Cole Clark

Moe_Zambeek · May 2023

I tried one of the thinlines from Cole Clark recently and was strangely drawn to it, even though it was in no way a canon or even a ‘normal’ acoustic volume really. The oddball woods and aesthetics have grown on me in recent years and I think I’d quite like an Angel with the oz woods. The open pore finish on the neck was quite comfortable and the whole thing had an interesting uniqueness about it.

Obviously I’m not daft enough to actually buy one new given how dire the resale will be…but I’ll be keeping a lookout for a used one I reckon.

Any users / fans / owners on the board?

ALR · May 2023

Not an owner or a player, but I was in Acoustic and Bass Centre in Melbourne a while back and they had loads of them in there, they all looked absolutely beautiful instruments. I don't know if I play acoustic enough (or well enough) to ever justify one, but if I did I'd love to have one. I'd be a bit worried about them acclimatising to the weather here in the UK though!

Tannin · May 2023

Hi @Moe_Zambeek, you want to watch out for that Cole Clark bloke. https://www.wirralglobe.co.uk/news/23408498.cole-clark-wanted-connection-domestic-offences/
But seriously now, the thinline Cole Clarks (no relation to the chap above!) are specifically designed to be amplified stage guitars. They are not intended to be played acoustically as stand-alone instruments.
Cole Clark guitars generally are very stage-oriented. Even the full-size models are mostly (but not always) fairly quiet as acoustics go. (Some of the dreadnoughts can be loud. My Cole Clark 12-string dreadnought in Bunya and Blackwood was not far off deafening.)
No-one here in Australia would understand the two-page Fretboard thread currently running about third-party acoustic pickups. What is the point of all that faffing about with aftermarket stuff? You just buy a Cole Clark or a Maton and plug straight into the PA. Job done. (Even the Yanks who are notoriously agin anything not made in the USA say that.)

Tannin · May 2023

THE COMPANY

The company was founded in 2001 by a group of investors and named after two of them: Brad Clark and Adam Cole. Both have long since left the company, which is now run by another of the original partners, Miles Jackson. To begin with Cole Clark did all sorts of weird stuff, a lot of it quite experimental, some of it downright odd - e.g., Strat clones with violin headstocks. Go figure.) After about 10 years of mixed fortunes, several things happened within a fairly short space of time. Brad Clarke left and was replaced by Miles Jackson, they dropped their non-core products (electric guitars, ukuleles) in order to concentrate on what they did best (acoustic guitars for stage use), and they had a dreadful factory fire which destroyed all their major equipment.

This was the turning point. They considered closing down but in the end the remaining partners had a whip round, invested heavily in CNC machinery, and restarted production. Since then Cole Clark has been consistently successful, growing steadily and building a reputation for fair value and excellent quality control. They are the second biggest guitar manufacturer in Australia now, around about the same size as Lowden, and going well.

They have a very strong commitment to sustainable sourcing. I don't know of a company anywhere in the world as thoroughly committed to responsible sourcing of timbers. Save for existing stocks, which they are running down and not replacing, they no longer use rosewood, ebony, mahogany, or any other tropical timber. Ebony and rosewood fretboards have been replaced by sustainable local timbers, mostly River She-oak.

Above: River She-oak fretboard from my Cole Clark 12-string.

Spruce tops have given way to Bunya, Blackwood, Silky Oak, and a whole range of wonderfully unexpected things. They scour the countryside for the unexpected, finding, for example, a huge old Cedar of Lebanon planted 150 years ago in a country churchyard now needing to be removed to save damage to the buildings, plantation grown Khaya from Queensland, magnificent Redwoods in country towns grown far too big for the blocks that they are planted on, and so on. And of course, they continue to use the two traditional mainstays of Australian guitar making, Queensland Maple and Blackwood.

thomasross20 · May 2023

That's interesting re focus on being stage guitars. I tried a bunch and they didn't grab me as much as the matons

bertie · May 2023

thomasross20 said:

That's interesting re focus on being stage guitars. I tried a bunch and they didn't grab me as much wanting to put my fingers in a vice

ditto

just horrid to play - just felt dull, lifeless and made from balsa wood like a kids toy almost - plugged in tho, was probably the best/natural sounding Ive heard

Moe_Zambeek · May 2023

Good info, thanks Tannin. If only they were in the affordable price range here

I think they’re too expensive for what you get and the resale is awful, but the ones I try felt good in their own way and I like the choice of sustainable timbers.

