1976 = "Vintage" ... yer right

Tannin · May 2023

I just saw a 1976 Martin 000-28 advertised for $7995 AUD (= £4269 or about £4700 including VAT). No, not by some crack-smoking bedroom flipper, a reputable Sydney consignment dealer. (In fact the place I bought my little leftie Maton from.)

As I understand it, the 1970s were bad, bad years - not just for Martin, Gibson too, and Fender. Over the preceding decades, Martin had slowly, step-by-step morphed their builds away from the iconic classic forms which used thin tops and very light, hand-carved bracing, and necessarily had to be made by highly skilled, experienced craftsmen. To cut costs and especially to reduce warranty returns, Martin switched, bit by bit, to thicker timbers and much heavier bracing. This allowed them to use lower-skilled workers and made it possible to live with the sloppy tolerances of their worn-out equipment.

By mid-to-late 20th Century they had long since run out of the prime cut Brazillian Rosewood of the 1930s and were reduced to using the dregs, or else switching to Indian Rosewood.

I'm not sure when the worst Martin years were, but I don't think 1976 is regarded as a good year. And here I see a 1976 000-28 (a model you can buy brand new for $5419 AUD) for asking $7995. Link here: https://www.premierguitars.com.au/collections/acoustic/products/vintage-martin-000-28-usa-1976

The body text rabbits on about Brazilian Rosewood - ahh, I thought, that's why they are asking at least $3500 too much. Nope. It is ordinary Indian Rosewood, same as a new one.

"Vintage". Yer right. Fact is, it's just old. For the same money, I'd have a new one any day.

BillDL · May 2023

The equivalent of a pretty nice bottle of £20 wine bought in the mid 70s for £3.50 and left unopened until now being sold for £100 because of its age.

DrCornelius · May 2023

Some of the worst guitars I’ve played were made in the 70s but some of the best I’ve owned were from the 70s too. There may have been a higher percentage of dogs made during the decade but there were also some crackers too. Who cannot fail to love a proper 1972 Thinline Tele for example ?

ICBM · May 2023

You would have to try it next to a new one, or maybe more usefully a 20-year-old one, to know which is better.

The 70s one doesn’t have a truss rod for one thing... some people think that makes them sound better - most people would prefer to be able to adjust the neck.

Based on my ‘71 D12-35, they certainly did make some very good guitars in the 70s.

Gassage · May 2023

A 1970 Austin 1100 is a vintage car.

Doesn't mean it's less shit than it's always been. It's still a gas guzzlling rubbish handling rustbucket.

munckee · May 2023

I think everyone knows that vintage means up until and including 1974 and everything afterwards is rubbish. Coincidentally that means my 74 tele custom is vintage…

guitarjack66 · May 2023

I was 10 years old in 1976 and I certainly don't consider myself vintage!

Soupman · May 2023

@guitarjack66 you shouldn't even be allowed a view on the subject. You're just a youngster.

Tannin · May 2023

guitarjack66 said:

I was 10 years old in 1976 and I certainly don't consider myself vintage!

Agreed. More of a veteran.

(runs and hides)

guitarjack66 · May 2023

Soupman said:

@guitarjack66 you shouldn't even be allowed a view on the subject. You're just a youngster.

Why thank you kind Sir. (added to my Christmas Card list

ESBlonde · May 2023

Vintage is just old. One thing to consider is that at some time in its long life it’s been in the hands of someone that has sorted/optimised the playability and maybe refined the bridge and reset the neck. You won’t know unless you play it, but don’t write guitars off because they were made at a certain time in history. There are some popular well known songs recorded on ‘boat anchors’ and ‘micro tilt 3 bolt necks’ as well as modded by now lowly regarded John Birch and the like. Yes it was a generally bad era but some decent stuff snuck through just as there are some real dogs made in the golden era by the big brands.

Tannin · May 2023

^ Yes to all of that, but asking $2500 more than a new one?

As we say here in Oz, tell 'im he's dreamin.

guitarjack66 · May 2023

Tannin said:

^ Yes to all of that, but asking $2500 more than a new one?

As we say here in Oz, tell 'im he's dreamin.

I remember the actor with the moustache from The Sullivans.

