Acoustic Recording

thomasross20 · April 2023

Probably done to death but I've never been great at recording acoustic sound. I've a Zoom H2n, Rode NT, SM58... And an old Toneport UX2 interface... DAW is Tracktion.

Are those mics ok (SM58 perhaps not)?

I think I need directional condenser so as not to record audio spill from behind (lol.....). Zoom H2n has that iirc but need to check how to connect to interface.

I think the interface can have a noise floor which need to be wary of. Ideally my old toneport UX2 does the job, but if not .. will need something new.

Two mics with one pointed at the neck , other the body (never the soundhole?) ? If one... Just point at the neck?

ToneControl · April 2023

thomasross20 said:

Probably done to death but I've never been great at recording acoustic sound. I've a Zoom H2n, Rode NT, SM58... And an old Toneport UX2 interface... DAW is Tracktion.

Are those mics ok (SM58 perhaps not)?

I think I need directional condenser so as not to record audio spill from behind (lol.....). Zoom H2n has that iirc but need to check how to connect to interface.

I think the interface can have a noise floor which need to be wary of. Ideally my old toneport UX2 does the job, but if not .. will need something new.

Two mics with one pointed at the neck , other the body (never the soundhole?) ? If one... Just point at the neck?

are you listening through headphones while you record?
That's the best way to get a good mic position

I usually aim one at the 12th fret, and one at the the soundboard below the bridge

I use a matched pair, Sontronics STC-1s
Sontronics STC-1 | condenser microphone

There's plenty of good mics out there

thomasross20 · April 2023

Oh wow those are relatively inexpensive - nice!! I've heard that about pointing them at those positions (probably to minimise phasing) and I think next at soundhole as is woofy.?

Good point yes, need to get headphones out and experiment..

Tannin · April 2023

This video from Paul Davids strikes me as a very useful place to start.

BUT -

Three years ago I decided to start recording. I asked friends for advice and bought a few basics like an audio interface and mic stands. A very good mate gave me a magnificent Microtech Geffel worth more than some of my guitars ....

.... and I haven't done anything at all other than put that lovely microphone carefully away in the spare room. Shame on me.

On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays I plead lack of space, this house hasn't got a suitable place to set up for recording and won't until we get the extension built.

On Tuesdays, Fridays and weekends, I explain that my playing skills are improving so rapidly that recording is pointless at the moment - whatever the tune is, I'll be able to play it much better next month, so what's the point in recording it this month? This is actually true so far as it goes, but fails to mention that, if $1000 is a fair, average standard, a 10% improvement on $1.23 is not significant to anyone except me.

Stuckfast · April 2023

ToneControl said:

are you listening through headphones while you record?
That's the best way to get a good mic position

I don't think I necessarily agree with this. Better to spend some time trying out a few different positions and then carefully comparing the results over speakers after you have level-matched them. If you try to optimise the position with headphones on it's too tempting to just choose the one that delivers the loudest or widest sound in the moment.

A 58 wouldn't be many people's first choice for acoustic guitar but actually isn't a terrible option if you need a mic to put close up.

The painful truth I've learned over the years is that 90 percent of getting a good sound is about the performance. If you're not getting the sound you want, changing the way you play is likely to get you closer faster than moving mics around.

thomasross20 · April 2023

Will follow up later, some decent tips in here I was just reading, in particular re the money shot placement and keeping dual mic distance the same to minimise phasing

https://mxlmics.com/7-critical-tips-on-how-to-mic-an-acoustic-guitar/#:~:text=Do not place the microphone,fire hose for sound waves.

Danny1969 · April 2023

There's so many different ways to record acoustics and it really depends on what you are going for. Is the acoustic going to be a solo instrument or is it just going to provide backing to a track with other instruments.

Start in a smallish room with the most soft furnishing .... rooms with a lot of bare walls won't sound great, especially if plasterboard. Condenser mic's pick up everything so needs to be a quiet place.

My go to is the tried and tested large condenser lower and more towards the back of the guitar .... say where the controls would be if it was electric. If it's an expensive guitar that has a thin resonet top then that's often where the sound is best. To find out wave your hand in between that area and the mic and you will hear a wah wah effect.