I like a Maton too, although I have found them a little rough around the edges - in a pleasing way, contra Gibsons which just often feel badly made - and a used Messiah was on my radar for a while.

Tannin · May 2023

THE GUITARS

Cole Clark go further in the designed-for-amplification direction than Maton. Cole Clark are quite prepared to sacrifice acoustic tone if that's what is needed to get the amplified performance just so. They don't do that with all of their instruments but most go some way in that direction and a few (including the thinline model you played) are very much stage guitars. Contrast with Maton who see good amplifed sound as no reason not to have great acoustic tone.

Having said that, Cole Clark make some lovely acoustic instruments too. I bought my Huon Pine and Silky Maple Angel 3 in 2020 purely for acoustic use on the strength of its wonderful playability (it is the only guitar I own which has never been set up or adjusted in any way because it plays perfectly exactly as-is) and its beautiful, subtle tone. It is a quiet guitar as acoustics go and none the worse for that. It is my go-to every night after dinner when I sit by the window watching the wildlife (quolls, possums, wallabies, sometimes a bandicoot) and play on and off until bedtime without disturbing Mrs Tannin too much.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/221126_162714_5DSxc.jpg

Above: Angel 3 in Huon Pine and Silky Maple, manufactured 2019.

I have played other knock-your-socks off Cole Clarks, notably a particular all-Blackwood Angel 2 in 2021. I decided to go back and buy that one a few days later but it was sold. Drat! The other day in another thread I mentioned playing another one in the same construction. I wouldn't mind owning that one either, it is a very good instrument, but the one in 2021 was an absolute corker. I could easily go silly and buy one example of an Angel in each of various lovely Cole Clark timbers - Silky Oak, Cedar of Lebanon, Redwood, and of course all-Blackwood. But not in Bunya and Blackwood - not because those timbers are no good or because Cole Clark don't do them well, simply because the Maton's EA80 "Australian" model in those same timbers is quite outstanding.

Cole Clark guitars usually have thickish tops and backs but very light bracing. Tops and backs are both internally carved a bit like an archtop. This is one of the things the CNC does best - doing all that carving by hand would cost a fortune! Most (but not all) Cole Clarks are moderately heavily built and very good at resisting feedback when amplified. Every guitar is Pleked and factory quality control is generally very good. With the high-end models, it is outstanding.

Some people make a bit of noise about the Spanish heel construction, saying how wonderful it is (untrue) or how bad it is (equally untrue). It really doesn't matter a damn whether you build a guitar with a Spanish heel (Cole Clark in Oz, Stoll in Germany, every classical guitar made anywhere), with a dovetail (Martin, Gibson, Maton, lots of others), or a bolt-on neck (Taylor, Collings, Tacoma, Huss and Dalton, McPherson, Furch, many others). All three systems work just fine. You can build a great guitar (or a bad one) using any of those methods. People - mostly dovetail or Spanish heel supporters - yammer on and on about the sound quality difference. Bullshit. There isn't any difference. A good guitar is a good guitar. I have seven: 3 dovetails, 3 bolt-ons, and a Spanish heel. Spanish heels tend to stand up to the year-on-year stresses of string tension for longer, but are the most difficult to repair. Dovetails are medium-difficult to repair but the most likely to need it. With a bolt-on, who cares? Remove the neck, swap the shim over, bolt it back together again.

All Cole Clark necks are made from Queensland Maple (except for a handful of 3 Series models made using Silky Maple, which is a close relative). Note that these are Flindersia species and nothing at all to do with the maples of the Northern Hemisphere. Quensland Maple is its own thing, but to give you a rough idea, think mahogany or walnut, not maple (which is heavier and harder).