Tannin · May 2023

Michael Keaton. I didn't know he was in the Sulivans (a series I never watched). He has been in a million things over the years but his role in The Castle (above) defines him. Extraordinary movie. It was made in 3 days on a budget of basically nothing and instantly gained the iconic status it retains to this day.

Soupman · May 2023

^Hmm. Michael Keating....he doesn't look like Batman to me.....

guitarjack66 · May 2023

Tannin said:

Michael Keaton. I didn't know he was in the Sulivans (a series I never watched). He has been in a million things over the years but his role in The Castle (above) defines him. Extraordinary movie. It was made in 3 days on a budget of basically nothing and instantly gained the iconic status it retains to this day.

The Sullivans was about the only aussie tv programme on uk tv in the 1970s. I wish it still was!

Zoonyboy · May 2023

Martin temporarily stopped offering their lifetime warranty around the mid-70s. It didn't inspire any confidence, so they brought it back.

Tannin · May 2023

^ Interesting. Mind you, since they don't offer a proper warranty anywhere outside the US a bit academic but interesting nevertheless.

(Here in Oz, you could take them to Consumer Affairs - or probably just threaten to as every retailer and importer knows what the law is by now - and have the instrument fixed anyway. Possibly the EU has similar laws.)

maltingsaudio · May 2023

In that case here’s my “vintage” 1976 Fender 12 String with original receipt still worth what I paid for it £60 !

ICBM · May 2023

maltingsaudio said:

In that case here’s my “vintage” 1976 Fender 12 String with original receipt still worth what I paid for it £60 !

I would argue that’s a genuine vintage guitar. It’s irrelevant that it wasn’t expensive at the time and still isn’t - you won’t find any modern plywood guitar that sounds like it does now.

It’s worth a fair bit more than you paid for it too, although not quite in real terms. (£60 in 1976 is now £377 in today’s prices.)

Tannin · May 2023

Fender / CBS, contrary to their usual practice, sold a number of truly excellent acoustic guitars back in the 1970s. They didn't make them, of course - Fender has never had the skills or the capability to manufacture acoustic guitars worth owning - but bought them in from Japanese manufacturers.

I have mentioned my brother's CBS 12-string from about 1973 here before: an outstanding instrument made by (probably ) Tokai, badged CBS, and sold for about $700, which was two or three weeks' pay, so not cheap. All-solid, of course, and as good today as it ever was (though it had a neck reset and partial fret bob in 2020). 50 years before neck reset for a 12-string isn't bad going. And it's always had lovely tone and playability.

ICBM · May 2023

Tannin said:

Fender has never had the skills or the capability to manufacture acoustic guitars worth owning

The 60s ones are actually very nice, and were built by Fender themselves.

BlueStrat · May 2023

Vintage just means old with a price tag.

1976 is 47 years old. That’s old.

I played a 1971 strat last year and after hearing so many bad things about 70s guitars I expected it to be a dog, but it was a beautiful guitar; feather light, gorgeously aged finish and played perfectly

Jez6345789 · May 2023

@Tannin ;
You are way more of an acoustic aficionado than me but if the consignment seller is usually fair then maybe this is one of those things where the consignee has pushed for the max, could be a recent family loss so they want the most, and sure the store has advised as this would be the total upper end and unlikely to sell but they have said list at that and we might take offers.

Ultimately from my perspective only considering Martin from a narrow window of pre-war Brazilian Rosewood wide-cut Adirondack etc probably does a huge disservice to a ton of good Martin guitars.

One of the more interesting aspects of the whole golden age theory to me is usually about 6 out of 10 blindfolded experts can't tell Brazilian from Indian in a modern built Martin using the old processes and spec HHglue etc. Once aging comes in they can't tell Brazilian from Cocobolo and least of all old growth larger tree EIR, even the old Koa Martins can confuse in a blindfold test and they have a distinctive sound.

`I am sure for whatever reason that guitar is overpriced is it a piece of shit who knows it looks like a nice bit of old-growth rosewood not seeing such nice colour and patterns on standards these days.

YMMV

Tannin · May 2023

ICBM said:

Tannin said:

Fender has never had the skills or the capability to manufacture acoustic guitars worth owning

The 60s ones are actually very nice, and were built by Fender themselves.

