise progressions or the riff.

I have to transcribe 10 songs per week so I can learn songs pretty quick, though alot of them are the generic pop 4-chord progression following the piano type ones.

blobb · May 2023

I'll go against the grain here. I don't learn many other 'songs' but every now and again I do (and pretty much instantly forget it again, but that's beside the point). My approach now is to put the song on repeat, then just start playing along. Obviously, the first run through is miles off. Eventually though, if you 'pretend' you are actually playing correctly, it all falls into place.

It's an NLP technique. Think about it, you must be moving your hands / fingers about in the same way as it's played in the original right? So if you are noodling along and you hear it go somewhere - you need to go somewhere too. First run is nonsense, second run isn't quite nonsense. Your hands are moving roughly in accordance with the song. Closer but still not 100%. Go again, and again, and again.

If you visualise yourself actually being able to play it, then you can play it. Ok, let's assume you can keep up with it speed wise etc.. if not you need to work on that bit of technique for a bit then come back.

So I'm the opposite of you lot. Lol.

joeW · May 2023

Sections - work backwards - sing as you go. This is what works best for me

Alterlifeson · May 2023

Sections, I had never even thought of starting at the end before reading this thread. Seems like a sensible idea though. The only trouble for me is the satisfaction of being able to play the piece would take longer to get to, I like learning the start and then being able to play some of it well before moving on.

bertie · May 2023

Alterlifeson said:

Sections, I had never even thought of starting at the end before reading this thread. Seems like a sensible idea though. .

serious, not loaded/sarchy question - why ?

digitalkettle · May 2023

bertie said:

Alterlifeson said:

Sections, I had never even thought of starting at the end before reading this thread. Seems like a sensible idea though. .

serious, not loaded/sarchy question - why ?

The idea is that you're headed towards the most familiar bits which might help when you're under pressure.

bertie · May 2023

digitalkettle said:

bertie said:

Alterlifeson said:

Sections, I had never even thought of starting at the end before reading this thread. Seems like a sensible idea though. .

serious, not loaded/sarchy question - why ?

The idea is that you're headed towards the most familiar bits which might help when you're under pressure.

ah gotcha

as gigging/performing live is way way behind me, pressure is a distant worry

digitalkettle · May 2023

bertie said:

digitalkettle said:

bertie said:

Alterlifeson said:

Sections, I had never even thought of starting at the end before reading this thread. Seems like a sensible idea though. .

serious, not loaded/sarchy question - why ?

The idea is that you're headed towards the most familiar bits which might help when you're under pressure.

ah gotcha

as gigging/performing live is way way behind me, pressure is a distant worry

I've only played a handful of 'acoustic guitar to a small gathering' gigs...terrifying!
Fingerpicked/classical...no wiggle room...all the right notes required in the right order...I'm sweating now just thinking about it

So much easier to do electric guitar widdling/improv to a large room of sweaty blokes!

BillDL · May 2023

I'm with @blobb on this one. I will play a recording of the song and play along with it in as many different ways as I can until I have the FEEL of the song firmly locked into my head. Doing this allows me to play chordally and discover what inversions fit in with the recording the best, and then playing melody lines with some slides and bends allows me to get a good feel for the embellishments that can be used with the chords. If I then go and look at the tab, in this case fingerpicked or hybrid picked, I find it a lot easier to feel the rhythmic movement while figuring out how to get all the notes. I rarely play anything exactly like a recording or tab anyway though.

I used to sit and struggle with the tab for some of the old classics as played by Marcel Dadi and it all just felt like numbers on strings with lines, and without a defined cadence, until I experimented by playing along with the recordings in different styles. It all began to come together while I was locked into that feel. I would find it really hard to play that stuff again, but I think it would come back to me a lot faster than it did learning it from scratch.

Roland · May 2023

Keefy said:

I learn a section at a time, but starting at the end. (Not my original idea btw.)

This. The only time that I don’t start at the end is when there’s a basic picking pattern which develops, and gets more complicated, with each section.

bertie · May 2023

Roland said:

Keefy said:

I learn a section at a time, but starting at the end. (Not my original idea btw.)

This. The only time that I don’t start at the end is when there’s a basic picking pattern which develops, and gets more complicated, with each section.

BillDL said:

I used to sit and struggle with the tab for some of the old classics as played by Marcel Dadi

Le Derviche Tourneur - now that's one you can start at the end , middle or beginning (note wise anyway)
or start and the beginning and its a self lesson in gaining tempo

Blueingreen · May 2023

I do it a bit different, sections but I usually move on to the next section before the first section is quite there. The thinking is if I've got section A 80 or 90% of the way there, I will start on B, and once I get to the point I'm getting on top of B I'll start running them together - so I'm now practising A again and getting it closer to 100%.

I'm not advocating this, or suggesting it's better, I honestly don't know, it's just what I've always done.

MooseAboot · June 2023

I've tackled a few Travis type songs recently which really challenged me. There's loads of good advice above.

A few things I might add.

I learned a lot from how counting is done on the drums. Drummers count 1234 for the beat. They count 1and2and3...for eighths.
And for 16ths they count 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e...
I found it really helped to slow things right down and work on where the notes were falling whilst counting them out in this way. Particularly if you're working off tabs which cant communicate timing.

A lot of Travis is muscle memory. There's only so many patterns and variations. Eg it took me a long time to get a pull off on a melody line to land on the same beat as a bass line. But once you have the muscle memory it's much easier for a lot of future work.

If you're following a tab and a video tutorial. Consider just following the video and writing your own tab as you learn it. Something about that process helps break it down and make it easier for me anyway.

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Learning a piece/song - How would you tackle it?

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