I have always admired the elegant (also strong and practical) headstock-neck joint they use. It wouldn't be commercially practicable without the CNC, of course.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/221126_162803_5DSc.jpg

Above: Cole Clark's standard neck-headstock joint. The neck in this instance is Silky Maple, the headstock Blackwood.

In theory, Cole Clark's 1 and 2 and 3 Series models are all the same apart from trim and bling and choice of timbers. They all go down the same CNC line. In reality, they take more trouble and do more hand-finishing with the 3 Series guitars. I always think the 1 Series instruments, which have no body binding, look very odd, like a man with his eyebrows shaved off, and I used to think the 3 Series ones, for all their expert build and lovely timbers, had too much bling, but I have grown used to mine and wouldn't have it any other way now.

Tannin · May 2023

PRICES AND RESALE

Resale value is normally very good. Example, I paid $2400 new for my 12-string, sold it a year and a bit later for $1950. (I could have tried harder and got a little more but I'm lazy.)

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/210221_110732_1D4c.jpg

At right: Cole Clark FL2 12-string, Bunya and Blackwood. Others are (from left) Maton Messiah, Maton SRS60C custom, Cole Clark Angel 3 and Tacoma Thunderhawk. I post this picture every six months or so when some silly person (such as you) gives me an excuse.

However in the UK you are labouring under a triple handicap. First, you pay a very high rate of sales tax. Everything costs more.

Second, Cole Clark guitars are can be rather expensive in your neck of the woods. Last time I checked, sometime last year, Cole Clark's traditional crazy-high UK pricing wasn't as obvious as it has been in years gone by. I put that down to post-Covid weirdness with prices for all sorts of things all over the place. But on checking again this morning I'm seeing the cheapest CCs (not counting the Minis, which like similar mini guitars from (almost) every other company are pretty awful things. Like a fart in the drawing room, a gentleman ignores mini guitars and pretends that nothing happened) ...

Anyway, the cheapest Bunya/Queensland Maple FL1 models are £1299 at Guitar Guitar, which by the time you deduct for your high VAT rate is about the same as the price I'd pay here in Oz. (£1299 /1.2 = £1082. Compare with $2299 /1.1 = $2090 = £1115. Actually slightly cheaper than in Oz!

(Guitar Guitar are also throwing out no less than three left-handed 1 Series 12-strings in Bunya and Queensland Maple for £999 each! Whichever purchasing manager ordered so many niche-market (left-handed) models of a niche-market (12-string) type of a niche-market (Cole Clark) brand is probably browsing Seek right now thinking of a promising career in the office-cleaning trade.)

Moving onto the mainstream midrange, an all-Blackwood 2 Series 12-string is £1699 = £1415 before VAT as compared to the same thing in Adelaide at $2749 = $2450 before GST = £1307. In other words only about £100 more than Oz prices.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/210221_111033_1D4c.jpg

A Redwood and Blackwood Angel 2 is £1799 at Guitar Guitar. Less VAT that is £1499. Compare to the same thing here in Hobart for $2599, which is $2362 before GST = £1260 or £240 over the odds. That's getting back towards the traditional UK markup. BTW, I played the one in Hobart one earlier this week: details here: https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/3562582/#Comment_3562582

At the high end, Guitar Guitar have a Cedar of Lebanon and Blackwood Angel 3 which would be a lovely thing indeed for £3499. That is £2915 before VAT. In Brisbane they are $4499 = $4090 before GST = £2182, meaning that Guitar Guitar are asking £733 over the odds. Ouch!

So let's just say "Second, Cole Clark guitars may or may not be very expensive in your neck of the woods". You are still paying overs for the high end models (though less than in years gone by) but the mainstream ones aren't bad and the entry level prices are very good indeed. (Well, comparatively speaking. Three years ago, the 1 Series you buy for $2299 in Oz today was around $1200 if you shopped around, maybe $1499 if you didn't, but maybe £1499 in the UK.)