Interesting. I have never heard of or seen them.

Fender certainly proved incapable of making good acoustics when they tried to move Guild production to their Corona (California) factory early this century, then had to hurriedly buy a company which did have the expertise (Tacoma) and shift production to their plant in Washington State.

They will never be forgiven for subsequently closing Tacoma down and pissing all that hard-won expertise and valuable IP up against the wall. We can at least be thankful that, having rooted Guild, they at least sold the remains of the company off to new owners who have nurtured it and brought it back to something like its former glory.

Jez6345789 · May 2023

Tannin said:

ICBM said:

Tannin said:

Fender has never had the skills or the capability to manufacture acoustic guitars worth owning

The 60s ones are actually very nice, and were built by Fender themselves.

Interesting. I have never heard of or seen them.

Fender certainly proved incapable of making good acoustics when they tried to move Guild production to their Corona (California) factory early this century, then had to hurriedly buy a company which did have the expertise (Tacoma) and shift production to their plant in Washington State.

They will never be forgiven for subsequently closing Tacoma down and pissing all that hard-won expertise and valuable IP up against the wall. We can at least be thankful that, having rooted Guild, they at least sold the remains of the company off to new owners who have nurtured it and brought it back to something like its former glory.

I think the Tacoma story is a more nuanced set of business coincidences and perfect storms definitely they could not build Guild in Corona that is just too much of a low-level factory environment. Just machine and process assembly.

But this quick run through sums it up best.

Jez6345789 · May 2023

Not sure there was much to save listening to Mr Frampton bang out his hits on a Tacoma one he still loves to write on.

guitarjack66 · May 2023

I don't think 'brands' and 'bad' are mutually exclusive. You either take a chance or play a few and ignore the headstock logo.

Tannin · May 2023

I don't accept that account. Some of it is demonstrably wrong. In particular, it is nonsense to claim that the Tacoma plant couldn't get finishes right. Tacoma guitars had a history of orange peel finish, yes indeed, but the exact same factory then started building Guild-branded guitars alongside the Tacoma models, and the Guild guitars have never had a finish problem, not from the Tacoma plant or any other.

So WTF was Fender doing in (say) 2005 when my Thunderhawk was made? The Thunderhawk has the famous Tacoma orange peel - but my Guild, made in that same factory at about the same time, does not! Where was their management skill? (Ans: they didn't have any. It was a massive screwup all the way down the line.)

And why did they not sell off that priceless IP if they didn't want to keep on making any of those very special guitars? They were happy enough to sell Guild off and keep the brand alive, why not Tacoma?

I wanted a second baritone, same as my Thumderhawk. Could not buy one for love or money. In the meantime I've been offered (and declined) double what I paid for it. I ended up commissioning a local luthier to custom-build me one.

Jez6345789 · May 2023

I think the delaminating issues people talk about with Tacoma and in your case, not a similar age Guild probably comes down to something as simple as Guild would have been built as a new physical production line using some all or none of the Tacoma equipment. So possibly it could have been a contamination thing on the Tacoma line but not on the Guild for a while. Contamination often seems to be an issue in commercial production spraying. Maybe the guild guys brought the finish from Corona that had been bought in for the Guild builds it never happened so got shipped up, we will never know but is as likely as any reason.

Not sure management of skills was ever that joined up.

As for the Tacoma IP probably again comes down to not being worth a lot at the time no offers to buy the brand as said may be they thought they were going to do something with it. did any of their bracing wing stuff even get patented, looking at trademarks Tacoma was left to die in 2014.

Tannin · May 2023

And what a disgrace that was! Awesome guitars. I dunno about their orthodox lines, but I have never seen anything even on the same planet as the Thunderhawk line. I bought mine more-or-less by chance and it was only after I'd had it for a while that I realised what a unique gem it is. I've played every other baritone I could get my hands on, and nothing even comes close.

The point of management skills (or rather, lack of them) is that Fender had people who knew how to do finishes right not only in the organisation but actually on-site, and yet they failed to join the dots. Someone should have been fired for that.

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1976 = "Vintage" ... yer right

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