Then I normally use a small more focussed condenser near the 12th fret ... like an SM81 or clone. This is useful for detail in small amounts.

As @Stuckfast said though ... the results depend on the performance. I'm not a very good acoustic player so my recordings generally suck, other people I've recorded have sounded amazing with one mic positioned in front of them with very little adjustment.

thermionic · April 2023

I learnt a lot about miking guitars (and amps) from this book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Recording-Guitar-Bass-Getting-Record/dp/0879307307

Winny_Pooh · April 2023

Once I bought a good valve LDC it made acoustic recordings easy. Placed 10-15 cm away from the 12th fret and angled to face the soundhole. Behind and below the bridge can work.

If you have to buy a dynamic then an Audix i5 is loads better than a 57 and a senn MD421 even nicer.

Ribbons work for hard strummed backing parts.

Pencil condensers are usually too detailed (by design) and bright and tend to exaggerate string and pick noise. If you're using a single or stereo pair you need to pull them away from the guitar to take top end off and then the room sound is even more crucial. For the pro rooms IMO who use km53s on bluegrass players or record classical guitar.

Good large diaphragm valve condensers have a happy blend of detail and top end with smoothness/subtle distortion/compression from the valve stage. It doesnt work the same adding a valve preamp or emulation to a FET/transformerless condenser.

Cirrus · April 2023

Acoustics are great instruments for showing up the weaknesses in a mic - they're full range, really dynamic with fast transients and lots of body resonances that can be problematic.

In my experience, a cheap condenser will initially wow with detail but I end up noticing all the midrange resonances - everything from whompy low mids to ringing upper mids, right up to zingy stuff around 8k and up, and I end up notching out those annoyances, but you throw out the tone baby with the resonance bathwater very quickly.

I reckon decent dynamics are a better bet unless you have a really decent condenser or get lucky with one where the mic's resonances don't line up with the instrument's own resonances. RE20, SM7b, M88... they don't have the top end extension but I think they tend to do a better job through the midrange, which is where the tone lives.

Regarding the SM58, there's a nice story from when Thom Yorke tracked the acoustic guitar to "Fake Plastic Trees". The guitar was recorded with a U67 valve mic & SM57, but... as John Leckie says;

I cracked the whip and sent Thom out in studio on his own with a click and he has a 57 and U67 on his guitar, U47 on vocal and as soon as he starts the 67 packs up with hum and fizzing so the acoustic is just 57

When I listen to that recording, I don't feel like it matters in the slightest that the acoustic's just recorded with an SM57. The music and emotive performance are what matter. Your SM58 is essentially the same mic, especially if you take the metal grill off the top.

thermionic · April 2023

Yeah, Radiohead were recording a pop song, but @thomasross20 wants to show us the subtle tonewood differences in his collection of Larrivee OMs!

LastMantra · April 2023

The best recording I managed to get was a condenser at about a foot away from where the neck meets the body. That was in a room with some natural reverb.

I also found that I was getting a lot of pick sounds and ended up using a stiff nylon pick rather than the soft sharks fin type I had been used to. That took a wee bit of getting used to but worth it IMO.

BigLicks67 · April 2023

To be fair I have heard some decent quality finger style vids on youtube using the Zoom h2n. I'm assuming there is a lot going on in the mix down that gives it that bit of shine.
If you have a Rode NT5 at the neck meets body position that should be enough to get decent results, but it is not easy, I've been trying to get a sound that I have been happy with for years and failing.

DavidR · April 2023

Why not get a Zoom with 2 mics?

Zoom H4n : Amazon.co.uk: Musical Instruments & DJ

I use a much older version

Zoom H4 - Recorders

and I do think it brings some depth to tracks, pre-editing even. Certainly less faff.

goldtop · April 2023

Zoom H1/H2/H4 series work as class compliant audio interfaces, too. IIRC, the sampling rate is limited to 44.1/48kHz.

TheOtherDennis · April 2023

Tannin said:

On Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays I plead lack of space, this house hasn't got a suitable place to set up for recording and won't until we get the extension built.