Third, resale in the UK seems to be spectacularly poor, similar to (for example) Larrivee before @thomasross20's one-man campaign to buy everything in sight and double the average price. Poor resale is normal for good quality, little-known brands with small market share. When my Australian executor goes to sell my Brook one day (hopefully in the far future!) he'll get bugger all for it because it's not a common or well-known make here. People will say "It's not a Maton or a Martin or a Gibson or a Cole Clark or even a Taylor, I'm not paying top dollar for that weird thing." Same with cars - try selling a second-hand Citroen here in Oz, you'll get peanuts.

Image: http://tannin.net.au/other/dpr/220505_120346_1D4c.jpg

Above: Angel 3 headstock

thomasross20 · May 2023

Haha great collection there, Tannin (btw my fave is far left)

Moe_Zambeek · May 2023

Another oddity - every single Angel or FL at GG is cutaway. Suggests they went for them only for the ‘stage guitar’ angle.

Your Angel is a beaut Tannin. Lovely.

Tannin · May 2023

Cole Clark has taken to making all their stock guitars as cutaways since about last year. Only the Mastergrade (effectively "4 Series") models come without cutaway. But you can always order any model any way you like.

guitarjack66 · May 2023

Tannin said:

PRICES AND RESALE

Resale value is normally very good. Example, I paid $2400 new for my 12-string, sold it a year and a bit later for $1950. (I could have tried harder and got a little more but I'm lazy.)

At right: Cole Clark FL2 12-string, Bunya and Blackwood. Others are (from left) Maton Messiah, Maton SRS60C custom, Cole Clark Angel 3 and Tacoma Thunderhawk. I post this picture every six months or so when some silly person (such as you) gives me an excuse.

However in the UK you are labouring under a triple handicap. First, you pay a very high rate of sales tax. Everything costs more.

Second, Cole Clark guitars are can be rather expensive in your neck of the woods. Last time I checked, sometime last year, Cole Clark's traditional crazy-high UK pricing wasn't as obvious as it has been in years gone by. I put that down to post-Covid weirdness with prices for all sorts of things all over the place. But on checking again this morning I'm seeing the cheapest CCs (not counting the Minis, which like similar mini guitars from (almost) every other company are pretty awful things. Like a fart in the drawing room, a gentleman ignores mini guitars and pretends that nothing happened) ...

Anyway, the cheapest Bunya/Queensland Maple FL1 models are £1299 at Guitar Guitar, which by the time you deduct for your high VAT rate is about the same as the price I'd pay here in Oz. (£1299 /1.2 = £1082. Compare with $2299 /1.1 = $2090 = £1115. Actually slightly cheaper than in Oz!

(Guitar Guitar are also throwing out no less than three left-handed 1 Series 12-strings in Bunya and Queensland Maple for £999 each! Whichever purchasing manager ordered so many niche-market (left-handed) models of a niche-market (12-string) type of a niche-market (Cole Clark) brand is probably browsing Seek right now thinking of a promising career in the office-cleaning trade.)

Moving onto the mainstream midrange, an all-Blackwood 2 Series 12-string is £1699 = £1415 before VAT as compared to the same thing in Adelaide at $2749 = $2450 before GST = £1307. In other words only about £100 more than Oz prices.

A Redwood and Blackwood Angel 2 is £1799 at Guitar Guitar. Less VAT that is £1499. Compare to the same thing here in Hobart for $2599, which is $2362 before GST = £1260 or £240 over the odds. That's getting back towards the traditional UK markup. BTW, I played the one in Hobart one earlier this week: details here: https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/3562582/#Comment_3562582

At the high end, Guitar Guitar have a Cedar of Lebanon and Blackwood Angel 3 which would be a lovely thing indeed for £3499. That is £2915 before VAT. In Brisbane they are $4499 = $4090 before GST = £2182, meaning that Guitar Guitar are asking £733 over the odds. Ouch!

So let's just say "Second, Cole Clark guitars may or may not be very expensive in your neck of the woods". You are still paying overs for the high end models (though less than in years gone by) but the mainstream ones aren't bad and the entry level prices are very good indeed. (Well, comparatively speaking. Three years ago, the 1 Series you buy for $2299 in Oz today was around $1200 if you shopped around, maybe $1499 if you didn't, but maybe £1499 in the UK.)

Third, resale in the UK seems to be spectacularly poor, similar to (for example) Larrivee before @thomasross20's one-man campaign to buy everything in sight and double the average price. Poor resale is normal for good quality, little-known brands with small market share. When my Australian executor goes to sell my Brook one day (hopefully in the far future!) he'll get bugger all for it because it's not a common or well-known make here. People will say "It's not a Maton or a Martin or a Gibson or a Cole Clark or even a Taylor, I'm not paying top dollar for that weird thing." Same with cars - try selling a second-hand Citroen here in Oz, you'll get peanuts.

Above: Angel 3 headstock

Nor should you get anything for a Citroen! Terrible cars.

Soupman · May 2023

@Tannin I enjoyed that Cole Clark video, great ethos.
If your collection was hanging on a shop wall, my first pick to try would be the Angel 3, followed by the Messiah.
Those tops in the video had me drooling.

Tannin · May 2023

thomasross20 said:

Haha great collection there, Tannin (btw my fave is far left)

Cheers mate. I've made some changes since then. Added a Guild CO-2 and a single luthier Mineur concert-size guitar, sold the 12-string, and added a beautiful Maton WA May.

The Guild is going to go (making way for my new Brook, which is a year or so away) and there is a custom-made baritone half-finished which should be finished in spring (your autumn).

If another one has to go to make room (this is subject to negotiation!) the Maton Messiah might be the next one out the door. It's a lovely guitar but it's probably the one I would miss least. I'm a bit over rosewood.

Pretty much everyone who visits reckons the WA May is the pick of the bunch, with opinion divided as to #2: the Mineur, the Angel 3 and the Messiah all get votes. The Thunderhawk baritone, by common consent, stands alone as a completely different instrument. But don't neglect the unassuming cedar and Queensland Maple Maton dreadnought. It's nowhere near as flashy (looks-wise or sound-wise) as some of the others and cost a lot less than most of them, but if you had to pick just one guitar out of my lot, one to play in all moods and every different style, it would probably be that one.

Mellish · May 2023

Nice collection, mate.

I find, though, that when you post outdoors pics, I'm looking at the scenery, as much as the guitars. Oz is my favourite place.

Tannin · May 2023

Cheers mate. Just for you then.

guitarjack66 · May 2023

Tannin said:

Cheers mate. Just for you then.

I have a Fistful of Dollars theme music running through my head now.

Tannin · May 2023

Wrong continent. You are only 15,000 kilometres out. Try this one.

BillDL · May 2023

I am left wondering why this guy is just roaming around in the bush.

Tannin · May 2023

Well spotted. He was, of course, taking pictures of the wildlife.

http://tannin.net.au/page.php?image=090607-155120rfc.jpg

Mellish · May 2023

Tannin said:

Cheers mate. Just for you then.

Makes me want to be there

BillDL · May 2023

That windy dirt road immediately reminds me of this cute wee animation that you can share with somebody

guitarjack66 · May 2023

Tannin said:

Wrong continent. You are only 15,000 kilometres out. Try this one.

I know. But that is what that landscape evokes thoughts of.

Moe_Zambeek · June 2023

Tried an Angel2 all Blackwood today. Nicely made guitar, very very quiet when fingerpicked. Sounded good strummed but a little toppy and again pretty quiet. Very easy to play and well setup. Basically everything everyone says they are which was a little disappointing as I was hoping for more!

There was a small issue on the back where the 2 panels met in the middle, where either the back was starting to separate or the two halves of the back had not been properly planed flat, one side was maybe a half a mm proud of the other for a section of maybe 2-3cms near the bottom of the guitar.

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