On Tuesdays, Fridays and weekends, I explain that my playing skills are improving so rapidly that recording is pointless at the moment - whatever the tune is, I'll be able to play it much better next month, so what's the point in recording it this month? This is actually true so far as it goes, but fails to mention that, if $1000 is a fair, average standard, a 10% improvement on $1.23 is not significant to anyone except me.

I have a lot of sympathy with that, other than the idea that I'll be getting any better anytime soon :-S

thomasross20 · April 2023

thermionic said:

Yeah, Radiohead were recording a pop song, but @thomasross20 wants to show us the subtle tonewood differences in his collection of Larrivee OMs!

Haha

So the Zoom.... Good or no good?
Absolutely rammed at work but will 100% be referring back to this. Not got time to be some pro sound engineer, just need the gear and basic setup then can get rocking

TheBigDipper · April 2023

I'm not a recording engineer and I don't like being one if I'm also the artists (like wot recording yourself on an acoustic actually is). I've got a couple of inexpensive Rode small diaphragm condensers, and an SE large diaphragm condenser and an SM58 (of course!). And a Tascam DR-22WL handheld.

The best results I get (for my level of attention) recording me on an acoustic at home is with an iPhone XR into VoiceMemo, storing it as a WAV file. Then I import the WAV into Logic and add some gloss. It means I can focus on performance rather than recording.

It's as convenient as the Tascam but I suspect there is some processing going on as well that means it sounds better to me. I've also put both next to each other, made one recording (on two devices) and compared the results.

I could set up mics properly and all that, but by then I can't be bothered to play anything and I've lost interest.

Oh, I've also had decent results using the pair of Rodes to capture the live sound in the room from a few feet away and also recorded the K&K Pure Mini pickup into another track. Blended properly, they sound nice. The same as it sounded in the room? No idea! :-)

ToneControl · April 2023

TheBigDipper said:

I'm not a recording engineer and I don't like being one if I'm also the artists (like wot recording yourself on an acoustic actually is). I've got a couple of inexpensive Rode small diaphragm condensers, and an SE large diaphragm condenser and an SM58 (of course!). And a Tascam DR-22WL handheld.

The best results I get (for my level of attention) recording me on an acoustic at home is with an iPhone XR into VoiceMemo, storing it as a WAV file. Then I import the WAV into Logic and add some gloss. It means I can focus on performance rather than recording.

It's as convenient as the Tascam but I suspect there is some processing going on as well that means it sounds better to me. I've also put both next to each other, made one recording (on two devices) and compared the results.

I could set up mics properly and all that, but by then I can't be bothered to play anything and I've lost interest.

Oh, I've also had decent results using the pair of Rodes to capture the live sound in the room from a few feet away and also recorded the K&K Pure Mini pickup into another track. Blended properly, they sound nice. The same as it sounded in the room? No idea! :-)

For anyone who doesn't know, be careful mixing in pickups with mics: have a look at the waveforms next to each other and make sure they are not out of phase, or at least press the phase reversal switch on the DI channel to check what difference it makes

https://behindthespeakers.com/fix-phase-cancellation/

Shadow · April 2023

The simplest way to make a fairly decent (to my ears) recording is into a phone using the Dolby On app.

Stuckfast · April 2023

ToneControl said:

For anyone who doesn't know, be careful mixing in pickups with mics: have a look at the waveforms next to each other and make sure they are not out of phase, or at least press the phase reversal switch on the DI channel to check what difference it makes

https://behindthespeakers.com/fix-phase-cancellation/

The sound delivered by most pickups is so different from the miked sound that they usually can't really be said to be in or out of phase with one another. But it's definitely worth experimenting with reversing polarity or delaying the DI sound by a few samples to see what effect it has.

DavidR · April 2023

Zoom H4 in .wav format on SD card using stereo mics on Zoom-------->SD to PC------->download .wav file-------->Edit with Audacity freeware--------> send to SoundCloud adding artwork.

Mainly for family and friends. Never had any copyright issues with SoundCloud.

I'm really old. If I can do this, anyone can. Simple and free recording and broadcasting to The Whole World!! :-) Compared to when I was young, the ability to do this seems amazing to me. To you mere yoofs it won't be though. Main expense was initial outlay on Zoom. They are not cheap.

Only fing is, I do find recording quite stressful. Not sure I enjoy doing it any more. Silly innit.

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